Methods of Attack

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Methods of Attack

Postby JimHawkins » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:17 pm

Let's see some discussion on the attack, or counter attack.. This is the meat and potatoes of combat. What are the key elements that make an attack or counter attack successful? How can folks put those concepts to use?

Too many topics around here IMO where folks are just saying "Yeah that’s good," or "No that *****," etc, without adding any ideas or thoughts to the discussion. Attacking or counter attacking is something that all martial artists need to do in one form or another so lets hear from you!

What concepts or methods do you use for initiating the attack or for counter attacking??

I'll let someone else start off if they care to.
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Like this?

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:37 pm


Postby MikeK » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:08 pm

Attack from the blind side.
For the counter attacks Jim, you might want to play dungeon master and give a somewhat detailed attack scenerio and let people use that as a jumping off point.
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Postby jorvik » Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:26 pm

Well folks tend to think of this as a purely physical thing :roll: ..that's dojo mentality, but for a street fight it's different and you have to get your training to resemble that a little. That is why somebody who hits a bag a lot is usually better equiped to fight than somebody who practises an MA.
simply because all that he knows is how to punch hard :D :D .he has no concept of backing off, blocking or using stuff that only works with compliance, whereas Joe Karate thinks that he can stop that by using move number 23 :oops: :oops: .......and it isn't just that it is the mental edge as Kia, in the street a good Kia is to say "What the fck are you looking at you piece of schitt".or comands like "get the fck out of my face dipschitt"..........say something like that and they know that you mean business and that you ain't scared of the consequences, that they aren't a threat to you...they are just a fool waiting for a hiding :twisted:
One good training aid to do with a partner is to have him just stand there and you punch him ( Not making contact though) and he does the same back to you.then you get out of silly ideas about when to start and stop.........and you also get the feel of vulnerability. Generally the hardest thing in a fight is finding range.and though some have said back peddling is bad, you will usually find that your average punter won't punch through a target they will tend to surface just a slight backward movement and you can slip a punch. Also there are lots of ruses to get close or to defend. You can take of a shoe and use it to smack him with the heel, throw an ash tray at him or beer, spit on him, light a cigarette or cigar and burn him. Kick low shadowless kicks to the shin or knee or use your finger to jab his eye like when you turn off a light switch, no strength needed and very un telegraphed....once you've got the first punch should be all over :lol: ( :evil: :lol: )

Re: Methods of Attack

Postby RA Miller » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:29 am

JimHawkins wrote:Let's see some discussion on the attack, or counter attack.. This is the meat and potatoes of combat. What are the key elements that make an attack or counter attack successful? How can folks put those concepts to use?

What concepts or methods do you use for initiating the attack or for counter attacking??

I'll let someone else start off if they care to.

Hey. Been too busy and too drained to type much on the BBS.

There are three basic engagement patterns IMO for this discussion- the ones I didn't see coming, the ones I do see coming and the ones I initiate.

Each of these is affected by the level of force I'm authorized. For purposes of the discussion the would be restraint (I want to get the threat in handcuffs with little or no injury), damage (I don't care how badly he is hurt but it would be better not to kill), or lethal (I've been greenlighted or perceive a clear and immediate lethal threat).

Ambush survival, the ones I didn't see coming, are the reasons for the entries we practiced at camp. They must be gross motor movement, do damage AND unbalance and cross distance with maximal protection against a wide variety of attack. Because I'm an infighter, they also take the center of the conflict. They also have to be simple and flexible enough to train the same thing to a wide variety of different assault types in order to get it to reflex speed. In my opinion you should train one that works on visual clues (Dracula's cape, spear head or pass/parry), one that works on tactile cues (drop step with elbow lead) and one for overwhelming force, either lifted or knocked off your feet (wrecking ball sutemi).

If I see it coming and de-escalation isn't working, there are a wide variety of mental and social tricks to get the advantage, but my initial movement is almost always a lead hand / lead leg dorp-step "hand shake" pass on the threat's elbow. It puts me behind him and gives me control of his spine.

Lastly, if I'm initiating, it depends on how much prep time there is. In the perfect world, I assemble a team, pracice the motions and have the advantage in weapons, armor, numbers and surprise before I move. Solo, I prefer to control the spine and the knee from behind; or move in a friendly fashion to a good range and either strike the brainstem, slam the nerves above the knee or sweep depending on the level of force authorized.

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Postby Rick Wilson » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:12 am

Good comments keep them coming.

Rory nicely upped the anti. :D
Rick Wilson

Postby jorvik » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:35 pm

Rory operates within clearly defined parameters of what he can and cannot do and so to , do the inmates that he has to face, they have a culture we do not :cry: :cry: as an example I have seen cases where smartly dressed busness men have been attacked by a gang of thugs armed with knives :cry: .....they didn't realise what was coming at them....No culture, in fact worse.their culture was arguments in the boardroom, over expences etc....different worlds colliding.......You have to know what the problem is before you can solve it :)

Postby JimHawkins » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:07 pm

Thought I'd finally add to this..

Very good points about classifying the objective and level of force as Rory had illustrated.. I think that's an important factor to consider when training in any system or style.

Here are some core WCK attacking concepts. WCK attack in a nutshell is about filling the space that exists between the core of your body and the core of the opponent with "stuff."

Once a new student asked my Sifu, "How does WCK protect itself?" And Sifu replied, "How do you keep people from getting into a room?" "Lock the door?" Asked the student.. "A lock can be picked or broken," Sifu said, he added, "A door can be kicked down or removed," "This kind of defense is weak." The student gave up, "So how do you stop someone from going into a room then?" "Sifu would always smile and laugh when giving the answer, "If you don't want anyone to get into a room, you fill it up with junk, bricks will work, then no one can get in the room."

In order for students to feel confident in and learning how to use a WCK attack they must be given some "way" of learning how to use and see the attack as a way of "defense", to use the centerline attack to protect themselves, against attacks that are coming or may come in just a moment. At first, students are shy, timid, they will hesitate to act and engage because they see engaging as dangerous or "risky." What must be taught to students one way or another is that, it is not attacking that is risky, rather it is NOT attacking that is risky..

So to protect the "room" and stay "safe" it is said one must fill the room up with junk, which in this case means a stream of unending attack. In the case of WCK the attacks fill up this center space with energy and leveraged body parts and continuous attacking moves, like striking, stepping, wedging, pressing, jamming, pulling, attaching, etc. These offensive elements actually fill the space that is directly between combatants providing a window of forward attacking energy that students are taught is there to protect them, a kind of offensive shield that must exist in order to remain "safe." This "safe" area of attack also creates a space to move through in order to continue with each movement and grind the opponent into hamburger ASAP.

WCK does not use fakes, nor does it teach to look for openings or ripe targets because of the time lag. The only “target” in the system is the center of the opponent and perhaps the opponent’s state of mind. Attacks to the opponent’s center generaly start from our center and move to their center. This ensures that power generated has the whole body behind it and always "attacks" the center of gravity of the opponent in order to break structure, provide an entry path and limit his ability to counter with any real power.

Since there is no attempt to disguise the attacks and since the attacks use the shortest fastest line they have a very good chance at making contact and also a good chance at surprising the opponent into a defensive mode <see flinch :lol: >for just a moment. This is very important when WCK attacks because if you can get the opponent to “defend” a passive action, it allows the WCK attacker’s timing to move ahead of the opponent’s, as in attack > defend, attack > defend, once this advantage is gained the end is near.

Once this timing trap has been set the attacker is only reacting to our attacks and at this point the engagement will normally be at close quarters with lots of contact as the opponent struggles to maintain his degrading defense.

Now in contact WCK can fully express itself in all its nuances and take advantage of the special “conditions” that exist at this close range as the misuse of the line can be exploited much more so. As this stage a student will rely on his hundreds of hours of sensitivity training to go into an autopilot mode where he is able to accelerate his timing without use of thought or sight beyond that of most opponents. At this range the centerline is completely controlled using the opponent’s resistance. This allows transition into the last phase of the attack, where, having gained control of a clear and free line of attack all the nastiest finishing moves, strikes, kicks, breaks, cranks, etc., may be employed without further interference and with full power at point blank range.

That’s WCK attack in a nutshell.
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Postby -Metablade- » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:51 am

I feel it is impossible to be prepared at all times for the unexpected. I practice "Shodou Seisu" Which translates roughly into "environment awareness".

Example: Don't go to a bad part of town at night with with $100.00 bills sticking out of your pocket. That's obvious.

But as well, assess a room before and while entering. Trust your feeling. Know when to leave, when to back down, when to run, and when to strike first.

I gravitate towards shuto uchi.
First strike, last resort (It means I could not run)
I use the opponents eyes (failing that) (shoulders) to project intended his strike zone.

If fortune is with me, and I assess the attack is non-lethal. I shoot for the nose, or Philtrum, followed by jodan zuki to the chin.
If I project a lethal attack (Which I hope never happens)
It is shuto uchi straihgt to the throat. Break windpipe.
Game over.
Run like the wind.
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