Good talk on blocks

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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:05 am

T Rose »

Great topic!

First, what defines an attack? Borrowing from the world of lethal force: "when intent and ability are present".

Paraphrased quite a bit but I think the idea is presented. The attack begins when the intention and ability are there, at least as far as you are concerned.

Second, very few MAs are schooled in the idea that you have to 'fend' before you can defend or offend.

You have to fend off an attack, get into the game before your MAs really kick in. This is in reply to Tony Blauer's above remark on adrenalin..

later
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:06 am

gjkhoury »

Hey guys! Great topic!

Van-sensei: The "where and how" real fights start is a study Coach Blauer calls the "demystification of the street fight".

My understanding of the principle is that we MUST avoid discussing the "secret ninja" attacks the deepest (and perhaps most deluded) parts of our minds imagine, and stick to the stats.

Keep it real, in other words. As Coach says: Think "Probable, not POSSIBLE attacks"!

To facilitate the conversation, let’s focus on the "How" question first: How will YOUR next fight start? When this is answered, my feeling is the “where” starts to lose (some) relevance.

Last: Tray, your observation is the crux of Coach Blauer's SPEAR system. To the best of my knowledge, NO ONE (besides you) acknowledges the importance of this "obvious" fact: YOU WILL NEED TO FLINCH/FEND in an attack unless you are 100% psychologically, emotionally and physically prepared for it.

And, if you are standing at that level of readiness, you probably shouldn't/don't need to fight anyway!

Think about it!

Gary
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:08 am

Thanks Gary, great concept. Makes you painfully aware of the fact that if you are not a troublemaker and do all you can to avoid getting suckered into a confrontation, then your only real life “engagements” will be out of the flinch reflex, thus the need to realistically prepare to respond from the flinch.

But I still find it difficult to control the “dark man” inside of me when “pushed” _ I think this is true of most of us even as we spout verbal and defuse defense concepts.

I would be willing to bet that the majority of us “Martial artists” would be hopelessly “emotionally high jacked” when push comes to shove.

I’d like to see defuse and defend if some punk grabs a martial artist’s wife’s tits as he escorts her back into the main mall from the ladies room corridor.

There is only one reflex there: I call it "man reflex"
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:11 am

Hutch »

Great subject for analysis!

As to the "where" of starting fights, Brett's comments on the stadium can be extrapolated to include any place (likely public) where you do not control the traffic of people that will be present.

My most recent experience was in a movie theatre where I politely asked a patron behind me to be quiet...he was interferring with my enjoyment of the movie.

That has happened to all of us in similar venues. This chap had been drinking (no surprise), and while he remained quiet for the rest of the movie, he proceeded to "interview" me as soon as the lights came up; a common event in the "how" category of starting fights.

"You got something to say to me now buddy?"

Seeking to de-fuse the situation, I responded politely, but firmly, that I was just trying to enjoy the movie.

He responded: "Do you want go outside and discuss it now?"

At this point my wife, a sweet petite lady, stepped outside her usual demure self and said to him, "You are SUCH an a$$hole!" I counted that as a bad move in the "de-fusing" process.

Fortunately, the agressor's wife/girlfriend was embarrassed that my wife took such notice of her husband/boyfriend and promptly grabbed him by the arm and said "You're coming with me!" and they left!

All the while I was thinking about how awkward this was going to be with so many people around and it was going to be interesting to have to wrestle around with this guy over theatre-type seating.

It ended suddenly (happily from my point of view), but the adrenaline had had time to kick in - the interview was brief but was enough of a warning - I was ready to react if he reached over the seats to grab or strike.

The "interview" is "when" the fight starts in my mind.

Growing up in a rougher neighbourhood, we learned early as children that the "interview" was when you got ready for the inevitable fight.

We rarely were spared by spousal intervention back then. If you assessed your obstacle as insurmountable, you would always try to de-fuse the situation, but you assumed the attack was coming - learned behavior, taught by the environment.

In retrospect, I think I had a privileged up-bringing - to have learned these things early. They need to be practiced.

A personal anecdote, but very typical.

In hindsight, I was lucky that I wasn't attacked from behind during the movie. I had not assessed the guy as a serious risk initially - could have been a bad error. I am more careful now.

Hutch
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:19 am

True, the how is the most important although visualizing the where helps the tactical think tank.

Good example is the incident reported by Hutch.

What do you do? This has happened to almost all of us. Unruly people sitting in front or behind you and your wife in a theatre talking loud.

So you say why don’t you get up and move elsewhere? It is the smart thing to do even if it hurts to have to slither away to a less than good seat without giving the offending party a piece of your mind.

But what if your seats are theatre-reserved seats and you cannot move elsewhere? Do you get up and get the usher to respond and admonish the people to be quiet?

They will see you get up to get the usher and when he leaves they will do it again, maybe louder, just to bust your balls because they’ll think you are a wimp. Now what?

So what’s the thing to do_ you say nothing and put up with the ##### the rest of the show, hating yourself for not standing up for your rights, and for maybe appearing to be a weakling in front of your girl/wife?

Enjoying the show?

Hutch, a question: after you politely asked the drunk to be quiet, did you feel comfortable knowing he was behind you, steaming inside feeling “dissed” in front of his wife? Did you stop thinking about him or were you subconscious preoccupied with thoughts of “him” taking away from your movie enjoyment?


"You got something to say to me now buddy?" "Do you want go outside and discuss it now?”


Did you ask yourself what signals you may have sent with your polite demeanor that may have triggered this behavior from him instead of a look and walk away?

Did you mentally trade places with him, thinking of ways he might be thinking of attacking you from behind?

Would he choke you? Punch you in the back of the head? Reach around and stick fingers in your eyes? Take out one of his socks and try to garrote you from behind?

Someone “dissed” with time on his hands can fantasize some horrendous pay back.

But then again, he might be just a nice guy who will shut up and get lost. But how will you know?

Tony Blauer talked about practicing attack scenarios like in a car _ being attacked from someone in the rear seat:

Oh my God..Where are all my tools? No tools to use now!



The "interview" is "when" the fight starts in my mind.



Generally true. In this case we might say the fight started when you told the guy to be quiet.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:23 am

jorvik »

I don't really think that you can just discuss the "ways" in isolation. You have to understand the nature of violence, how and why it is used, and by whom.

To a point, you have to generalise, and then having established certain general principles, move on to develop coherant stratagies and principles of behaviour.....

Bruce Lee said that there was no such thing as a surprise attack, and there isn't...the scenario in the car was a poor one, you should lock your doors so that nobody can get in...and if your stupid enough to have a threatening individual in your car to attack you , then you deserve what you get..

no amount of well intentioned seminars can save a fool....the same applies for attacks from behind,strangles weapons attacks etc...you won't survive them if there is serious intention behind them.

What linked all those scenarios that have been mentioned ? what was the general principle underpinning them all?
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:26 am

jorvick>>

as to how you will be attacked, as a general rule people from these areas "Know" fighting and they tend to do the most effective stuff,
so it'll be boxing,thai boxing, weight training....and usually weight training..if your big and strong you don't get picked on.

that's one big general rule.....other things, people from poor areas tend to drink more, do drugs more..which adds to the problem..they become more volatile.

There are many other issues which just become too intangible to discuss...how do you spot a racist, a child molestor, a rapist? you can't without profiling , and
that is not possible in most circumstances.

Now consider, most martial artists are nice people, you can spend a fortune on dojo fees
so they tend to be fairly well off.

One point I would make, and one which people ignore at their peril..do not study anything designed for the military or the police...their psychological parameters, and what they are conditioned to do are totally different from what an individual seeking self defence needs....usually, such courses are profit orientated.

Another thing to consider the Israelis aren't doing very well against hassbulla, and that's all down to underprivileged angry people .....with a mean psychology.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:29 am

Hutch>>

The discussion of flinching intrigues me. Many years ago, when my only martial arts training was a couple of years of judo, I was dating a girl whose former boyfriend took exception.

He stalked me for a while and then one night, with about five seconds warning (I could see him coming), he jumped me.

While I can't recount exactly how I did it, I did take him down and had him in a controlled position very quickly. I think it was a "flinch" reflex, but with the benefit of judo training...stance, balance, etc...

Can we train our flinches? Perhaps, if we don't burden ourselves with a lot of preconceived notions about executing particular moves in response to particular attacks? Using the empty mind?

Hutch
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:33 am

the scenario in the car was a poor one, you should lock your doors so that nobody can get in...And if your stupid enough to have a threatening individual in your car to attack you, then you deserve what you get..



Tony Blauer stated that we never explore the inside the car fight scenario because of apathy and denial that it will ever happen.

But what if it did? Could we access our traditional tools in that environment?

Could you get attacked in a public restroom, say in a mall where you have to walk a long corridor away from the main shopping areas, or at a rest stop on the highway? Many people have.

What if you get attacked while you are sitting on the toilet with your pants/pantyhose down to your ankles? How will you be attacked?

Tony recommends stepping out of your pants with one leg so as to retain some fighting mobility.


Tony believes that an attack will always follow a small number of like patterns.

Was I the instigator? Possibly, but in a good cause


I don’t think intentionally, but a judge or jury or a prosecutor would put you /any of us, for that matter, on the spot for not having thought of a different, non-confrontational solution. Difficult having to eat sh** at times, isn’t it? So we “stand up” for ourselves and set in motion unforeseeable consequences. It happens all the time.

Can we train our flinches?


Tony Blauer’s S.P.E.A.R. system is designed to redirect the flinch response into a counteroffensive weapon, and it seems to work very well.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby paulg » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:29 am

At the Hut in Newton we are designing a short exercise that starts with developing the flinch response into a nearly universal defensive/offensive move. GEM has been teaching this for years. At the Hut, I took a survey of the 'go-to' moves that people have actually used in self-defense. In other words, not hypothetical moves/defenses but actual ones, used and relied upon In Real Life (so we have been calling the exercise IRL: In Real Life). Out of recognition for the Hayes Rule the more options you have, the longer it takes to react, so the exercise has only five or six moves. All gross motor, no subtleties, lots of leeway to adapt and be flexible. This is still a work-in-progress, but people seem to like it so far.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:23 pm

Hi Paul,

Excellent...and it fits in with the theme of my forum.

Can you post the specifics of the drill? I would like to try it.

I have always agreed with the expertise of the combative trainers who keep telling us that when under extreme stress, the body will default to natural response actions congruent with the human animal.

So many of the different types of techniques we learn in various seminars, though important to our overall development, will not naturally emerge under an adrenalized survival state.

What will emerge is what the body decides to do as programmed by nature.

Good job Paul.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:04 pm

Neighborhood Lines

By Michael Patrick Murphy

A must read book...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22854


https://neighborhoodlines.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Neighborhood-Lin ... B07DX4X53Z



Mike is a top power athlete and Uechi sandan at Johnny Tosches Bridgewater Dojo, where I teach as a cross trainer.

Mike is ...A Jimmy Farrell trained middleweight Boxer- with incredible power and speed delivery, and one of the nicest persons you will ever meet.

He is Peter Blackman's son in law having married Peter's beautiful daughter, Andria, an actress _who played Ted Kennedy's wife in the movie Chappaquidick.

Image

But it was just recently that I learned Michael is also a published writer, when he graciously gifted me with his book 'Neighborhood lines' a fantastic story of an unlikely friendship between two students at Cathedral High school in the heart of Boston during the 80's when the city was engulfed in racial tension and turmoil.

Buy the book, as once you start reading it, you won't be able to put it down.

Excellent piece of work.

https://www.amazon.com/Neighborhood-Lin ... B07DX4X53Z

Image
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby paulg » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:57 am

Okay, Van... I will post the IRL exercise as soon as I figure out how to post a short video, and when we have refined it a bit more.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:38 pm

Thank you Paul.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:25 am

What should be worrisome to the self styled so called “masters” [mini-masters] is that_ in remaining locked into pejoratives and politics, as well as in self styled supremacy, they will pay a heavy price in the evolutionary process.

They represent themselves as “self-defense” specialists to the general public and their students, and someday they will be called upon to account for themselves, legally and morally.

A legal deposition into what his qualifications to teach self-defense consist of and how his studies have kept up with foreseeability of street violence and its consequences is a nightmare I would not wish on any of them. Being legally deposed and scrutinized and your buttons pushed to lead you into foolish reactions...is an incubus.

You would think that an intelligent practitioner or “master” would know that he cannot afford to limit his training and research.

You’d think we would all realize that the more we understood evolving strategies, approaches, attitudes and methods, the greater their our worth and contributions to our style and future generations of practitioners.
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