Good talk on blocks

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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:37 am

Most civilized people don't get into fights these days, except for the few idiots here and there, and those civilized people usually don’t have fifty street fights under their belts.

The ones who do have a history of violence and lots of fights, possibly a criminal record, have very bad intent for any of us to deal with, and if you have done all you can to avoid fights, to include verbal defusing etc., and the fight still comes, chances are you are against one or more of these malevolent people.

Something else to be aware of, and it has been proven time and again, is that there are people out in the world who are just as tough and dangerous without any martial arts background as the best karate master might turn out to be, due to size, and inborn ferocity. Think about a 'Tank Abbot'

In order to prevail against such odds, one has to be schooled in the force continuum, and has to have embraced this concept’s mindset.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:40 am

Lee Darrow


When one faces someone trained in the MA, one assumes certain rules will be upheld.

In a street fight, as a certain large individual in the movie said, "Rules?! In a KNIFE FIGHT?!" there ARE no rules. Eyes CAN be gouged, throats speared, ears torn off and fingers bitten off.

I do not believe that in a fight with any of the Masters one would encounter such techniques. Which is what we are getting at here.

Let's face it, how many MA types carry matched icepicks and can use them well? And will, just for the heck of it?

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.HT.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:51 am

An icepick is difficult to even see much less block.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/nyre ... apons.html

The young man staggered down a city street as blood flowed from a puncture wound. The weapon used in the steely attack — an ice pick — was sticking out of his lower back.

The scene was reminiscent of an era in the 1930s and ’40s when members of a notorious Brooklyn murder syndicate left a trail of bodies riddled with ice-pick holes. This attack, however, was set in modern-day New York City, specifically, on Aug. 21, at 4:20 p.m. in the Norwood section of the Bronx.

While guns top the list of weapons used in violent assaults, every so often, a crime is committed with a weapon that is suggestive of a different era and seems mystifyingly out of place in the New York City of today.

One such weapon is the ice pick — often associated with the 1940 murder of the Russian Marxist revolutionary Leon Trotsky: He was killed with an ice pick’s cousin, an ice ax, while he was in exile in Mexico, by an assassin who, acting on the orders of Joseph Stalin, crept up behind Trotsky and slammed the ice ax into his skull.

“I think the ice pick went the way of the milkman,” he added.

Not so. Plenty of hardware stores around the city still sell ice picks.

At NHS Hardware on Bainbridge Avenue in the Bronx, a worker, Jose Santana, strode toward the back of the store and grabbed a $3.89 model, whose wrapper said that it was of “professional quality” and “high carbon steel,” from a display of ice picks hanging from a peg.

“There are some weird people looking for this,” Mr. Santana said with a hint of a smile. “It’s weird, no?”


A common household tool that doubled as a lethal weapon for the members of Murder Incorporated can still be found in stores. It is perfectly legal to buy one. Credit Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

The demand is greater than the store chooses to meet: because the store has a policy restricting the sale of ice picks to anyone under the age of 21, it has sold only two in the past six months or so.

“Some guy might buy this for torturing people,” another worker, Victor Reynoso said. “Sometimes they come to buy, but we don’t sell. If you are going to buy this, you have to show me ID.”

There was a time when the ice pick was an essential household tool. At the turn of the 20th century, Hudson River ice-harvesting was a vibrant industry and scores of icemen sold big blocks of ice, packed in sawdust and hay, from horse-drawn wagons.

Back then, ice picks were certainly used as makeshift weapons too, said Kathleen Hulser, an adjunct professor of public history and museum studies at the Eugene Lang College, New School.

“The icemen would deliver this large solid chunk of ice and you’d then use an ice pick to stab the thing and get some ice off,” Professor Hulser said.

“So every house had an ice pick,” he added, “and you know the way it is, somewhere in the city, tempers fray and the ice pick is close at hand when people are losing it.”

In the late 1920s and early 1930s, the ice-harvesting industry evaporated, replaced by “a mechanical household machine,” as the refrigerator was referred to in a 1927 article in The New York Times.

Just when it seemed the ice pick served no purpose, a Brooklyn organized-crime syndicate, known as Murder Incorporated, found a deliberately sinister use for the otherwise antiquated tool. Historians estimate that the gangster ring carried out 400 to 1,000 contract killings. In more than a few cases, the victim met with his death at the end of an ice pick.

Police officers examining the tool, a mountaineering ice ax, used to assassinate Leon Trotsky, the Russian Marxist, near Mexico City in 1940. Credit Associated Press

According to newspaper accounts, two young Brooklyn “underworld characters” were found dead in a vacant lot in New Jersey in 1932. Their bodies, each stabbed at least 20 times with an ice pick, were stuffed into sewn sacks. One victim had only one cent in his pocket.

In 1944, a jury found Jacob Drucker guilty of the murder of Walter Sage, a Brooklyn moneylender whose body was found “riddled with ice-pick holes” and strapped to a slot machine frame.

“Let me put it to you this way,” said a former New York City police detective. “An ice pick stabbed through the temple and through the brains was not uncommon in homicides.”
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:54 am

Back then, mobsters used ice picks not only because the tool was easy to get and did the job, with a needlelike shaft that, unlike a knife, could glide around bones and puncture organs, but also because an ice pick instilled fear. It was employed to send a message, said the detective, Thomas D. Nerney, 72, who joined the New York Police Department in 1966 and worked in virtually every homicide squad in the city before retiring in 2002.

“Murder is not only to take somebody’s life away, but to terrorize,” Mr. Nerney said. “The word goes out: ‘Hey, do you want to wind up in the Hudson River wearing a concrete overcoat? Do you want to wind up in a landfill somewhere, stabbed with an ice pick?’ That was the message that went out to the people who didn’t comply with the rules of the Mafia.”

In the decades after Murder Incorporated, the city’s Sicilian crime families, like the Lucheses and Gambinos, took hold, gaining power and notoriety from the 1950s through the ’80s.

Richard Kuklinski — known as the “Iceman” because he froze his victims’ bodies to hamper the determination of the time of death — claimed he had killed more than 200 people as a hit man for Newark’s DeCavalcante crime family and New York City’s mob families.

He bragged about killing people with ice picks and chain saws, among other devices.

The ice pick never completely disappeared as an implement of crime, but it seems to have rebounded as one recently.


Richard Kuklinski, a convicted killer and self-described hit man, said he had used ice picks and chain saws as weapons. Credit Associated Press

Late last year, a Bronx man, John Martinez, was dubbed the Ice-Pick Bandit by prosecutors and the news media after being caught and convicted of a series of robberies and burglaries. On separate occasions, Mr. Martinez brandished an ice pick and terrorized six women, stealing cash, jewelry and cellphones. In one case, Mr. Martinez threatened to stab a woman’s child if she did not hand over more cash.

The recent attack in the Bronx unfolded when an unidentified man, apparently lying in wait inside a parked car, ambushed two young men, ages 19 and 20, on the corner of East 209th Street and Perry Avenue. A witness described seeing one victim with the ice pick jutting out of his back.

The attacks were not fatal, though one victim was seriously injured. A police spokesman said the motive remained unknown and no arrests had been made.

Under the city’s consumer-protection and public-safety laws, it is illegal to sell a box cutter to anyone under 21. Retailers who break the law face a maximum $500 fine for each violation.

When asked whether the law also applied to ice picks, Mr. Vallone said it did not — and then got to thinking: Why not? The question prompted him to draw up a bill that would amend the law to include a ban on the sale of ice picks to anyone under 21. He said his committee would probably hold a public hearing on the proposal in the next several months.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:56 am

“The ice pick, from what I know, is the new thing,” Mr. Rosa said, noting how easy it was to buy and conceal. “It’s definitely the new wave.”

Toward the end of the conversation, almost as if he had an afterthought, Mr. Rosa said he had been stabbed repeatedly with an ice pick about two years ago during a street fight. He rolled up the sleeve of his T-shirt to reveal two dime-size wounds, not unlike scars from a smallpox vaccination, on his shoulder and upper arm.

“I was stabbed once in the chest, once in the back and twice in the arm,” Mr. Rosa said; it took 12 stitches to close the wounds. Asked if the police ever caught the perpetrator, Mr. Rosa laughed and shook his head. “We got this thing called street justice. We don’t go to the cops over something like that.”
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:26 pm

There are many discussions and opinions on 'sudden attack' something that was not read or foreseen ahead of time...and we toy with the idea that we can 'weaponize' the flinch or other techniques...but when it comes right down to it...chances are that any action will beat your reaction every-time, even if you 'sort of' expect something coming.

Here is Darren Laur
The Anatomy Of Fear and How It Relates To Survival Skills Training

~~
An officer assigned to jail duty conducts a prisoner bed check when he observes that a male, who was lodged in the drunk tank, was laying face down not breathing in a corner of the cell.

The officer attempts to verbally arouse the prisoner, but these attempts fail. The officer now believing that the prisoner is dead, proceeds into the cell, bends over and grabs the prisoner by his left shoulder in an attempt to roll him over.

At this point in time the prisoner, spontaneously and by complete surprise, quickly rolls towards the officer, and with his right hand, swings towards the officer’s face.

The officer “instinctively” pulls both of his arms in to protect his head, and moves backwards.

The suspect has now moved to his feet, and again lashes out towards the officer with what the officer “perceives” to be a big right hooking punch, at which time the officer again puts his hand up to cover his head, crouches and again moves backwards away from the threat.

The officer only now realizes that he is bleeding profusely, but doesn’t know why.

The prisoner now lunges at the officer a third time, with a straight liner punch, at which time the officer sees the shinning glimmer of a metal object in the prisoners right hand.

As this third attack makes contact with the officer, he instinctually attempts to push the prisoners hands away from his body, but contact is made resulting in a puncture wound to the officer’s chest area.

The officer now realizing that he is in an edged weapon encounter, and cut several times, disengages from the cell area to call for help.

The above noted scenario happened to a police officer in my department in 1992. Although this officer had received training in edged weapon defense, and was one of the more officer safety conscious members of the department, he could not make his training work.

Based upon the officers reaction to this spontaneous attack, I began to wonder if the “instinctual” physical reactions to this attack, which were totally different from the training he received up to that point in time, would be experienced by other officers as well, if placed into a spontaneous attack situation in which they had no idea that an attack was going to occur.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:29 pm

Darren Laur
I’m a big believer in, “don’t tell me, show me” so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them, they would be attacked with a knife.

The attacker, who was dressed in a combatives suit, was told that during mid contact, they were to pull a knife (that they had concealed), flash it directly at the officer, yell “I’m going to kill you pig,” and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:

· 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact

· 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario

· 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:32 pm

Darren Laur
When I reviewed the many many hours of videotape of the above noted scenarios, I also made two very important and interesting observations in how the majority of officers reacted to the spontaneous attacks:

· most flinched, bringing both hands up to protect their head while crouching at the same time, and attempted to disengage from the attacker by backing away from the threat.

This usually resulted in the attacker closing the gap quite quickly with their victim

· Those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to effectively block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately grappled with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Darren Laur
After making these observations, I asked myself why I was seeing these reactions. During this 1992 research project, I had the opportunity to read an article authored by Bruce Siddle and Dr. Hal Breedlove entitled, “ Survival Stress Reaction.” In this article Siddle and Breedlove stated:

“…research by numerous studies provide two clear messages why people will place themselves in bad tactical situations.

The common phenomena of backing away under survival stress results from the visual systems deterioration of the peripheral field to attain more information regarding threat stimulus.

Since the brain is demanding more information to deal with the threat, he officer will invariably retreat from the threat to widen the peripheral field.

Secondly, the brains normal ability to process (analyze and evaluate) a wide range of information quickly is focused to specific items.

Therefore, additional cues, which would normally be processed, are lost. This explains why people can not remember seeing or identifying specific facts which were relatively close to the threat.”
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:35 pm

Darren
The research by Siddle and Breedlove not only confirmed my findings, but also answered why our officers were acting this way.

It also explains why one officer, who had actually caught the attackers knife hand with both of his hands and was looking directly at the knife, stated “I didn’t see any knife.” It was not until I showed the video replay that he believed there was a knife.

In 1995, Bruce Siddle released his first book entitled, “Sharpening The Warrior’s Edge The Psychology and Science Of Training.” In my opinion, Siddles’s published works began to answer a lot of the questions that I asked during my experience with, and empirical research into combatives
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:37 pm

The first real studies in the area of Survival Stress Reaction (SSR) as it related to combat performance, were conducted in the 1930’s. This study noted that soldiers, who were sending Morse code (fine/complex motor skill) during combat situations, had much more difficulty in doing so when compared to non-combat environments.

The next real research in SSR came during the Vietnam War as it related to the location of buttons and switches in fighter cockpits. As a result of this research, cockpits were reconfigured to take SSR into affect, as it specifically related to eye/hand co-ordination during combat situations.

Although much of the early research surrounding SSR was conducted by the military during times of war, recently (from about the mid-1960’s to present time) a lot of research has been conducted in SSR as it relates to athletic performance
.Darren
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 pm

What this means to me is that in an unexpected spontaneous attack, if you are training motor skills that are not congruent with what the amygdala will cause the body to do, more specifically the “Somatic Reflex Potentiation” no matter how well trained the response, it will be overridden.

But many in the combatives field believe that we can make a trained response the dominant response through repetition and training using stimulus/response training methods.
Darren

That's why your blocks won't work as you think they are trained to.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Darren
As I stated earlier in this article, there is quite a large body of “psychological” research into stress and fear. One of the leaders in this field is Dr. Seymour Epstein who in 1994 did a comprehensive review of this topic area. Dr. Epstein had come to the conclusion, from a psychological perspective, that a person has “two” distinctly different modes of processing information during a spontaneous high threat situation:

1. Rational Thinking: (low emotional arousal states) able to calmly engage in the conscious, deliberative, analytical cognitive processing

2. Experiential Thinking: ( high stress and emotional arousal) an automatic, intuitive mode of information processing that operates by different rules from that of the rational mode, far more efficient during times of high stress than conscious deliberate thinking

Dr. Epstein, based upon his research, points out “In most situations that automatic processing of the experiential system is DOMINATE over the rational system because it is less effortful and more efficient, and, accordingly is the DEFAULT option.” This is especially true in sudden, high stress, situations requiring instant physical performance
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:05 pm

A second pathway is known as the “low road” which is triggered by a spontaneous/ unexpected attack.

Here, the brain will take control of the body with an immediate “protective reflex” (downloaded directly to the brain stem where all of our reflexive responses to danger are stored), which will override any system of combat that bases its ability on “cognitively” applying a physical response.

This is especially true if the trained response is not congruent with the “protective reflex” (this is exactly what I observed in the 1992 video study that I conducted and mentioned earlier in this article)
Darren


So this is the reason why some of the stuff you train with and think is now 'ingrained' will work in play, like in a dojo, but will leave you unprotected in a real fight.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:06 pm

look at what you are doing in the area of self protection and ask yourself, is my training “congruent” with the above noted information, if not change what you are doing
Darren
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