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A Heartless Comparison

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:30 am
Surely I will be chastised for saying what follows and I will, perhaps, deserve it, so have at me.

But when I self importantly took on the mantle of Hoplologist, I became obliged to, asometimes, just say what happened without opinion.

To Date their have been 4091 Coalition Deaths in Iraq since the start of the war.

There have been 27,036 causalties in the same time Frame.

Antietam, again without opinions or commentary, was a Battle that Historians have divided into several Phases.

The "Morning" phase itself is divided into subphases, the first of which was "the Cornfield".

In the "Cornfield" subphase of the morning phase on Sept. 17, 1862, casualties sufferedby the Union forces (Army of the Potomac) totaled 4,350 and the Army of Northern Virginia suffered 4,200 casualties.

By the end of the single bloodiest day in American military history 12,400 Union Soldiers were casualties out of 56,000 engaged.

On the Confederate side by the end of the day, 10, 300 men were casualties out of 37,400 engaged.

By the end of the Day 2100 Union Soldiers were dead, 9350 wounded and 750 missing or captured.

Confederate losses were 1550 killed, 7750 wounded and 1150 missing or captured.

Totals speak for themselves---3,650 Americans were dead in one day of battle, in which Robert Gould Shaw Of "One Gallant Rush" fame was wounded while serving in the Army of the Potomac. (I will check which regiment he served with then.)

Food for thought or incentive to attack the messenger?

You decide.

I'll be here.

I will go so far as to recommend "One Gallant Rush" (the base for the movie "Glory") as a must read for Civil War students. It wold be debasing to refer to such students as "buffs". (oops, sorry an opinion)

I hope to add pictures of the Battlefield if the thread develops in such a way as to require it.

The Battlefield is in need of some protection.

That "Bloody Ground", made up of bitter fights at the "Sunken Road" and the "Dunker Church" which have not received the level of recognition as has "The Hallowed Ground" of Gettysburg, whose component sub battles are rather more well known.

Perhaps they should be, I am not a judge on this thread.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:46 am
by f.Channell
Hi John,

Back then they had no protective clothing, no helmets, no military hospitals, as these came about late in the war. Governor Holbrook of Vermont was instrumental in that (my 2nd cousin 5 times removed). No doubt this added to the numbers.From Wikipedia
Governor Holbrook served as governor during what many consider the darkest days of the American Civil War. His administration saw the recruitment of 10 infantry regiments, 2 light artillery batteries, and 3 sharpshooter companies. Under his administration, as well, Vermont built three military hospitals in the state which were "soon credited by the United States medical inspector with perfecting a larger percentage of cures than any United States military hospital record elsewhere could show."[

At the time they were fighting for the preservation of the Union and the freedom of an entire enslaved race.

Lot of what if's in that war as well. What if England had backed the South? They almost did.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:34 pm
by Hugh
f.Channell wrote:Hi John,

<Portion Deleted>

Lot of what if's in that war as well. What if England had backed the South? They almost did.


At the time of the Trent Affair when the Confederate diplomats/agents were taken off of a British steamer on the high seas by an American Navy frigate, the British Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, wanted to send a message that would have been tantamount to a declaration of war but Price Consort Albert of Saxe-Coburg Gotha sat up all night reworking the phrasing in order to give the Lincoln Administration a way out of the situation and this is what Queen Victoria chose to send. At the time, Albert was ill and the stress of that all-nighter contributed to his death shortly thereafter. But it was not in vain as Lincoln and the calmer minds in his cabinet were able to use the letter from Queen Victoria to defuse the situation on this side just as Prince Albert had done in London. This resulted in Mason and Slidell being released and Great Britain never becoming actively involved in the War. If she had, the Royal Navy could have easliy broken the Union blockade, had they been so inclined.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:32 am
by f.Channell
I was touring the Adams Mansion and John Quincy Adams library a month ago. They mentioned during the tour that one of John Adams descendants was a diplomat and credited for his part in stopping their involvement. Last name might not have even been Adams. I'll have to look into it.

Mason and Slidell I believe were locked up in Fort Warren in Boston Harbor.

Surprisingly enough there was an escape attempt by three confederates, One by the name of Thurston. 8O


One Small Point.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:51 pm
I am not dropping this point or thread.

I just wish to note that the information thus far received by me has been from my own library. (ex: "The Bloody Ground" by either Cornwell or Coyle or or other references) , from you , or the actual Antietam website.

This is far from my strongest Hoplogical area, so I wil not be correcting or judging anyone but myself.

Thanks for the note about the Thurstons, Fred. I have been able to trace the name and general geneology to Gloucester Ma., Freedom New Hampshire, Medfield, MA , Maine, Virginia, Texas and Nova Scotia (aka New Scotland although the Romans refered to the area as Caledonia. As a happenstance i note that there is an Island in the Pacific near to Savo and Guadalcanal Named New Caledonia).

Athough the name seems and is apparently Saxon or Nordic (Thor's Son)and appears in history and the present day as Thurstan (old) Thureson, Thureison, Thorson, Thurson etc...a strong Scots Irish influence seems to be present.

They were Definitely not "Mayflower" folk but seem to be tied to the Massachussets Bay Colony initially as opposed to Plymouth Colony. New Hampshire was close by and Maine was still part of Massachussetts.

My own immediate forbears came from Port Maitland, N.S. and it has been difficult to get beyond that point as the Town Records are not online.

Port Maitland was a refuge for many of "Clan Maitland" (of Scotland I assume) and others at various times. Note, I have not researched the area of the origins of Clan Maitland.

It is remotely possible that the Thurstons of Port Maitland, got there in "Oliver Wiswell" (Kenneth Roberts) fashion ie: by being ejected from the the Boston area. In the case of many such refugees the chosen destination were the Canadian Maritime Provinces.

For an 'Anglo' refugee from Revolutionary America, this is where many had ties and/or would have felt most comfortable. I speak of Port Maitland and Yarmouth only as the Province has a strong French component.

Wiswells and perhaps Thurstons were perhaps among the many "Tory" loyalists 'asked" to leave the Boston area, a veritable hotbed of revolution, where in other areas of the East and Northeast they were tolerated as long as no real actual assistance to the Loyalist cause was noted.

Robert's writings show a strong New England Base: (Northwest Passage; Portsmouth New Hamsphire; Arundel Maine, Rabble In Arms, Oliver Wiswell;Massachusetts and, "Captain From Connecticut" about a privateer captain I think)

I digress. We'll go , back to Antietam and the Civil War vis a vis the present struggle. .

By way of Comparison again, does anyone really feel that an entire sex is not enslaved in countries that adhere strictly to some customs of the Islamic past?

My one time Pakistani born Paralegal, who was Catholic, female, and had an English surname, felt compelled to leave Pakistan.

I can't imagine why? (sic)

She told me that many Pakistanis of all religions send their children to what we would call "Parochial" schools as the education is good.

But she also said that that did not prevent hers and her friends from occasionly being subjected to verbal and physical abuse, rising only as high being hit by a thrown stone.

I don't suppose the Catholic School Uniforms helped.

Of course that begs the question, why should we not follow a 'prime directive' ie: not to interfere with the development of another culture except in defense of one's own?

Personally I think, and others have stated, that many Arab Nations are stuck in the 15th Century. Should we always intervene. NO of course not, unless this stunted development or mutation threatens our national interests as OBL has.

OBL instead seeks to forces his views upon the world and, as proof of the thereom, invited the U.S. to convert, not understanding that any individual in this country is free to convert should they so choose, and that the state does not 'impose' religion on its citizens.

I hope Stryke tumbles over this if he should desire a partial reading list for French and Indian War novels and/or novels of the Revolution and The Civil War.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:25 pm
by Hugh
There is an excellent monograph that Kenneth Roberts wrote that was published in 1958 and is now out of print. But you can get it through Amazon: ... 435&sr=1-3

I have it and it is a great little book on Daniel Morgan's greatest battle, the centerpiece of the defeat of Cornwallis in the Carolinas. Morgan beat Tarleton hands down in it using a tactic that became THE classic use of militia.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:24 pm
Was this Morgan the "Swamp Fox".

I do not know but the name does not immediately ring a bell.

Nonetheless, although Washington did not 'trust' the Militias, many of his campaigns and Battles could not have been won without them.

I just disturbed him when a Militiaman or unit would just pack up and leave at harvest time.

We have discussed the three major components of the Rebel forces during the conflict: Regulars, Raised Companies and Militia.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:04 pm
by Hugh
Daniel Morgan was a Virginian and a rifleman. He had been a contract wagoneer during the French and Indian War and been flogged by a British officer for some very minor offense. He, quite naturally, had no use for the British. He was the commander at Cowpens and, since he knew militia, was able to use them well.

Francis Marion was the Swamp Fox, a guerilla leader in the low country around Charleston, South Carolina. The Mel Gibson character in "The Patriot", a horrible film IMO, was very loosely based upon him.