No Child Left Behind & Privacy for Minors

[Dana Sheets]

Washington Post Magazine
August 8th 2004
page 26

The No Child Left Behind Act, landmark education reform signed by Presient Bush in 2002, requires public high schools to provide military recruiters with lists of students' names and phone numbers unless parents specifically request that their information be withheld.

So the names, addresses, and phone numbers of public school children are being handed without their or their parent's consent to four different recruiting offices. How the hell did this happen?

I'll be writing my representatives and senators this week. I cannot fathom how this came to pass. And the inequity is alarming - students in private school (families that can pay for their children to be in private school) will not have their privacy invaded.

I'm simply disgusted.

[IJ]

There's a curious problem with lawmakers which is that they can't resist stuffing unrelated garbage into bills to force them thru when they would fail on their own merits. There's a separate issue with our current president in that he likes to create legislation with endearing titles ("clean air act," "patriot act," "no child left behind,") that actually contain lots of little surprises that run counter to the spirit of the title.

That said, if being contacted by the military is SO awful (I survived a half dozen phone calls from recruiters who wouldn't take no for an answer which are hardly worth recalling in the slew of phony emails, junk mailings, and dinnertimed telemarketing calls) it would seem to me that the biggest problem is something that needs to be fixed in the military rather than in their recruiting methods. Is it that the kids are called or the disparity that's annoying you most?

[Panther]

I agree Dana... This has no place in any legislation. If they want a draft, let them put it on the table for the citizenry to know and vote on.

There's a curious problem with lawmakers which is that they can't resist stuffing unrelated garbage into bills to force them thru when they would fail on their own merits. There's a separate issue with our current president in that he likes to create legislation with endearing titles ("clean air act," "patriot act," "no child left behind,") that actually contain lots of little surprises that run counter to the spirit of the title.

True... despicable... disgusting... and... it's been done by every Congress and Administration as long as I've been watching politricks. In other words... Standard Operational Procedure. "Patriot Act" has nothing to do with patriotism and is better titled the "bye-bye fourth and fifth amendments" act, "Campaign Finance Reform" that should have been called the "incumbent protection act" or the "forget the first amendment within 90 days of an election" act, "Assault Weapons ban" that's really the "these are the ones we can get away with banning because people don't know the difference and we'll just lie and confuse them" act, "Paperwork reduction" act that added more paperwork, forms and documents... the list goes on and on. And it goes across the Demopublican and Republicrat boundaries!

I used to think that if only the American people knew what was being passed, it could/would be stopped. Then I grew up and realized that politicians are the ones Shakespeare was really talking about!

[Ted Dinwiddie]

In Virginia, we have the SOL tests (Standards Of Learning). But only for public schools, not private and not home schooled.

[Panther]

I wouldn't worry about homeschoolers too much. They traditionally score well above the average when tested against their "professionally" taught peers.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

I agree with you Panther. I just want to see the standards of accreditation fully applied.

[Panther]

I understand.

So... I'll open this can of worms and see what smells...

Why should government be in the business of educating children? If the purpose is to impart an education to help them in the world, then they've failed... and miserably so. Children aren't being educated, they're being indoctrinated and that's the only area that the government has been successful. Why should there be any government regulation on "accreditation"? Why not let people apply to Universities by demonstrating their knowledge, their ability to learn and their desire to learn and then let the University approve or deny the applicant.

This could be a good topic of discussion. Perhaps someone would like to start a thread on it.

[Dana Sheets]

Because if it wasn't free then only those who could afford to pay would have their kids in school.

Until Exxon, Microsoft, or Walmart decides to pay for education in America then the US government is the only will to foot the bill.

[Panther]

But history doesn't agree with that. There was education before government got involved and there is education without government now. The majority of homeschooled children do not come from well-to-do families. It appears that the only people that the laws make go to school are the ones that don't want to be there anyway. And I completely disagree with the premise that it's "free". Do you pay property taxes? Government indoctrination centers are NOT free. And why should those who don't have children be forced to subsidize those who do? Why can't a community chose to NOT have a school system and NOT provide that, then reduce the property taxes allowing those with children to group together and hire some teachers, rent a facility, and have their children educated in a manner that they chose? That was the way it was done prior to the government getting involved... and more often than not, those without children were more than happy to help in those cases. And if someone didn't wish to go to school, they answered to their parents and/or found out the cost of their ignorance. If like-minded people want to get-together now, provide a facility, hire or otherwise provide for teachers, chose a curriculum that taught such important things as math, reading/writing, sciences and left the indoctrination out of it, they'd be quickly shutdown. This is one of the biggest reasons that some have against home-schooling... that allows the parents to have control over their childrens' education and government, the NEA, and the teachers' unions just don't like that. Why haven't home schools been shutdown? In many places they have been... or been made to conform to the social/political indoctrination guidelines of the special interests, but in other places they haven't been shutdown because they consistently perform at or above the level of government indoctrinated and mis-educated students in areas that aren't "subjective". If it was truly about education, then home-schoolers would be able to reduce their property tax burden equivalent to the amount that is conscripted for the public school per pupil. Some places do give a tax break to home schoolers, but it is pennys on the dollar. Home schooling doesn't save any money for those who do it, but it saves the minds of their children.

(your turn)

[Ted Dinwiddie]

I am not wealthy enough for private school and not patient enough for home schooling in the pure sense, but I think all parents are home schoolers. It is our job to teach ideals, principles, morals, manners, et al. We are the filters and the interpreters of the world for our children. We are the tutors when the homework is not understood. We are the guides through the interpersonal maze of school. The purely home-schooled kids I know personaly (an admittedly irrelevant anecdotal data set) are socially and emotionally WAY behind my kids. Maybe our kids grow up too fast these days, but it's a competetive world and some these sheltered youngsters have a very rude awakening ahead of them. I also know this is not true of all private and home schooled kids, but it is true for many.

I believe a society should take responsibility for the education of its children. Where the public education system has fallen way behind is the "feel-good" BS and failure to demonstrate competence and required levels of performance. This is the thought behind the SOLs here in Virginia. I just feel that those that choose to isolate their kids from the full spectrum of our society should prove that they meet the same standards that the unwashed masses have to meet. If the standards are incorrect then the people in charge of the standards (the citizens) should change them. Without good public education serving as a "melting pot" we are doomed to economic, social, and cultural stratification and balkanization. These phenomena occur anyway, but there must be a time in our development when it is minimized.

I went to a large, public high school and a small, private college. Many of the kids I went to college with were educated in very exclusive private high schools. The ignorance and intolerence and prejudice of some of these people shocked me. Several had never had any personal contact with a Black-American that was not domestic help. This small college wasn't helping any on that front, incidently.

As the United States of America continues to grow and diversify the challenge of a good education and interaction of all cultures will determine our long-term viability.

[Dana Sheets]

Panther,

Which parts of the indoctrination bit do you object to?

Some of my important indoctrination lessons in school were:

share, don't hit/hurt people, if you do wrong there are consequences, if you want something - ask for it & work for it, love your country, fight for freedom and democracy, stand up for yourself, have racial, social, and religious tolerance, think critically, question constantly.

You seem to be saying there's some kind of insidious curriculum out there turning young Americans into mindless husks of humans. I'd like to know what you think they're being taught.

And nothing is free. Of course. But you're talking about a completely different era and a time when teaching involved books and paper and the three Rs. Education today involves computers, genetics, calculus, organic chemistry and the like at higher levels.

And how is a single mother supposed to survive in the happy little utopia you painted of enlightened, active, like minded people grabbing hands and building a competent education systems together? She's working 40+ hours a week without benefits, commuting 2+ hours a day and you're saying that giving her a break in her property taxes is going to allow her to pay for her kids to be in the kind of school you're talking about?

[Panther]

The purely home-schooled kids I know personaly (an admittedly irrelevant anecdotal data set) are socially and emotionally WAY behind my kids. Maybe our kids grow up too fast these days, but it's a competetive world and some these sheltered youngsters have a very rude awakening ahead of them. I also know this is not true of all private and home schooled kids, but it is true for many.

The home-schooled kids I know (also admittedly a purely anecdotal and just as irrelevant data set ) are very socially and emotionally active and interactive. Most of them still compete on local sports teams and extra-curricular activities and friends that encompass a wide variety of interests.

I believe a society should take responsibility for the education of its children.

Why? Perhaps I don't want my kids exposed to the garbage and crap being "taught" to them and pushed on them without having it presented in a proper context. I'm not saying that I believe my kids should be sheltered from the world, just that they should be shown the truth about the world based on a good set of moral values... a set of moral values that I believe "society" lacks. I don't want any "village" educating my kids based on the morals and beliefs of anyone who wants to play word-games with the definition of "is" or claim that oral sex isn't really sex. And the proof of that damage is overwhelming.

Where the public education system has fallen way behind is the "feel-good" BS and failure to demonstrate competence and required levels of performance.

We agree completely as far as this statement goes. I just happen to think its worse than some others do.

I just feel that those that choose to isolate their kids from the full spectrum of our society should prove that they meet the same standards that the unwashed masses have to meet. If the standards are incorrect then the people in charge of the standards (the citizens) should change them.

The problem is two-fold. First, there is a lot of disagreement as to what the standards should be. Second, it simply isn't controlled by the citizenry, it's controlled by the special interests wishing to push their agenda on the youth of the nation... and they've been very successful for far too long IMNSHO.

Without good public education serving as a "melting pot" we are doomed to economic, social, and cultural stratification and balkanization. These phenomena occur anyway, but there must be a time in our development when it is minimized.

I went to a large, public high school and a small, private college. Many of the kids I went to college with were educated in very exclusive private high schools. The ignorance and intolerence and prejudice of some of these people shocked me. Several had never had any personal contact with a Black-American that was not domestic help. This small college wasn't helping any on that front, incidently.

As the United States of America continues to grow and diversify the challenge of a good education and interaction of all cultures will determine our long-term viability.

Sounds good, but the basic premise is self-contradictory. Are we a "melting pot" or are we supposed to celebrate "diversity"? It appears that part of the problem is that some are supposed to be allowed their "diversity" while others are supposed to conform to the PC BS... Which is it and why should the rules be different for different groups?

[Panther]

Which parts of the indoctrination bit do you object to?

So many things, so little space...

For starters, how about the lessons of "subjective morality". Instead of teaching kids who are caught cheating that cheating is wrong, they get asked "how did you feel when you cheated?" so it won't hurt their self-esteem. Then there's the whole "diversity & tolerance" lessons being taught. While I think it is correct that kids learn about different beliefs and lifestyles, I disagree with blanketly telling them that everything is just fine for everyone to do. It isn't and it's wrong to teach that. I disagree with teaching grade school children about adult sex acts... And before I get slammed, it happened in Massachusetts and it was largely covered up by the groups that were pushing it. The rewritting of history and social science curriculums to make the U.S. out to be an evil imperialistic empire bent on the distruction of the rest of the world. Spending time teaching a PC curriculum that denegrates the Founders of this country and entire segments of the population while decrying the "lack of tolerance"... It is completely hypocritical to claim that we need more tolerance while reducing tolerance... to claim that we need more diversity while enforcing strict complience out of anyone who doesn't tow the line. Part of the problem IS the whole "diversity" education. So... I have a cultural history that includes a number of nations (I'm your basic "mutt"), but I don't make any big deal to people about being an "XYZZY-American". The minute that the prefix is deemed more important we start having problems. While someone's heritage is important to them as mine is important to me, making it the over-riding factor in how they are treated defeats the concept of what we should be striving for. Rather than celebrating the diversity, we should focus on the over-riding importance of the fact that we're all Americans. But that's been lost... intentionally.

Some of my important indoctrination lessons in school were:

share, don't hit/hurt people, if you do wrong there are consequences, if you want something - ask for it & work for it, love your country, fight for freedom and democracy, stand up for yourself, have racial, social, and religious tolerance, think critically, question constantly.

Many of the folks who post here went to school at a time when those were part of the things that were taught at school and at home. Unfortunately, that just isn't the norm any more.

You seem to be saying there's some kind of insidious curriculum out there turning young Americans into mindless husks of humans. I'd like to know what you think they're being taught.

From my interactions with a lot of school kids, it sure isn't the old "three Rs"! It's the PC, feel-good BS previously mentioned.

And nothing is free. Of course. But you're talking about a completely different era and a time when teaching involved books and paper and the three Rs. Education today involves computers, genetics, calculus, organic chemistry and the like at higher levels.

I know a woman, "certified teacher" , (a relative) who was lamenting the fact the other day that her local school system has removed the computers from her 2-4th grade classrooms. What she didn't mention, until it was pointed out by others involved with the situation, was that the reason the computers were removed was because the kids weren't learning! These grade-schoolers were failing the standard tests for spelling, grammar, math, writing, AND reading! The "teacher" in question claimed to be a "computer education expert", but she called for help because her computer had been turned off and she didn't know how to turn it on, and THEN she didn't know how to start the expensive "education" SW that was normally left running on the computers! Yet she was lamenting... no, complaining that the computers were removed from their classrooms and blamed it on "budget cuts by the conservatives" (a sentiment that she imparted to these grade-school children... tell me that isn't indoctrination... and which is also wrong, because the computers and SW were already there...) Her question to the group of us she was complaining to was, "How am I going to teach the chiiiiildren?" How about on the chalkboard, with a textbook, and pencils and paper! Such a novel concept! Then she got upset because she hadn't been provided with a "teacher's text"! (We're talking about grade school fercryinoutloud! You need a "teacher's text" to teach second through fourth graders how to read, write and speak properly?!?!? )

And how is a single mother supposed to survive in the happy little utopia you painted of enlightened, active, like minded people grabbing hands and building a competent education systems together? She's working 40+ hours a week without benefits, commuting 2+ hours a day and you're saying that giving her a break in her property taxes is going to allow her to pay for her kids to be in the kind of school you're talking about?

Nope... In fact, she probably pays rent and isn't directly responsible for the property taxes on the building. And I seriously doubt that the landlord would pass on the property tax savings. I don't think that we should let anyone who is trying to work hard and needs a little help "hang out to dry". That isn't my position, but I'm trying to toss out different options, points-of-view, and keep the discussion going. There are lots of different things to consider...