Good talk on blocks

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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Shane Kirk »

I may also suggest to this big S.O.B. that I am with him and agree the driver needs to be tuned up…maybe the driver was in the wrong and the attacker over reacted…anyway it may buy some more time and it may take the attention away from me, obviously vulnerable and back at the driver with a greater probability of survival and if he is thinking clearly would leave the scene A.S.A.P.

This would allow me to tell the S.O.B. I will hang around to give the police a statement on his behalf when they arrive any second…

Just another spin on things….

Shane.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby paulg » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:25 pm

If anyone comes down to the Hut, Saturdays from 10:00 to 11:30 and wants to see/learn the IRL we will do it. We switch back and forth and back and forth between the kata version and the bonkai version in order to 'marry' them as closely as possible. Please keep in mind that the six moves of the IRL are in the present order only for convenience of practice and are not meant to necessarily follow each other in real life (IRL).

1)the natural flinch, with both arms rising and the body moving either back (surprised mode) or forward (counterattacking mode).

2)two handed grab of the lapels or hair or jacket and pulling forward and down (like you see in hockey game fights.)

3) blast with multiple punches or hammer-fists, one hand or both, driving the attacker back.

4) using the raised knee/shin to block a kick and the counter-kicking to the groin or belly or chest.

5) drive the knee at the leg or groin or belly or ribs depending on position and target availability.

6)the classic 'take down' or tripping move where you step around and place your foot behind the foot of the attacker (like an exaggerated sanchin step), grab at the arm or shoulders or lapels and throw him down.

Keep in mind that these moves were chosen because members of the class had actually used them in a real self-defense situation with good effect. It is not an exhaustive list, and if you did such a survey at your own dojo you might come up with other basic, effective moves. Remember Hicks' Law (or the Hicks-Hyman Law) which states that the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of possible choices he or she has... increasing the number of choices will increase the decision time logarithmically.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:52 pm

Great approach Paul, thanks. I would recommend to anyone attending the classes at the HUT...great training.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:00 pm

Chris McKaskell »

Hey Shane, great response.

I personally get a great deal of value from hearing of other people's experiences and the feedback that often follows.

Shane, for instance, sounds like he would have approached my situation in a much more prepared sort of way.

Sadly, I had to learn from experience before I could adopt an approach like his.

I doubt I'm alone.

Likewise, I found MA after some terrible experiences.

Happily, training is no longer about trashing bozos for me - although that is always a part of it: where hockey is about "ballet... and murder..." -- MA is, to my mind, about violence and sublime harmony. BALANCE

I'm not approaching this thread from a place of fear or paranoia. Rather, I was hoping to share with people some experiences and get their reflections so as to better myself and possibly give valuable information to those who have yet to experience violence, yet train MA.

Anyway, I'll be away the next couple of days -- training with David, in Toronto, and working. I'll check in again on Wednesday to finish telling my story.

I can't tell you how valuable I think it would be if others weighed in before then.

Otherwise, we'll never know what else could have been done. :?:

Many thanks

Chris
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:11 pm

Great posts by Shane, lots of lessons in there. He analyzes the situation in extreme detail and tactical value. You are indeed a Maloney student. He is a master tactician.

Better preparation by Shane has been discussed and the lesson is clear. It involves lots of detailed thinking ahead of time, and get going on a 'bug out bag' always at the ready.

But what would you have done once this monster started stalking toward you? Would you be thinking fight or flight?


I think that for the ones not actually involved in the situation hands on, as you were_ only general solutions can be prognosticated.

Being there as a component heart beat of the unfolding event, one will take in more information and sense more ways out than from behind the keyboard where the emotional element is missing.

You basically have several responses that are apparent to the average individual:

1. Fight.

2. Flight

3. Freeze

4. Communication/diversion

~~

As to flight, it doesn’t look promising for you, glass on the road, tripping on your own boots etc.

Not sure if you would fit under a parked pick up or SUV at the curb and hide from his grasp.

Might be able to throw your boots through some windows and yell ‘fire’ _ that would draw attention to you real quick, as Shane is suggesting.

As to fighting…it looks like it would be the very last resort as you would be overwhelmed by the monster especially if his intent is a nefarious one towards you, something he has not yet established as Shane suggests.

I keep telling students over and over that over reliance on any defensive move is foolish because it all depends on the kind of opponent you will be facing...he might be much bigger and stronger and tougher with any technique you think should work just bouncing off of him but making him enraged and giving him more of an excuse to pound you into then pavement or kill you.

And if you do fight it should be geared to ‘hit and run’ _ making space for you to evade after initial engagement _ as once in the grip of the ‘cocktail’ you will not feel any pain even as you cut your bare feet [having kicked off your unlaced boots] over glass as you sprout wings.

The best solution from my keyboard seems to be what Shane recommended _ …doing something the SOB doesn’t expect such as taking his side against the driver, telling him you will be a witness in his favor when the police arrive and asking him to help you in taking down the plate number of the vehicle.

But since you were unique to the situation, you may have sensed your unique way to defuse and or prevail.

I think what many readers fear, is not being ‘right’ looking stupid or being second guessed as to the ‘right solution’ _

No such thing…the right solution is what would work under unique circumstances, and there could be many solutions to brainstorm.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:14 pm

Josann »

I can only wonder if the way that most of us study uechi in a pretty traditional way and because of this we may be shocked if confronted by someone who has a knife and holds it at our throat.

In many systems, most notable Japanese ju jitsu, jeet kun do, and others that escape my mind right now they train against some type of modern weapon - knife, gun, club, bottle etc - each night.

Granted, this is no guarantee, but I have to think that this makes it a little easier to react when facing the real thing.

I'm wondering how many Uechi schools out there teach uechi techniques for the reality that is life ... that is if attacked you more than likely will face a blade or a gun. I know Uechi can be adaptable to this.

How does anybody train uechi ryu vs. knives and weapons?
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:17 pm

Chris McKaskell »

How does anybody train uechi ryu vs. knives and weapons?



I recently watched Emerson's five disc DVD set on unconventional edged weapons and was taken by how similar his 'pyramid' defences are to the opening of Sanchin or the thrusting we do on class.

Also, the stance - slightly pidgeon toed and with wrists facing in -- all appear to lend themselves to knife fighting by naturally protecting the vulnerable arteries behind and the tendons which help you hold your weapon.

Don't wanna change the direction of the thread, but I think this is a subject worth looking at some more.

Thanks for bringing it up!

And Thanks Van - you lay out the options clearly and concisely.

Chris
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:26 pm

Defense against a knife attack is mostly BS according to many lethal force trainers...Rory Miller writes well on this subject.

http://www.isegoria.net/2009/03/why-i-d ... e-defense/

A blade is pulled you are now in a homicide situation, where things will go ‘primitive’ in a split second as ‘natural homicide forces’ come into play.

‘Techniques’ go out the window quick
Because at that point it is not the ‘me’ inside you that is thinking about how to survive the blade. It is the ‘animal’ inside of the ‘me’ that tells you to ‘move over’ _

That animal that sneers at your ‘fancy pants techniques’
And shouts at you with ‘I’m taking over now before you get us both killed’ _

Rory Miller (Meditations on Violence) teaches a seminar called, Why I Don't Pretend to Teach Knife Defense:

The class starts with some pictures I’ve collected of knife wounds, emphasizing that one set was from a prison shank, just a piece of metal that had been scraped on a floor, not some custom fighting knife sharpened to a razor edge. The most gruesome was a single cut from a kitchen knife. Gives them a very basic idea of what the hell they are talking about. What the stakes are if they choose to gamble in this arena.

Then I ask for someone with no experience or training with a knife. I take the volunteer aside, hand her the training knife and whisper, “Keep the knife moving, get it in to them any way you can. Cut anything they stick out, if someone grabs your hand switch hands and keep stabbing and slashing. Got it?”

I then turn back to the students and say, “This person now has less than thirty seconds of knife training. Who in here teaches knife defense?”

At this point, with the put up or shut up time, there are no volunteers. I pick somebody.

The first time I did this drill (for those who don’t recognize it, it is Tony Blauer’s Manson Drill) the volunteer was a sixteen-year old female green belt in Uech-ryu karate with no knife training.

The expert (and, honestly, the Uechi guys didn’t need to be picked, they did volunteer — they have consistently been both braver and humbler than most martial artists, in my experience) ...was a sixth-dan and 20 year veteran police officer. He only got hit twelve times. (We count the stabs and usually end it at twenty, which is just a few seconds.)
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:31 pm

In a big diverse group, it quickly becomes clear that almost nothing works against a fast moving, aggressive knife.

The guys who have spent years with knives get slaughtered just as fast as people who have never tried it before — faster, if they really believe it works — they practically jump on the blade.
Rory

You can see why sometimes it is your own training that kills you...I have posted many examples of this...confidence BS notwithstanding...and because they choose to engage 'ill equipped and trained' in deadly force encounters where block and counter is many times useless.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:37 pm

Chris McKaskell »

Now for the exciting conclusion of my story!

Heading into the situation to assist someone I was already pretty alert and focused, but the moment I perceived the threat of personal danger the old synapses started firing a little quicker.

Situation analysis went something like this:

1) Running wasn’t going to work because the boots were going to trip me up and I was concerned about cutting my feet if I went barefoot – not that I minded the cuts, but if my escape didn’t work I’d be left having to fight barefoot, out of breath and cut – this made my immediate position a lot more appealing.

2) Involving a neighbor probably wouldn’t work because I was certain they were all watching from behind their curtains anyway – smashing a window to wake ‘em up would only add insult to injury. Besides, what could they do other than call EMS which we had already done. And I’m not crazy about involving innocents in my fights anyway – seems unfair and hard to justify in my mind. (I suppose I could have broken something just to act crazy and possibly freak out the EBG – or force a neighbor to get involved – but then what if they saw me as the aggressor? Too weird for me in that situation)

3) No big vehicles to hide under.

4) There were some garbage cans I could use as weapons, but as I began moving in that direction his pace toward me sped up – he seemed to be thinking the same thing – so, if I lost the race to the improvised weapon would he end up using it against me instead? Best to stay away from there – stay out in the open so I could move.

5) The fight seemed inevitable so I determined to maintain distance, de-fang wherever possible and avoid him as much as possible while waiting for help to arrive.

Okay, so now I had a workable plan – try to stay out of his way and not get hurt while waiting for help to arrive. I still had a moment to think and suddenly it dawned on me that I could try to communicate with him – try to win him over.

I spoke, but got no response – don’t think he heard me.

I had enough time to try it again – everything seemed to be moving pretty slow and it wouldn’t hurt to try again.

This time acting classes kicked in: I really looked at him deeply - the way they teach you in public speaking or acting. I kind of reached out to him – not physically, but emotionally. I don’t know how one might define stage presence, but that’s what I was going for: a big welcoming presence.

I think the practice of meditation helped too because I was able to allow myself to find that solid, deep, familiar calm place to work from.

Anyway, I summoned up my complete store of empathy and looked at him with all the love and compassion I could muster (which was tough because I was really feeling hate and dread) and I said in a loud clear voice:

“I was so worried about you! When I looked out my window I thought you were hurt. I am so glad you’re okay!”

It took the wind right out of his sails: he stopped and stood for a moment looking confused.

Here was my opportunity. I began to weave my thread a little more by stepping toward him while telling him how much I cared about him. I was trying to get into a better position and take ground instead if giving it, but as I moved forward something weird happened – he kind of crumpled – emotionally, not physically.

I don’t know why, but my gut said that reaching out and touching his shoulder was the right thing to do. I listened and as soon as my hand reached him he began to cry.

When the police arrived a few minutes later he and I were sitting on the curb together – he was crying and telling me his story of woe while I patted him on the back.

The police took him into custody without so much as a flinch – they had been looking for him: evidently he was armed and wanted because he earlier had broken into a house, assaulted the home-owner then assaulted another person on the street.

Apparently he had been running from the area the police were searching when he was nearly hit by my friend the car driver – who was happy to come out as soon as the cavalry arrived!

Lucky I wasn’t assault number three? You bet!

Thanks to those who posted here.

While things turned out for the best in the sense that no one got hurt and the bad guy got arrested – most people I ask maintain they would have fought rather than talk to the guy.

When I mention that the police said he was armed they slow down a little.

I never saw his weapon – I heard the police discussing it. I take that to suggest credence for the notion that it is best to deal with the person not the attack – thwart the attack and you’ve thwarted an attack (big deal cause here comes another one). Deal with the person and you’re dealing with the source of the attack.

And while no two situations are the same, it was a real thrill to get feedback from people here that included communication as an option to violence.

Chris
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:48 pm

To remember is ...when the blade is pulled in mind and body chaos, thinking compassion may be impossible as you are milli-seconds from a terrifying death.

Also to keep in mind are the dynamics of a brutal knife attack, a knifing, not a knife fight_ and the nature of the enemy at that moment.

People who pull a blade on you are
schizophrenics _ psychotics _ with their homicidal aggression triggering during active phases of psychosis in settings of acute excitement brought about by the confrontation. There is a certain ferocity in a knife attack hard to fathom and there will be great auditory exclusion as well.

Of course you work your skills, but careful of what skills you program.

I particularly care not to program the 'ready Kamae' stance with palms out and forearm down and to the front...when the distance closes with an opponent as the blade may just come out.

You do that and you made the knifer's 'slicing' day. You won't last long after a couple of slices inside your forearms.


You don't try to really defend when you sense or see a blade.

If not able to get away...You attack the man with a ruthless philosophy or you perish...this is the general view of lethal force trainers...but then again, what makes one think he has the power moves/strikes...needed to stop a fully adrenalized crazed opponent who might be twice his size? You will hear some karate people say "well you gotta know where to hit them" ...and so the dream goes.


Cat quick ‘skills’ empty handed or with weapons, count for nothing if the ‘martial artist’ is unable to reach down, when necessary, and come up with a ruthless ferocity, animalistic will to live _ indifferent to the opponent’s welfare.
Some punk is suddenly ‘blading’ you to death, you will soon be dead.

At times compassion and forbearance is an invitation to a kill.

Avoid and defuse anyway you can, when you can_ but be sure you ‘dial the beast’ within to survive.

And as to what you did…most excellent.

What would you have done and with what had he just sneered at you and kept coming pulling a weapon?

Many people taking lessons in ‘knife fighting’ are wasting their time if they don’t have the ruthless mind set necessary in its deployment.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:51 pm

Chris McKaskell »

Hi Van,

thanks for your comments.

I was thinking last night and realized I was probably a little unclear in the way I re-counted my story - the idea of defusing/comunicating was somewhat new to me at the time and I would not have considered it had I not felt myself at such a disadvantage. It was a big revelation at the time.

Today I'll always try talking first - if I can't avoid the issue by getting outta there.

Unlike my earlier story I didn't freeze and suddenly find myself with a knife at my throat -- this time I had the ability to move and defend myself and by that point I'd trained myself out of freezing.

Later, when asking others what they would do the response was typically the same as mine would have been -- attack brutally.

But the beast can go overboard too. That's where the balance thing becomes important IMHO. When does self defence become murder?? Where's the off switch??

Then again, let's be honest here:

What would you have done and with what had he just sneered at you and kept coming pulling a weapon?

:evil: :evil: I would have fought tooth and nail to the death pulling his entrails out with my bare hands and choking him with them if that's what it took to make it safely away from this f**k head and his deadly issues and back to my family. :evil: :evil:

Rest assured I'm in touch with my inner beast.

For me part of training has always been about mastering the beast within.

Anybody else share that notion???
Chris
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Chris McKaskell »

dealing with a deadly encounter -- the stuff I was taught:

1) disrupt airway/blood flow to the brain. (empty hands - probably by striking or squeezing)

2) disrupt/destroy vision. (shielding/scratching/jabbing)

3) disrupt balance. (rupture ear drums/upset stance)

4) mechanically damage structure. (especially knees/feet/qua then arm joints/hands etc. etc.)

Strike whatever presents itself. Stike fast. Strike hard. Strike often. Controls are opportunistic: use them only if the opportunity presents itself and only if you are sure it will work. Don't stop till it's safe to do so.

Does this sound accurate? Anything you would add?

I don't think the addition of a weapon changes this list - or does it?

Chris
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:59 pm

Rory Miller
Then they talk about how knives are actually used:

I demonstrate some prison shanking techniques and some mexican gang assassination techniques and the one Japanese tanto kata I know and they all have a lot in common — very close, from surprise, and using the other hand to freeze the target before the knife come into view.

Are those the attacks you train against? If not, too bad, because those are the attacks that happen. This brings up one of the big rules: Knives aren’t used for winning fights. Knives are used for killing people.
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Re: Good talk on blocks

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:02 pm


Then comes the Reception Line drill:


One student is picked out and I joyfully announce that he or she has been elected governor. It is now time for the inaugural ball. You first duty is to shake hands with all the people lining up to congratulate you- contributors, friends, political allies and rivals.

You have to be nice, friendly. By the way, your security detail has information someone plans to kill you. Have a nice party.

The governor then faces away and one of the other students gets the knife. All the students are given instructions. Be happy, be friendly, shake hands, hug, then mill around behind the governor.

The assassin can attack at any time — while shaking hands, later, after everyone else is done, while the governor is getting a hug…

The students cycle through the governor role. At least once, time permitting, there is no assassination attempt and the whole class gets to take a good hard look at how stilted and weird the body language of someone who is afraid can be… good education.

In the end, the critique is always the same:


No one yelled for help. No one ran. No one yelled, “He’s got a knife!” No one used the mirrors all around or the weapons lying everywhere (we usually do this at a MA seminar, remember). In the end, people were trying to come up with martial arts solutions to survival problems. As much as we want to pretend otherwise, that is rarely a good fit.

Rory’s friend Mac made an insightful comment:

In 40 years of training with weapons, I have never seen anyone actually attack the knife wielder and not defend first, except for you. Only the attitude of, “today is a good day to die”, or running away at top speed, has any hope of defeating a knife attack.


Posted in Martial Arts, Rory Miller |
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