Good talk on blocks

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

Moderator: Van Canna

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:00 pm

A boxer view

I have had the same experience in discussing this with some professional boxers I have known.

They would raise an eyebrow at our “conditioning” speculating that one of their power punches to our “conditioned body” would fold us in two, not counting a quick knockout with a light tap to our glass chins.

They also thought that our blocks were a joke against power punches thrown in fast combinations.

Even if successful in intercepting, they felt a few hard shots into our arms would take care of our “blocks”
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:06 pm

Panther »

Given that in a wild swinging fight, the hand, even if conditioned, is in danger of breaking, such as the typical “boxer’s fractures” and given that the hand can get “impaled” on the adversary’s teeth with complications of blood poisoning, aids, hepatitis and so on, why would we want to punch anyway.

IMNSHO, during the chemical dump, it is natural for people to make fists. Over time, for many reasons, that has been incorporated into the arts.

Having done Sanchin in both the Uechi (the original chinese) manner with open hands and also in the Goju (modified by Chojun Miyagi) manner with closed fists, what I was told was that Miyagi made the change for the young students he had who were used to throwing punches.

He only taught the open handed version after a certain point and it was basically dropped from the system by most sensei. The truth is that most Goju sensei hadn't ever even seen it.

I was fortunate enough to learn it both ways from early on. (A difference in the versions of Sanchin between the styles regardless of the strikes is the way certain turns are executed. I can see pros and cons in both...)

Regarding boxers... Their are some tough hombres who're boxers and some who wouldn't last a second, just as there are in any martial art style. That's just the way it is.

Some people can punch like no tomorrow and no matter how well you're conditioned, when you take a barrage of punches about the upper body and arms, those punches will take their toll.

But let's put this in the original concept and discussion of self-defense. I don't care what martial art one trains (karate, jujitsu, boxing, pick your poison), the fact is that if you get into an altercation outside of your dojo or gym or the ring or the mat, you are a complete idiot if you think the odds are that you will stand there and go "toe-to-toe" and "duke it out" with someone.

That street punk is going to kick and knee and slam and do whatever to accomplish his goal... and you have to as well.

I have lots of respect for boxers. I wouldn't stand there and let one of them beat on me! They'd kill me fercryinoutloud! But, if they think they're going to stand there and just get to beat on their opponent's arms, then they're in for a rude destruction from other weapons.

The thing I learned from working out with boxers (beside the fact that they can punch like hell) is the fact that they're conditioned to think "below the waist" is off limits.

That makes many of them easy targets for shots to the legs and for sweeps/takedown moves. Sometimes it's good to only limit your arsenal to punches...


Panther
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 pm

This puts it into perspective for the ones who are able to appreciate it

Usually when one takes training or instruction what they are receiving is an instructor’s vision of a confrontation and the means to prevent or manage such.

A lot can be gleaned about someone’s reference points to the realities of self-defense, by examining the methods they espouse.

This is important from the standpoint of insuring that you are indeed training in a system that matches the realities of the way life or death struggle flows.


** And

Scott Sonnon:

Unconditional survival demands extensive skill and preparation ranging from non-verbal communication to lethal force.


And your ugly experiences, Panther, are a testament to the above.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:11 pm

From Scott Sonnon's article in Black Belt magazine July '02

* Symmetrical training cannot be relied upon. Too many martial arts instructors teach you how to use your skills only against practitioners of the same style.

* You must be prepared, both psychologically and physiologically, for the attack. Your awareness must be such that you have the ability to function under the intense strain of personal combat even though it will enable you to defuse or avoid 90 percent of all volatile situations.

* If you understand only fighting skill, then when conflict arises you will fight, even if the situation could have been solved by other means.

* If you fail to recognize the attack developing and are startled by it, you will not have access to your skills. If you allow your awareness to lapse and fade, you will become a victim of your own overconfidence.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:14 pm

From the knife forum:

Jhivaro man

The bad guy is not going to be at range and brandish a weapon, giving you time and the cue to equally arm yourself. If he chooses to go after you, then it’s probably because your awareness has lapsed. Even so, he’s not going to close on you unarmed, and if he does then it’s usually because he has a buddy who more than likely is.

So the idea that confrontations begin with both participants equally and proportionally armed is a myth. You will either see the threat and make preparations for a potentially armed encounter, or you will be in one before you know that it’s an armed encounter and have to deal with it hands on or access a tool in fight


~~

Dale Seago

My own teacher in Japan, Masaaki Hatsumi, has commented, "Animals fight with claws and teeth. The nature of human beings is to fight with weapons. I am trying to teach you to fight as a human being".

In my art firearms are considered just another weapon among many that we may use.

Hatsumi sensei has also pointed out (and demonstrated many times over the years I've trained with him) that any true martial art does not need to fundamentally change just because technology changes:

It simply incorporates the new technology into the overall knowledge base in a way which is compatible with the art's principles, so that the most effective use can be made of it.


Amen
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:20 pm

Mark Brelsford »

Diego,

What is the exact objective in Sanchin Kitae?

I have learned it the place where strength and power is grown. One movement and layer at a time. A slow and steady process.

When we are performing a thrust/block/step we are not tense, but if we are not tense the thrust/block/step will never end in case it will be intercepted for "the surprise effect, of a sudden hit" that land on our body.

Another very misunderstood area, sanchin testing.

If you ever watch such people as Masters Kanei and Nakahodo, there is never any surprise hits. A light touch to the area to be tested is applied first, then the strike.

If a student is standing there and getting knocked around with no rhythm or reason, that is not the dojo to be at. In sanchin testing your a sitting target.

If a teacher is doing this he/she should relearn exactly what they are trying to accomplish. Testing should be done to foster growth and learning, not as a slug fest.

However, there is nothing wrong with a good hard test, if done right. And the person is at a point of doing it and is prepared for it (skill level).

This has been even a topic of many a senior meeting in Okinawa. There are some Okinawans that have also questionable methods of testing and have been talked to by the "powers to be".

There is a big difference between testing and abuse. Remember in sanchin you are trying to develop muscle memory if you will, the ability to contract/control muscle groups, not a shock reaction.

Even as I use to perform nightly shows (sanchin demos) in Naha, demos for tourists, you knew you were tested from Nakahodo sensei, but never hurt.

Mark
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:07 pm

Formal bunkai is only used as a set standard for basic interpretation of the kata (seisan, for example) it is not the only interpretation though.

As a person advances, they should learn there own meaning of the kata (there own bunkai, if you will).

There is technique in the kata, that should never be changed, yet the application of each move has many different applications and interpretation.

I wonder why is that for Sanseryu it is difficult to see the bunkai? I read in a couple of places that Kanbun Sensei, do not want that Sanseryu Bunkai became formalized. Is it correct that this particular bunkai depends in an interpretation of the student more than in learning a standard set of attacks and defenses?

Again, as you might be aware, Shohei Ryu, does a bunkai for this kata. It is not new and Kanei ok'ed the development prior to his death.

It is used in testing, again as a basic interpretation. Like all kata, the understanding of that kata should be learned through bunkai. It is a learning process, and should be encouraged.

What works for one might not for another, both in technique and person. A person can only fully understand the kata (waza, technique) of the style from "playing" with different application and trying to find what is effective and what is not.

Again this is based on skill level, interpretation of the move and imagination.

The more understanding and depth learned in the kata will only enhances all the other areas of the style. From proper basics and conditioning can safe and effective study be accomplished.

Hope that helps.


Mark
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:12 am

Joe Graziano »


Many rush and blur if you will and try to beat each other to the next move instead of really trying to perform with follow through and powerful movements. To much is pulled, this then creates poor habits that then show up in other areas such as fighting.

So true. In kumite and drills, certainly working cooperatively to some degree is necessary to limit injuries. But you're doing your partner a disservice by not trying to hit him.
By the same token, if you're in a rush to beat each other to the next move by just an ineffective "tag", that's not productive either.

Penetrate deeply, no, but do try to make light contact. You accomplish this mostly with distancing adjustment, not by holding back.

The goals of speed, power, and (eventually) beauty are to be developed in our kata practice. Each movement with speed and power is definitely distinct from a kata "race" which is how the speed element is sometimes misunderstood and misapplied in practice.

Thus I strongly agree that the "holding back" (or a rushed, ineffective "tag") in kumite and the "rushing" in kata for example, create "poor habits that then show up in other areas such as fighting."

Joe Graziano
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:16 am

The “deep penetration” was something we had to contend with and learn rather quickly when going to the body, in the old tournaments that we fought.

Walter and Rabesa and Campbell and so many others, were masters at this concept. It was something we had to do to “short stop” and “discourage” opponents from taking your head off at will.

A good example of this was when we were put to the test in the Mattson Academy by Moto and Taro, Japan’s collegiate champions with a samurai spirit.

As to the rushing in the kata “ as fast as you can”
I have never believed in it, as I think it promotes/programs ineffectual flailing.

Walter, also, does not do kata this way. The speed and power should be in each sequence, and in between “body shift” as you know.

One thing: maybe both you and Mark could address the “timing” concept in the kata. Many students are confused over what it means.

I do have the Toyama sensei’s explanation, but have an interest in others’ thinking as well.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:19 am

One thing: maybe both you and Mark could address the “timing” concept in the kata. Many students are confused over what it means.

When really trying to learn this concept, first off it should mostly be done in individual kata. Group kata is fine for overall, kata memorization, but is not a great learning tool for personal progress.

The timing od the kata depends on what kata you are practicing. each of our kata has a different tempo.

Basically, you should not blur the movements, as taught by Kanei and Nakahodo sensei's the hand movements should be crisp and strong yet the overall pace is not rushed.

It should be methodical in keeping with the design of the kata. Each kata has a series of movement then a pause, the placement of the pause is again dependent of the person and the kata.

It should be brought out for that person by an instructor that understands were the person and the kata needs to pause.

Timing is a process of shifting the body, both in step and direction, that best uses and applies the purpose of the various hand/leg movements both in attack and defence for maximum effectiveness.

Mark
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:22 am

Bone »

Van

I think that if you look at the FMA philosphy then you would be right by saying YES I do not want to "Block" the knife but rather use an "attack" to defend-
to me this makes more sense in every range of fighting.

In kicking range I attack a kickers legs to stop kicks, in punching range I can attack by attacking the arms ect ect basically defanging the snake.

"Thinking is a lost art"
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:27 am

Bone »

Boxers and wrestlers and Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's advantage over some others with all things being equall size, strength is there training method-not so much what they do but how they do it.

Boxers only have jab, cross, hook, overhand, upercut for "weapons" but that is al that they use so they in essence become very profecient with a more limited knowledge.

Also boxers train the same way for "tournaments" as they do for the street with teh same weapons at full speed. This is what gives them a huge edge! They are used to not only taking a hard shot, but to attacking instinctively to what you are doing with multiple combinations.

The same applys to the grappling categories. It's not to say that grappling always beats striking or one is better then the other. It is to say that in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu & Judo you train or roll all out and become able to adapt to all of the scenarios by feeling what your opponent is going to do.

When I have the mounted position, both legs straddled across your chest, I know that you have limited options as to where you can physically go, I also know how to stop you or keep you there.

So while I don't think that it is a matter of which one is better then the other it is a matter of who is traing more effeciently and effectively.

"Thinking is a lost art"
Bone
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:43 am

What it boils down to is that the average guy getting into boxing, professional or amateur, usually is endowed with better “natural equipment” and he goes in with the expectation of having to take hard shots to the head and in the ribs. Even non-professionals can hit with devastating power in the ring.

This brings a different mind set to the game as well.

I have had quite a few students with boxing background, and fought against people with golden gloves titles etc. in karate matches. They were just better than the average karate competitor I ever went up against.

And then there is always the need to be realistic about what any of us can be really capable of doing...limbs conditioning....body conditioning_ notwithstanding.

When it comes to headshots, some people can take it, some can’t. The ones that do are usually the ones who get into boxing.

In karate we don't condition the head/face/jaw...most of us have never really been hit square in the jaw or in the ribs like the boxers do.

The average karate-ka will go down with less than a “square-shot” simply because he is not prepared physically and mentally for shots to the head, as boxers are.

A simple truth- the “glass jaw” persuasion.

And It is a mistake to really believe that the 'Wauke' will take care of protecting the head while the 'conditioned' body will absorb 'body shots'...

And then remember ...it will all depend on the type of opponent who will be facing you.

Believing that because of your hands/legs...whatever ...conditioning...the opponent 'will feel you' is an oversold dream...
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:46 am

cxt »

Concerning the whole "knife and hand position" thing.

Just a thought. Period Japanese Jujutsu arts look the way they do, use the techniques they do etc.

Because they start from the idea that your opponent WILL BE ARMED--not "maybe" not "might" _ WILL be armed.

As such (of the small number I have seen) seem to focus on attacking PRIOR to the opponent "clearing" the weapon.

A pre-emptive (sp ) strike/attack if you will.

Not so much "ok he is coming at me with a knife" more of "looks like he might have or I think he is reaching for a knife--so I hit now" kinda thing.

Don't know how many people carry knives in 19th Cent Okinawa or China but given a island of fisherman (okinawa) it stands to reason that many people did.

Is it possible that one of the functions of the (kinda) close fighting range, "infighting" tactics, and general overall approach might have been alot more reflective of "pre-emptive" striking than todays version?

I was always told that karate was a type of "last ditch" method of personal protection. That it was designed for use ONLY when you couldn't run or get your weapon into play or use a "makeshift" weapon.

I think that no matter what art you study a guy with a weapon--any weapon is going to have a serious advantage.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:53 am

Good observation. It would make sense to preemptively strike when sensing the opponent’s going for a weapon.

Yet you will hear many Uechi senseis say that Uechi is a defensive style and we don’t attack or strike first.

But I think it is all in the mind of the beholder. There is so much crap you hear about the martial arts and what works, and Rory Miller has outlined this dangerous thinking, especially in martial arts practitioners who ever never had a real fight or even seen one.

I know that I survived an armed ambush by a bunch of punks with blunt weapons, and possibly a hidden knife [although I did not see one]. Some of the weapons were nasty, such as a two by four with nails nailed right through it. One hit by that weapon would drive those nails into the head.

I survived by attacking the closest one about to swing his weapon. Going berserk was more like it.

I think that no matter what art you study a guy with a weapon--any weapon is going to have a serious advantage.

My own teacher in Japan, Masaaki Hatsumi, has commented, "Animals fight with claws and teeth. The nature of human beings is to fight with weapons.

The bad guy is not going to be at range and brandish a weapon, giving you time and the cue to equally arm yourself.

He’s not going to close on you unarmed, and if he does then it’s usually because he has a buddy who more than likely is.[armed]

So the idea that confrontations begin with both participants equally and proportionally armed is a myth. You will either see the threat and make preparations for a potentially armed encounter, or you will be in one before you know that it’s an armed encounter and have to deal with it hands on or access a tool.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 52536
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

PreviousNext

Return to Van Canna's Self Defense Realities

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron