JOHN THURSTON is back and eager to discuss Western Martial Arts, especially relating to its history.



Postby JOHN THURSTON » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:51 pm


As noted this is primarily a little different than originally envisioned.

I did engage in a spirited discussion Re: the basic fence lunge with my hopefully to be fence instructor and I have asked the maestro to be a co-contributor to this forum. he prefers not to be addresssed by the honorific.

I hope this moves the forum in a more diverse direction vis a vis swordplay.

I do recommend, in passing, "The Science of Fencing" and "Renaissance Sworsmanship" as reference books.

In the meantime, personally, I will stick with what I do know best. Thus I hold (obviouslty) no ill will to those who wished to see "more western" martial artists commented upon on this forum.

So---what's a 6mm 06 anyway? Why should we care? Well whether one does or does not care is a personal matter.

Technically there is no 6mm/06 made. Theoretically it would be similar to a .25-06 in that it would be a .30-06 cartridge "necked down" to .25 caliber.

Many Wildcats-so to speak-are based on the '06 or on other cartridges such as the 7X57Mauser and .308 Winchester.

From the 7X57 we get the 6mm Remington and the .257 Roberts. The former was finally inroduced in factory production, but the latter has faded away.

From the .308 we derive the 7mm/08 and 243 Win and .260 Remington at a minimum.

Thus many wildcats (a cartridge persoanlly developed off another case) are based on older factory cases and/or military rounds.

In an upcomming post we will talk about "who's the fastest of them all".

For decades the answer to this would have been the .220 Swift, whihc was based on a cartridgge that was never very widely accepted or commercialy made: the "6mm Lee Navy".

This was necked down to .224 to 'make' the .220 Swift, and no other cartridge really outpaces this speedster.

A story goes about a hunter who went out of camp to shoot some light game of some sort with his .220 Swift.

Why he might have done this is a mystery to me.

In any event, he was accosted by a Brown Bear while on his side trip.

Downing a 600 bear with a 55gr pellet is not a survival trait, but the hunter knew better, at least, than to try and run.

When the bear reared up, as I has seen a few blackies do, and opened its mouth, our misguided Nimrod fired a round into its undesreving bruin's face.

The 55gr bullet entered the mouth, struck the top of the palate and shattered every bone in the poor bruins head.

I know it is not PC, but better the bear than the man. I realize many would take the other side of this notion. In many ways, I do not blame them a bit.

The .220 Swift, although still made in short runs from time to time, has never been popular as it is very hard on barrels and the ammunition is hard to get.

It was replaced in popularity by the ubiquitous .22-250, itself based on the .250 Savage (not in production) is not quite as fast as the Swift, but it is a lot easier on the barrels.

The 6mm-06 may have actually been experimented with and noted in written material that I have not found.

However, the ever daring "tommorows rifles today' Roy Weatherby, designer of the Mkv Rifile which Sensei Van has in .300 WM, ponied up a '06 length case "belted" and necked to 6mm.

It does not pretend to be a bear killer, but it is perhaps the most pleasant of the Weatherby cartridges to shoot. The .224 Weatherby never did well and was discontinued, bued the others (.250, .257, .270, 7mm, .300, .340, .378 and .460 soldier on.)

The Remington .300 Ultra Mag now out does the WEa. Mag. In terms of powder capacity at least.

Its competitors, the 6mm Remington and .243 Win sell many times over the numbers than the .240.

Nonetheless, the .240 Weatherby is faster than both the above and is not so fast as to be hard on a barrel.

My version is very light with 2 lugs knocked off the normal 9 lug MkV Action (an interupted screw thread design as opposed to the protypical twin lug Mauser derived actions such as the one illustrated in "Anatomy of a Custom Rifle")

The rifle is Black Glass beaded metal with a browm composite stock.

I will post a picture if any interest is shown at all.

Well, you know, it's what I do.

Other 6mm's on the rack do include a .243 (Husquavarna) and 6mm (FN).

As noted the former is based on the .308 and the latter on the 7X57.

Yes, yes---but it is where bullet pushers come from, much as the 5.56mm military cartridge in use now for over 40 years is a variant of the .222 Magnum, which is rarely chambered now because of the dominance of the .223.

The strong point of all 6mm's is the 100 grain bullet of various makes sent out in the 3000 fps range. the Weatherby ratchets up tp 3200 fps. I would prefer a Nosler bullet, but will have to load these myself.

i had an unfortunate experience with a .243 wherein a Large Buck shrugged off 3-4 shoulder hits and crossed the Sako River into the mountains and left me with a very unpleasant tracking problem lasting into the next day.

However, if one is aware of the limitations on these calibers, you will enjoy them.

(and it was a heck of a big deer-dealing with a shot gone bad is not fun)

One recommends Robert Ruarks "Use Enough Gun".

I realize this forum is the lowest on the PC scale, but, I do what I do the best I can.

I have invited many to make contributions that specifically interest them and thus expand the forums base-to no avail I might add in some instances, but the invitation remains.

The MKV in this caliber is NOT your "best all around weapon", it's just fun.

It's best use (similar to that of the .2506) is probably on antelope.

Antelope. one might argue, are perhaps as well shot and used for food rather than, as is the case on Wyoming Highways. knocked off the road by a semi and simply left to rot.

Just an unpopular point of view, but mine one.

So the .240 might as well be deemed a 6mm-06 'belted'.

It's not particulary cheap to shoot and it is not the best "one rifle for all purposes" weapon My Wife will like if because it does not have a heavy recoil.

Last edited by JOHN THURSTON on Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Van Canna » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:13 am

Great news about your fencing maestro writing on the forum. The concepts of fencing carry over nicely into Uechi.

.240 Weatherby magnum. Nice caliber. Wish I had bought one. Deer to black bear?

Do post a picture of it.

My .300 WM as you have seen was my dream rifle. Bought it in 1962 with the first earnings from teaching Uechi at the Hect house on American Legion hwy_ a job that Jack Summers got me.

Will topple anything in North America. It has also dowened elephants in Africa with solids. I like the Nosler partitions.

What is the ballistic difference between the W_240 and the .243?

 I realize this forum is the lowest on the PC scale, but, I do what I do the best I can. <

Word of advise my friend. Apologize to ‘no-one’ _ write what you want, as you want, when you want, how you want and screw the PC ‘goody two shoes’ _

I have COUPLE OF good words that define them:

Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an ##### Surrounded by Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.
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Postby Stryke » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:01 am

Definately need pictures 8)

Of 6mms and such

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:24 pm

I will get pictures up.

Personally, I feel it a bit light for bear and put it in the Medium deer and antelope category (open country)

. However, although not a dedicated Bear caliber, it would probably do the job. It is just not my first choice.Image

My other MKV is in 7mm/08

It moves the semi standard 100 gr. 'pill' at about 3200 fps.

This can be matched witht he 6mm Rem, maybe, using Norma 205.

IMR (as opposed to H4831 surplus 50cal powder) 4831 will have to do as the Norma Powder is difficult to obtain.

I will post pictures of my 6mm stable (FN-Husquavrna and the new MKV alonside their respective cartridges.

The 6mm Remington is the most punch for the money, and I opine that the Remington 700 i(n 6mm in this 'class) is the best rifle for the money, now that the Model 70 has been taken from us.

A "controled feed' rifle woud not be necessary when using any of the 6mms.

Karamojo Bell used the 'parent' cartridge of the 6mm Remington to down (again no longer a PC thing) over 100 Bull elephants using solids (solid heavy guage copper) with his beloved 7X57.

Barnes makes solids for US use and they would be of special help in a .45-70 bolt gun which can be raised to 'grizzley' killer quick if one's action is strong enough and the load developed with care..

The Nosler, as noted, is otherwise the prerferred bullet, especially in any attempt to use a 6mm on med/large game.

Sierra makes a 104gr match bull in 6mm, but it fouls barrels (which need to be at least 1-7 twist) very quickly and the match rifle I had built to use the 104 gr. projectile shot well, but fouled too quickly---sort of something we do not consider in these modern times.

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Postby Van Canna » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:26 pm

Nice rig :D
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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:50 pm

The rifle shown for contrast is a 2 lug M700 "Classsic Mountain rifle" in 2506, which is as close as can get to the Weatherby for reasonalble dollars.

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