Iraqi Constitution: Islam "Official Religion of the Sta

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Panther
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Iraqi Constitution: Islam "Official Religion of the Sta

Post by Panther »

Article 7 of the New Iraqi Constitution makes Islam the "Official Religion of the State" and Iraqi Christians are being persecuted. Iraqi Christians did not get even ONE position within the newly formed government! Iraqi Christians are fleeing Iraq in record numbers...

This is what our soldiers fought for? This is what our soldiers DIED for? This is what WE put in place? Actually, it's what was pushed into place with the help of the UNITED NATIONS!

Where's the provision for "freedom of religion" we have and hold so dear HERE?

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/ ... 4753.shtml

8O :twisted:
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Post by Dana Sheets »

:cry:
Did you show compassion today?
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

What's so infuriating about all this is that Saddam's foreign minister, Tariq Aziz, is a Christian and he obtained a high place in Saddam's government. It would be a highly disturbing turn of events if Christian persecution increased after the war is over.

That being said, I wouldn't get in the UN's case too much about all this. Nothing happens in Iraq unless we say so, and since Pres. Bush doesn't like the UN all that much, I don't think he really cares what they have to say.

I really want to know what we were thinking in allowing this to happen in the first place. And the same BS happened in Afghanistan as well. One really hopes that in due time these two repressive regimes weren't overthrown for other, equally repressive regimes.

I had hoped for better....

Gene
cxt
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Post by cxt »

Its another damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If we tried to do it USA style where there was NO official State relgion then you would hear torrents of abuse on our "disrespect" of culture.

Torrents of abuse on the USA "imposing" its views on the world.

And torrents of abuse over our "force feeding" "our values and relgion" down the throats of Musliums.

You can't win.
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Post by sarosenc »

:cry: Sadly, this result and the fears and suffering of the Iraqi Christians is not dissimilar or distant from the attitude toward Christians around the world. Even here, against the background of the predominate secularist, post-modernistic and moral selectivist culture that pervades much of America ... media, political, and educational. :cry:
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Post by IJ »

Yes, the American bias against christians is particularly evident in the history of our presidency--Jews, muslims, secular humanists, and rastafarians... but not a Christian among them. Nor are they able to control a substantial voting block in this country. It's quite disturbing.

Honestly, Christians are doing fine in this country. Conditions elsewhere are indeed awful. But even while the faithful control the government, the media, and the school systems, we should keep in mind that the limitations they face (like teaching creation, or having a state supported religion) are ust the kinds of things these Christians set out to create after all the religious persecution they were sick of in their homelands... and I'm certainly glad they're in place here as well.

As for state religion in the middle east... it *****, but sometimes the american ideal isn't sustainable. If they can strike a middle road that is moderate enough (prevents persecution) on one end and islamic enough (to prevent an overthrow in favor of another taliban) on the other end, that's what politics is all about.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther

I respectfully wish to show you a counter to your source. Here is a thread I started some time back. Check out my first post.

Savor every victory, no matter how small

Somebody's got some explaining to do...

The original link to the Iraqi interim constitution still works. Read it yourself - it's not that long.

- Bill
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Post by Panther »

Fine Bill...

I went to your thread and saw nothing to counter the point of this thread... namely that Christians are being persecuted with impugnity in Iraq and Iraqi Christians are leaving as fast as they can...

So then I went to the link from your thread that goes to the LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD... And what do I read?
Article 7.

A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam... may be enacted during the transitional period.
Reading more, it does guarantee freedom of religion... however, the whole point is that is not being allowed. The whole point is that Iraqi Christians are being attacked and are basically fleeing the country. The whole point is that once an "official religion of the State" is put in place, that basically nullifies any guarantee of freedom of religion. THAT's the point!

So... I fail to see what more "explaining" I need to do. Islam was made the official state religion... and Christians are being persecuted. And regardless of any other wording about freedom of religion, there is one, single "official" State religion. Says so right on the link you provided.

And IJ... if you don't like the place, how about taking a vacation in a country more to your chosing. You see, that's one of those rare things that's allowed in this country... You're free to vote for change or leave if you don't like things. Perhaps you can book a flight with all of the hollywierd folks who swore they'd leave if "W" became POTUS. I'm not holding my breath for them to leave, but it sure would be nice for them to tell the truth once in their not so miserable lives.

Oh... and before you get upset, that's meant to be just as funny as the sarcasm in your post...

Sheesh... Any other complaints can be sent to Michael Moore or dev/null...
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther

It's been a while since we've had a chat online. We should do it more often. Better yet, are you riding that bad boy to camp? 8) Got a second one? 8) 8)

Believe me, I've thought about all the nuances here. Akil will tell you that I've gotten in his face (so to write) when he suggested we (the U.S.) would never allow Iraq to have a Muslim regime. I told him I thought theocracies were a stupid idea, no matter what the religion du jour was.

I'm the scientist, remember? My blood boils when I think about Galileo, creationists, etc., etc. ad nauseum. I did 7 years of hell in a parochial school and survived with my knuckles intact. I laughed my buns off when I first heard George Carlin, Class Clown and his spoof of religious education.

Anyhow, back to Iraq. So what have we here? Read the language very, very carefully. Yes, there is an official state religion. But...
is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam... may be enacted during the transitional period.
That falls just short of a theocracy. When you consider what it could have been (look at Iran), it's a small victory.

When you think about it, our own Republic built a nation based on Christianity. Few laws contradict the universally agreed tenets of Christianity. And when they do, we have to listen to the likes of Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, "Dr." James Kennedy, etc. They're still fighting to have prayer in school, the ten commandments hung up in courtrooms, legislation dictating reproductive issues, a ban on life-saving stem cell research, etc.

I think a state religion is a stupid idea, and agree with you here. But it's there in the constitution. Article 13 F states...
Each Iraqi has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religious belief and practice. Coercion in such matters shall be prohibited.
That's a start.

The reality may be different in Iraq - today. On the other hand, the reality was very different for many minorities in the United States as well. Remember the Salem witch trials? Remember the KKK? It still exists in the south. So do other white supremacist groups. A gaggle of the morons came up from North Carolina a year or two ago and preached hate to a small group of whites with low IQ and no future.

What you speak of *****, Panther. The reality is even broader than that. Groups of Shia militiamen recently raided a liquor store, killed the owner's son (after he refused to close it), whipped his brother, and threw all the bootie out into the Tigris river. This fascist, bone-headed behavior is what you get when you allow madrasses to educate the populace.

This will take time. It took centuries for us in this country, and we stilll don't have it down right at times. Democracy and representational governments can be very ugly at times.

But when the rule of law takes hold, the freedoms are there to be defended.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

On soap box...

Next time you hear the Christian Right preach in the political arena, remind them of how bad it can be in the Middle East. Then ask them how they are any different.

Off soap box...

- Bill
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Post by Panther »

Bill,

I understand and agree with your points...

However, I must point out something here...
Bill Glasheen wrote:On the other hand, the reality was very different for many minorities in the United States as well. Remember the Salem witch trials? Remember the KKK? It still exists in the south. So do other white supremacist groups. A gaggle of the morons came up from North Carolina a year or two ago and preached hate to a small group of whites with low IQ and no future.
I grew up in the South... namely North Carolina. There were plenty of racist @$$holes... and they weren't all white. I moved to the North... namely Boston, over half my life ago. One of the first things spoken to me by a Bostonian was ( with a fake, mocking southern accent), "Yall mus' be frum tha south... I bet yall jus' HATES N*****S! Right?" Let me tell you... That wasn't tolerated by my parents, in our home, in the schools I was taught in NOR in the churches I attended growing up! People who talked like that were... well... considered much, much worse than those they villified. So, that's my very first impression and very first rememberance of being greeted in the "wonderful, liberated world known as" boston! Now... In the second half (plus) of my life, living in New England, I've met plenty of great people of all races, just as I know plenty of great people in the South of all races... But the southerons don't hold a candle to the racists and bigots I've met in New England! Why? Well... you see, growing up my Daddy taught me one really fantastic aspect of free speech... and the very best reason to let anyone say whatever they want to... When the racists speak up, I know exactly who the rat bastards are. (Goody for me!) In this country now there's this big PC push to shut them up. But, that's the way it is here in the North already! Has been for 25+ years since I got here. I hear it because I still have a Southern accent and those type of folks make the very wrong assumption that being Southern equates to being a racist bigot. You would not believe the number of people around New England that think that... and it would shock people more if they knew who some of these most unlikely "upstanding citizens" were! But, I get pulled aside sometimes and talked to in a whisper... "I know you understand about the <fill in the group here... it ranges "n******", "g**ks", "sp***", "ki***", "ch****", "fa**"... and the list goes on>." Those folks don't realize my connections to some of those groups... Naaaa... I think those "lower IQ" Idiots from the South are more honest with showing their ignorance than the smile-at-the-minority-while-trying-to-figure-out-how-to-stab-them-in-the-back folks I've met around here. I wonder how many folks will now be wondering if they ever said anything to me they perhaps shouldn't have? ;) 8O
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I wouldn't get in the UN's case too much about all this. Nothing happens in Iraq unless we say so
yup

and were`s the WMD

oh bad intelligence from the UK huh .....

wish the US had just said ... well Saddams just a bad bugger and the un wont inforce there decisions so were gonna do it

to much spin for and against .

and you wonder why the rest of the world cant decide , and have doubts .

Bush had to convince the US population , he appealed to what fires them up .

It`s the cowboy way ...

forgot the rest of the world was watching .

your going to think I`m anti US for saying such things , isnt so ....

what has been acheived ?

nothhing wrong with Islam being at the centre of a new democracy ... if the democracy chooses it . it`s when something is imposed democracy becomes errrrrr not

I dont know , who does , no oil in somalia huh

mogadeshu ?

I honestly just dont understand

Rwanda ?

Is it my fault for not comprehending , how does one honest , sane , missinformed , individual form a clear view of any of this .

you bankroll Israel , two of there spys were just caught trying to obtain for use NZ passports .... they pled guilty , good guys huh , since when is NZ fraud for the use of honest governments .... complex huh

you have the answers , I dont , I`m sure I`ll get the facts handed to me .

All I can say is I dont know .

who can honestly say they do ?
Guest

Post by Guest »

Where's the provision for "freedom of religion" we have and hold so dear HERE?
it’s not America…they hold different values dear…let them…when you don’t they kill your people. Other nations have a right to self government.
Nothing happens in Iraq unless we say so
it’s not the 52nd state is it….what gives you the right….your army? The world was a better place when their was more than one super power.

Torrents of abuse on the USA "imposing" its views on the world.
And torrents of abuse over our "force feeding" "our values and relgion" down the throats of Musliums.

You can't win.
domination and indoctrination never works, nor does assimilation, either leave the other nations free to self govern…or commit genocide…other peoples will not accept your will…irreguardless of the might you impose.
but sometimes the american ideal isn't sustainable.
amen Ian…and why should it be in other nations.


A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam... may be enacted during the transitional period.
not a value I would embrace but I would propose a democratic nation would reflect the values of it’s majority…whats wrong with this?
it does guarantee freedom of religion
Nor does it guarantee the right to bear arms…it’s not the American constitution it’s their country and their rules. But from what I gather on the tube they already seized the right to bear arms.

Who declared the USA police men of the earth and why are they the only ones who are allowed weapons of mass destruction…last time I checked your the only nation to ever use them.

As long as one nation is willing to disreguard the soverienty of a nation.... another people will be willing to die for nthe cause.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther

North Carolina is quite the diverse state. It's worth mentioning that research triangle in NC has two of the best universities in the country, as well as lowly UNC. ;) But seriously, you don't get more cosmopolitan than that area. Duke's one of the top universities in the world in a number of different disciplines. And Charlotte has become banking capital of the country. I know - all the banks left Richmond and went down there. You don't become a state like that by harboring rednecks.

And we all know that Edwards was a South Carolina import... ;)

There are A-holes everywhere in the world. We all know what happened when they tried busing in New England. Somehow it was all a "Southern Man" thing until it happend in Boston. In the end, we find all kinds of people wherever you go.

I am sorry those fools came up from NC, Panther. By no means am I implying that they represented the average citizen in the state. And yes, I agree with you. I'd rather these idiots speak their minds so I know who they are and where they are.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

P, I'm too thick to get your reply; all my post did was sarcastically refute the idea that Christians are disenfranchised in the USA. There's nothing about it that suggests I want to live anywhere else or that I hold some model above the "american ideal" I mentioned. Like they said when they were debating the Constitution, it ain't perfect, but it's the best.
--Ian
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