Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:46 pm

But punches to the body do work..though Art Rabesa will tell you and show you how the open hand is more devastating.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:00 pm

To really grasp the slapping potential...one needs to see someone well trained in such skills.

Taking a class with Wes Tasker, who also shows some interesting ways to condition the palm [iron palm training]...is really an experience...

He is scary with the power and speed of his palm strikes.

HIV, Hepatitis and other blood diseases are in ambush when punching someone in the face.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Stryke » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:42 pm

Henry's ideas on positioning make sense , you just have to get to this kind of science .

practice as realistic as possible , it is the key when your operant conditioning , at best we seperate the technical and the emotional in training , then combine them.

So, let's train properly, and the Kanshiwa Bunkai is excellent for training against multiple opponents, even if we have to follow the kata movements for the sake of doing a bunkai.


Utilise the precision movements/mechanics , but dont get stuck in the pattern , let the violence dictate .

we can come up with a hundred defences to a straight karate punch , but what are we really at that point training ? a realistic attack ? , maybe in a karate dojo or competition.

however the lessons that can be layered form movement , and strategy are much deeper.

can you use this strategy against more varied HAPV.

Can you use this same move when someone has grabbed you ? , is a straight punch so much different from a straight kick , from a headbut ? , do I need a different move against a grab and punch ?

are you responding to an attack or a pre-contact que ?

Is the kata saying this then this then this , or perhaps this or this or this ? can you mix and match according to need ? or are you looking for a specific counter ?

Fist or shoken or palm , which weapon does it matter ? what do you want to ingrain , is the issue which weapon ? or is the issue how you will access a target when the opponent isnt extending one karate punch and standing like a robot ? (for the record it's important to have real weapons developed and have chosen your best ones, excellent information Van)

Is a bunkai about self defence ?

I would suggest a move away from a shoken is as much fashion and focus as safety Maybe it takes more cunning , doesn't suit a boxing match , or truly just an inability to deliver it , you need to be much closer and much more targeted , and very good at your entry on force to make such a precise move work safely , but when you can it's so devastating.

But of course kata adapt and change with the generations and needs .

It's about what your training, and what your training for.

before we proceed with this discussion it would help if we could visualize the ugliness of street fights and what can happen to any us and our training.

So lets look at some of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGm9Ex6LimM
Last edited by Stryke on Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Stryke » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:55 pm

I sure most have seen this stuff , this is old material of Ricks that he was good enough to let out for free , and worth taking a look at to see how creative and usefull these kata can be when you get into them.

He decided to do kanshiwa and see how it could be related to just takedowns.

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/kanshiwa-takedown-bunkai-part-1/
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:21 am

Rick Wilson does good work and he is a great researcher/explorer of the concepts of the system.

Every rote move of the standard kata we know has a myriad of applications, and the Okinawan masters are on record saying this is what is really expected of a good student.

We have a student of Bob Campbell, who will perform a variation of this bunkai that is just fantastic. George may have this recorded on video.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:58 am

Henry wrote
I have also used the front snap kick aiming at the groin in two encounters and missed both times (probably due to adrenaline, yes and my lack of practice, blah blah blah--).

And don't forget, you don't want your kick getting caught in a multiple opponent situation.


I agree. The front kick or side kick, as good as they are when they connect the right target from the right distance and from a solid platform, can hurt someone...but you cannot be sure of it as an adrenalized opponent, big and strong, can absorb those kicks, especially if we over -extend them in the chaos.

Reason why I prefer the 'chopping' low axe kicks to the legs/inside/outside...with a conditioned shin...and not with the foot.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:14 am

Art Rabesa wrote this on his site
SHOCK WAVE:

The shock wave is that physiological occurrence that follows a hard blow to the body. Trauma is actually the correct term for this. When the blow remains in contact with the target, followed by the power base, funny things happen.

The first thing that usually occurs is a moment of nothingness. That is the time between the impact and the recognition of the impact by the opponent, or attacker, or whoever is on the nasty end of the strike. Sometimes this nothingness lasts a very short time, so the continuation of strikes is important. Other times that nothingness remains that way.

This wave will stop all action. This wave can occur anywhere the blow strikes. Even blows to the arms and legs can create this shock wave through the body.

That is why you must practice getting your strikes on the impact area and taking them through. This is practiced on the training pads and bag only.

Remember, put the strike on the target, letting the full power take the velocity of the impact deep into the hitting area.

If you decide to practice any of the material in this training manual please take it by the numbers. Start with the stationary punch. Go slow at first and don't strive for that power right away. Keep checking the photos and their description as you train. I've been at this for almost thirty years and I'm still looking for things that will enable me to hit faster and harder.

Please remember that when any of this material frustrates you. The power position must be understood and maintained first before any strikes occur. I'm sure I've mentioned that already but its important to remember.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:42 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUFKqBdoABs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PR4GKGlD0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm2CQVh5etA

If we look at these performances of the bunkai, especially the one done with master Senaga in the picture...many will wonder where the bunkai application of blocking a right middle punch and a left low punch, and then countering with a back fist...came from.

Same with the third punch in the beginning of Kanshiwa which in the bunkai many of us punch to the face or palm heel to the face.

In all the bunkai demos above there is no such 'one two punches' and no 'third punch or palm heel to the face.

So why do some of us do it, and where did it come from?
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby hthom » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:27 pm

Hello everyone, hello Van,

Haven't been here for a while. Hope you are all well.

I just remembered that I posted something about Kanshiwa on this site some time ago, but posted a different one on the Face Book page of IUKF. Hope you don't mind that I copy it here also:

Kanshiwa Bunkai

Kanshiwas, a so called “beginners kata”, should really receive much more credits and respect than it is generally given. It is more of a fighting kata than most people think.

I am not disrespecting anyone here. There is always more than one way to look at or do just about anything. I would just like to introduce an alternate way of doing Kashiwa Bunkai. If you have already been doing the same or similar Kanshiwa Bunkai as I am suggesting, good for you. Here it goes:

I am an advocate of “think outside of the box” on the use of kata techniques. Based in my opinion, Bunkais are not meant to be used in the same sequence and movements in a fight as in the katas.

The Bunkais must be done as realistically as possible. You fight the way you practice. Use the appropriate movement no matter where it is or how it is done in the katas. They must be done with speed, power and realism, and in ways that you feel the most effective and natural when being executed. If you do not feel comfortable with any technique when you are working out, you should not use it in real self defense because most likely they will not be effective or nowhere in your mind during the high stress situation.

Kanshiwas Bunkai addresses multiple opponents and is an excellent self defense training tool if performed with the proper mindset. Typically it is performed with three attackers standing in front of the defender (you) in the shape of a triangle. You are now being surrounded. Bad!

In a real situation one should never allow this scenario to happen if at all possible. No matter which one of the three thugs you deal with first, the other two won’t just stand around and wait for you as typically done in demonstrations. You can count on the other two to attack or grab you immediately while you are dealing with the first thug, and well, no need to say more.

Let’s say that you are facing a potential attack from three guys in what is typically done in Kanshiwa Bunkai, the utmost important thing at this point, whether for the Bunkai or in a street, is to immediately get out of the position by quickly stepping to the left or right of the three, depends on who on the left or right you want to take out first, and face the multiple attackers as lineally as possible. Now you are dealing with one attacker at a time instead of three, and the attackers are blocking each other and by the one in front, the one you need to take out first. This should be the thing to do while dealing with multiple attackers whether you are on a street or in a dojo.

We have been told a million times that as martial artists, we should only defend and not be the attacker. Umm, you are in a situation where you can not afford to think like a nice guy. If all you think of is defense and wait for the attack you will most likely be attacked by all three and end up injured in no time. So, what is a nice guy (or girl) to do?

The response is “preemptive attack”. Sometimes you have to attack to defend yourself.

Now that you are facing one instead of being surrounded by several, if following movements of the kata as typically done you would do a left block then a right punch, then a right block and a left punch, and —-. Except I wouldn’t suggest you to wait for the punch so you can do the nice pretty block. We are talking about being attacked by three thugs here, no courtesy or proper Sanchin form is necessary.

So, immediately after you positioned yourself in front of the first thug in line, you attack/rip his eyes/face with a modified Wa-uke and follow immediately with a full power strike to his head or solar plex, then go right for the next thug in line, then the third. Every punch should be executed with full knock out power to take out the thug because there are several of them here. Go for the one punch knockout. This is one reason our punches in katas should be performed with full power. You fight the way you train.

We are talking about realistic defense, so whether the punches are to the head or chest depends on your confidence of your punches. I feel more confident with using a knock out head punch at this point. Just because the kata punches to the chest area is no reason for being inflexible.

Speaking of being flexible, next item is the elbow strike. I advise not to do the elbow strike to the opponent’s side or chest in a semi-horse stance just because that is how it is done in a kata. Elbow his head or neck in a boxing or Sanchin stance if it is more effective for you. It is for me. Everyone is a little different so you do your Bunkai movements the way you feel the most effective, and not because it is the way performed in the kata. But if you feel more effective elbowing his chest area, it is your choice.

As to the kicks, you can do high kicks or chest kicks if you wish but bases on Kanshiwa, they are supposed to be low kicks. Move around a bit if necessary. Move to his left or right to a position where you can bust his knee or injure his calf with your low kick.

The important thing to remember, when you perform a Bunkai regardless of which kata, do it realistically. In the world of self defense training, nothing is more dangerous than building false confidence with unrealistic training.

The above is just my opinion. Please visit Youtube for some of my videos. (HT)
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:51 pm

Hi Henry,
Good to hear from you, all is well so far, glad you also are OK. Your post here is right on target in all your observations.

>>Bunkais are not meant to be used in the same sequence and movements in a fight as in the katas.<<

I agree, the movements should be seen as ‘adaptable concepts’ to ever changing defensive situations…the real skill is in reading what’s about to go down and to sense the right tactical response action, such as you write.

>> We have been told a million times that as martial artists, we should only defend and not be the attacker.<<

Generally this is true but only in situations that have been read properly and with a sense that not striking first is the right thing to do.

I think that the many teachers who insist there no first strike in karate have never been in a situation involving multiple attackers…or even a serious assailant hell bent in wanting to beat them to a pulp.

I think where these teachers miss the boat is in not recognizing when the attack has already begun.

I wrote before here that I was involved in multiple assailants attack once in south America…these 5 punks had impact weapons and stones. I was cut-off by them in an open field on my way home, and I was weaponless.

It was a bad situation, and what saved me was to attack first and seriously injure two of them…momentarily shocking them…which gave me the chance to bolt away to safety.

Another bad situation you might recall, happened at the Beverly summer camp, about 30 years ago, when several karate punks from Florida invaded Bob Bethoney’s room challenging us seniors to meet them ‘at dawn’ by the beach so they could show us ‘real Uechi’…this was their attempt at intimidation…

Thing is they barely made it out of the room…Art Rabesa got up from his chair and knocked one of them out…

I kicked and head butted another who had gotten in fighting position preparing to hit me…then kicked both legs from under him and slammed his face into the floor.

One of his buddies tried to circle me, but Rabesa caught him on the fly with a snap punch to his temple that laid him out on the floor with his eyes blinking, I thought Art had killed him.

These were the same guys who were heckling the seniors on stage when George was talking about the rules of a Uechi tournament.

That was a situation where striking first was the right thing to do or the punks would have been emboldened.

This is what self defense is all about. You either ##### or get off the pot.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby hthom » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:34 pm

Nice to be young and can do crazy things all over again. Nowadays I can hardly beat on Bob for 15 minutes without wearing out for the day.

Just curious, which Florida Uechi group was that?

And speaking of some instructors teaching self defense situations or real fighting without ever being in one, they are not doing their students any favors.

Take care, Van.

Henry
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:03 pm

>>Just curious, which Florida Uechi group was that?<<

Don't really know, it was a rogue group, they were doing drugs, they busted up all the glass panels in the dorm doors. George knows who they were.

Art and me were coming back from a walk after dinner when a young student ran up to us to warn those guys were looking for us two for a beating.

They had originally entered Bobby Bethoney's room and he had thrown them out. They were now roaming looking for Art and me, and eventually invaded the room again with an ultimatum. The way they were hit by Art and me could have caused them brain damage and we would have ended up in jail and at the end of a civil damages suit.

You never know what's going to happen next.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:06 pm

Good to read this again.

Art Rabesa wrote this on his site:

SHOCK WAVE:

The shock wave is that physiological occurrence that follows a hard blow to the body. Trauma is actually the correct term for this. When the blow remains in contact with the target, followed by the power base, funny things happen.

The first thing that usually occurs is a moment of nothingness. That is the time between the impact and the recognition of the impact by the opponent, or attacker, or whoever is on the nasty end of the strike. Sometimes this nothingness lasts a very short time, so the continuation of strikes is important. Other times that nothingness remains that way.

This wave will stop all action. This wave can occur anywhere the blow strikes. Even blows to the arms and legs can create this shock wave through the body.

That is why you must practice getting your strikes on the impact area and taking them through. This is practiced on the training pads and bag only.

Remember, put the strike on the target, letting the full power take the velocity of the impact deep into the hitting area.

If you decide to practice any of the material in this training manual please take it by the numbers. Start with the stationary punch. Go slow at first and don't strive for that power right away. Keep checking the photos and their description as you train. I've been at this for almost thirty years and I'm still looking for things that will enable me to hit faster and harder.

Please remember that when any of this material frustrates you. The power position must be understood and maintained first before any strikes occur. I'm sure I've mentioned that already but its important to remember.
Van
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