Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can't.

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Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can't.

Postby Rick Wilson » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:29 pm

Does your Style/System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can’t.

There is a misconception out there that a style/system/instructor can cover every aspect of self defence and violence.

Whether this came about thorough egotism, arrogance, capitalism or cultism I don’t know, but it is wrong.

It is also wrong for students to put this expectation on their teachers. It is wrong for students to think their teachers can know everything about violence and self defence and cover all things.

No one can know everything about everything and that is the depth and breadth of knowledge that would be needed.

Violence is a vast broad subject. It takes a tremendous amount of study or experience to know even slices of it.

My training has always been enhanced by the collaboration with or study under others. Sharing information and exploration of topics is what makes us or a system better because we can’t cover everything.

Students, practitioners and instructors have to let go of the perceived need for a style, system or teacher to be the “All Knowing One.”

Students – STOP EXPECTING YOUR TEACHER TO KNOW EVERYTHING.

Also, those selling their products have to stop bashing those who don’t cover your subject. It is okay to say if your school doesn’t cover (fill in the blank) then enhance your training by looking at (fill in the blank.)

Violence has components and those components have branches.

There is:

Pre-encounter
Possible de-escalation period
Physical assault
Post assault or avoidance

Each of these (and I am not saying I covered everything in this list) sections could have a book written on them and books on branches of each of these.

Take the aftermath or post assault (or avoidance), there is:

Immediate health and well-being – do you know how to self check for injuries?
Do you know whether to stay or leave?
Do you know whether, or when to speak to the authorities?
Do you know your rights as to when and if you must give a statement?
Do you know (have) a threat model you used to evaluate and act on?
Do you know how to articulate why you acted as you did (and have you practiced)?
Do you have self defence insurance?
Do you know a lawyer who knows the plea of self defence?
Do you know what the plea of self defence entails?
Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in criminal court?
Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in civil court?
Do you know the difference between criminal and civil courts?
Do you know how to get emotional or psychological help?
Do you know how to deal with friends or family who may treat you differently after defending yourself?
Do you know what to expect and how to deal with actually walking away from a confrontation?

You get the point and I haven't listed everything about the aftermath of a incident.

The physical side is the part we focus on and that too is vast and broad:

If you are not a woman and teaching women’s self defence have you studied the subject and are you aware of the difference? If you think you only need to prepare them for the rapist in the parkaid – go do the research.
Are you covering domestic violence, and do you know anything about it?
What are the parameters of the physical you will be covering and to who?
Military personnel have different self defence than civilians.
Law enforcement have different self defence than civilians.
Security have different self defence than civilians.
Personal protection has different self defence than civilians.
Doormen (bouncers) have different self defence than civilians.
And civilians can be replaced by any of the others.
Women and men are different.
Ground, standing, weapons, multiple aggressors.....

The above once again only touches on the vast areas of self defence so by now we should all be able to see no one style, system or person can know and cover it all.

No one lives long enough to full study each of these areas completely, and we need to stop expecting them to.

It should be okay for your style, system or instructor to say I don’t know.

It should be okay then for people to look beyond your style, system or instructor for those answers.

We need to look around for people who have done the work in the areas we cannot cover and tap into their efforts.

It is okay to look, read, watch, train and share.

It is okay not to know but we still need to go looking if we need to know.


Final note: if you are told any system, style or person does cover everything, well read the above again and come to your own conclusion.

Just some thoughts.

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/oes-your-style-system-cover-everything-dont-panic-it-cant/
Last edited by Rick Wilson on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:20 pm

Well, Rick...this has to be the most comprehensive post, the most practical, the most instructive of any post on the web I have ever seen.

Thank you.

We could take each line, and I probably will, of your post and make a thread out of it...

Also I think it should be posted in its entirety on the walls of any dojo.

Because if and when any of us should ever get involved in a nasty street fight...

This is what will be haunting our psyche forever...

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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:36 pm

Violence is a vast broad subject. It takes a tremendous amount of study or experience to know even slices of it.
Rick

I blame the teachers to start with...as they have brainwashed the student to believe in the arrogance of a certain type of training...or a certain style...

It reminds me of when I was a competitor in the 'trap' shotgun shooting game.

Some marginal shooters would always buy the latest shotgun, some of them costing up to $15K...thinking their game would improve...whereas some other would use old beat up shotguns but score 100 flying targets straight.

The black belt who was knifed 'non stop' and then had his throat cut for good measure by a devilish[Jamaican] gangbanger...truly believed what you wrote Rick, yet froze unable to mount any decent defense other than flail his way to a casket.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:58 pm

Students, practitioners and instructors have to let go of the perceived need for a style, system or teacher to be the “All Knowing One.”


I think what has happened is the martial arts have been infected by an HIV virus.

Here is something from CCW-SAFE

“A Cautionary Tale to All Drivers”

Part 4: Reasonable Fear

Ronald Gasser had been involved in a five-mile “tit-for-tat road rage” incident with former New York Jets running back Joe McKnight when Gasser found himself boxed in at a red light. McKnight got out of the car, approached Gasser, and leaned into his open driver’s side window. Gasser fired three shots from his .40 caliber Smith & Wesson pistol, killing McKnight with a round to his chest.

At trial, Gasser’s attorney referred to his client as “Ronnie.” He told jurors that “Ronnie is a 5’ 10” skinny little guy in his car being threatened by a guy he didn’t know.” Even though he was unarmed, McKnight, an athlete, must have seemed physically imposing.

Don West, veteran criminal defense attorney and national trial counsel for CCW Safe, said that considering Gasser was seatbelted in his car and in a vulnerable position, “McKnight would not need to be armed to be dangerous.”

In recorded testimony to law enforcement, Gasser claimed that before he fired, McKnight “lunged” at him. “I feared for my life at that point in time,” he said. “I was extremely fearful. I took the gun off safety and fired several shots.”

Prosecutors disagreed with Gasser’s account. Assistant District Attorney Seth Schute suggested to jurors that Gasser wasn’t afraid, rather he was enraged by being cut off by McKnight and the “tit-for-tat” interaction that followed.

At the intersection, with his .40 caliber Smith & Wesson on the passenger seat, “Ronald Gasser lured (McKnight) out of the car and shot him,” Schute said. “The trap is sprung.”

The jury would have to decide whether they believed Gasser feared for his life or whether he intentionally created an opportunity to shoot McKnight.

Critical testimony for the prosecution came from Veronica Hoye, who says she heard McKnight say “No, YOU get out of the car.” The suggestion is that Gasser had invited McKnight to his opened window.

While Gasser claimed that he was “waiting for the light to turn green” so he could get out of there, this testimony opens the possibility that “Ronnie” wasn’t quite as scared as he said he was.

Moreover, prosecutors were able to introduce evidence of a “prior bad act.” Ten years ago, at the very same intersection, Gasser got out of his car and punched another motorist in the head and the body.

While the assault led to an arrest, charges were eventually dropped. The defense team argued desperately to keep evidence of Gasser’s prior arrest out of the trial, but the judge decided to let it in, and an appeals court agreed, writing that the event “helped establish intent and lack of accident and mistake.”

With their verdict, the jury seemed to split the baby on whether the shooting was justified self-defense or intentional homicide. The prosecutors asked for a conviction on second degree murder, but the jury gave them manslaughter.

They may not have believed Gasser intentionally lured McKnight into a death trap, but they seemed to have felt he opened the door to the deadly encounter with McKnight, and that warranted a conviction on something.

For Gasser, at 56, a 30 year prison sentence is consequentially indistinguishable from the time he would have served for a second degree murder conviction.

Don West says that the evidence of Gasser’s “prior bad act,” probably proved insurmountable for the defense.

The lesson for the concealed carrier, he says, is that in a self-defense case, “your past will become your present.” You’ll be held accountable for any fights you’ve had in the past, any feud with a neighbor, any threat made, any post on Facebook. In Gasser’s case, it was particularly devastating because his prior road rage incident so closely resembled the events that lead to the shooting of Joe McKnight.


Any evidence that you are someone who goes looking for a fight could scuttle an argument of reasonable fear in a self-defense shooting -- no matter how genuine or justified that fear may be at the moment you pull the trigger.

In our next installment of “The Four Elements of Self-Defense,” we’ll explore how Ronald Gasser’s post-incident actions affected his legal defense.


The lesson for the concealed carrier, he says, is that in a self-defense case, “your past will become your present.” You’ll be held accountable for any fights you’ve had in the past, any feud with a neighbor, any threat made, any post on Facebook. In Gasser’s case, it was particularly devastating because his prior road rage incident so closely resembled the events that lead to the shooting of Joe McKnight.



This is another serious problem I have been warning against for years on my forum, to no avail.

How many posters, Rick, do you remember coming on board like gang busters, with all kinds of stories about their prowess, the fights they had won, in the ring or on the street, their implied superiority of style, of power, etc.,

All grist for the legal mill...making the case for a prosecutor against them.

Talk about being super/stupid...
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:32 pm

Immediate health and well-being – do you know how to self check for injuries?

Do you know whether to stay or leave?

Do you know whether, or when to speak to the authorities?

Do you know your rights as to when and if you must give a statement?

Do you know (have) a threat model you used to evaluate and act on?

Do you know how to articulate why you acted as you did (and have you practiced)?


Funny thing here is the position taken by some teachers who will say that you don't want any of this 'clutter' your mind at the moment you need to survive an attack.

But they don't tell you about the old adage of 'surviving a battle but losing the war'

When the war is lost the person will die a thousands ways instead of just one.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:30 am

Do you have self defence insurance?

Do you know a lawyer who knows the plea of self defence?

Do you know what the plea of self defence entails?

Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in criminal court?

Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in civil court?

Do you know the difference between criminal and civil courts?

Do you know how to get emotional or psychological help?

Do you know how to deal with friends or family who may not treat you differently after defending yourself?

Do you know what to expect and how to deal with actually walking away from a confrontation?


This stuff is way too critical to just ignore and hope for the best.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:32 am

Rick
The physical side is the part we focus on and that too is vast and broad:

If you are not a woman and teaching women’s self defence have you studied the subject and are you aware of the difference?

If you think you only need to prepare them for the rapist in the parkaid – go do the research.

Are you covering domestic violence, and do you know anything about it?

What are the parameters of the physical you will be covering and to who?

Military personnel have different self defence than civilians.

Law enforcement have different self defence than civilians.

Security have different self defence than civilians.

Personal protection has different self defence than civilians.

Doormen (bouncers) have different self defence than civilians.

And civilians can be replaced by any of the others.

Women and men are different.


Ground, standing, weapons, multiple aggressors.....
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:37 am

Rick
No one lives long enough to full study each of these areas completely, and we need to stop expecting them to.

It should be okay for your style, system or instructor to say I don’t know.

It should be okay then for people to look beyond your style, system or instructor for those answers.

We need to look around for people who have done the work in the areas we cannot cover and tap into their efforts.

It is okay to look, read, watch, train and share.

It is okay not to know but we still need to go looking if we need to know.


True...it is more like developing a certain awareness...deciding what's important to the self, and then going after that knowledge.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:46 am

And about the 'bashing' ...I am sure you are aware Rick that some of the teachers/organizations who don't address these components in their training, not even as much as recommending the reading of the works of Rory Miller....

are very quick at 'bashing' the teachers who do bring out these realities to the fore...Rory has outlined all this very clearly in his works.

One friend of mine says at times he was made to feel like a 'second class' citizen.

So be it. This is very serious 'business'_
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Rick Wilson » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:03 am

Thanks for the comments Van - I edited just for a few word errors.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:48 am

Rick
Do you have self defence insurance?

Do you know a lawyer who knows the plea of self defence?

Do you know what the plea of self defence entails?

Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in criminal court?

Do you know how to get help to defend yourself in civil court?

Do you know the difference between criminal and civil courts?

Do you know how to get emotional or psychological help?


Many if not all the students I cross train have taken the step of joining a legal service such as CCW-Safe that provides all of which you point out above as they have a plan for people who do not have a gun carry license for about $300 a year...no limit on criminal an civil defense...

They respond with criminal/civil defense lawyers wherever you might be, plus investigators/psychological counseling/and bail.

They don't cover 'payouts' if found guilty or liable...but this is remedied somewhat by liability Insurance.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby paulg » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:50 am

Some people wish so deeply that their self-defense system will give them invulnerability that they elevate it to a near-religion status. They protect it from contamination by other influences. They forbid their students from studying other systems or techniques. When I was a beginner I had commented to a very senior instructor that cross-training could be useful and was immediately and forcefully criticized for even having the thought...'don't even think about it until you can do Uechi perfectly.' Since you cannot ever do Uechi or anything else perfectly, this means never. I have seen other senior teachers turn up their noses at alternative methods with the dismissive comment 'that's not Uechi.' It is time we get past the view that Uechi-ryu is sacrosanct. It is very, very good and a foundation for all movement-based arts. Thankfully, we had Van, GEM, Bob Campbell and others who did not discourage the open mind.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:50 pm

paulg wrote:Some people wish so deeply that their self-defense system will give them invulnerability that they elevate it to a near-religion status. They protect it from contamination by other influences. They forbid their students from studying other systems or techniques. When I was a beginner I had commented to a very senior instructor that cross-training could be useful and was immediately and forcefully criticized for even having the thought...'don't even think about it until you can do Uechi perfectly.' Since you cannot ever do Uechi or anything else perfectly, this means never. I have seen other senior teachers turn up their noses at alternative methods with the dismissive comment 'that's not Uechi.' It is time we get past the view that Uechi-ryu is sacrosanct. It is very, very good and a foundation for all movement-based arts. Thankfully, we had Van, GEM, Bob Campbell and others who did not discourage the open mind.


As you point out Paul, it has all to do with common sense.

1.
Some people wish so deeply that their self-defense system will give them invulnerability that they elevate it to a near-religion status.


Yes, and why does this happen Paul? For those that do it seems almost like fleeing from mind demons seeking sanctuary in a Monastery for safety.

2.
They protect it from contamination by other influences. They forbid their students from studying other systems or techniques.


Well, you hear "Our style is a complete style" but we don't hear a definition of 'complete' when bringing up the points Rick Wilson has enumerated for us to consider.

For example, in Uechi Ryu, there are some who truly believe there is a grappling proficiency without the need to even cross practice a grapple...Joe Pomfret developed a particular set of grapple techniques with a Uechi foundation...but not many take avantage of it ...

It is all in sanchin or something like that.

Also we don't hear 'complete' being defined when it comes to tactical deployment of techniques with a view to financial/criminal and civil consequences...again it must be all in sanchin.

The only caveat here would be the 'burning in' of too many conflicting response actions when cross training, as it will sabotage operant conditioning.

A student should realize that under stress the body will only allow some simple reactionary response of the type mostly practiced and ingrained by repetition and of the kind congruous with what primal survival instincts dictate to a body in self preservation.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:04 pm

3.
I have seen other senior teachers turn up their noses at alternative methods with the dismissive comment 'that's not Uechi.'


I think Uechi can be thought of more as a physical concept rather than a true standard of performance...variations that individually fit the practitioner can be called 'My Uechi' not a general main stream standard we see here and in Okinawa. As long as one can show he is effective with his interpretation of the classical standard, then 'his Uechi' it will be.


4.
It is time we get past the view that Uechi-ryu is sacrosanct. It is very, very good and a foundation for all movement-based arts. Thankfully, we had Van, GEM, Bob Campbell and others who did not discourage the open mind.


In a nutshell.
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Re: Does your System cover everything? Don’t panic – it can'

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:12 pm

And as moves go, we all know that an application of any standard of moves is fraught with the 'Perils of Pauline' where a 'holier than thou' student can suddenly find himself in the middle of a slapstick pie fight while hanging on a cliff.

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