Michael Moore USA Today press pass

[RACastanet]

Beware... the Panther is watching!

"Then again, what is it you're calling a financial failure? Is being poor sufficient or do you actually have to go on welfare of some kind?"

Poor is a relative condition. When I was young, we had an outhouse, and we did not have hot running water until I was about 10. However, we had a TV, old car, and were all happy. Since I grew up in an old coal town surrounded by similar types of families, I had no idea we were 'very low' middle class . In fact, some were jealous because we had a TV and car. No food stamps, no welfare support, no medical benefits, but always well fed, and plenty of clothes - frequently from older cousins. No, not poor.

By todays standards, yes, we would have been considered impoverished. No VCRs. no color TV, no cable, no fancy basketball shoes, no AC, no cell phone, no Game Boy. My dad was not a financial failure because he worked hard, usually 7 days a week, and saved every penny he could.

"Do you really think everyone can be an exceptional person, or would you consider people who are not smart or talented irrelevant?"

Everyone can be exceptional in their own way. Academically, I am not in the same league as Bill G. I'm exceptional in my own way. What do I expect? This is a quote but cannot remember the source - to paraphrase - "Whatever you do, do it best you can. If you sweep floors, be remembered as the best damn floor sweeper there ever was."

Not everyone can be the chief. There needs to be a lot of Indians. Be a good Indian with no regrets. If I had made a carrer in the Marine Corps, I probably would not have been a general officer. I most likely would have been a Chief Warrant Officer - still an officer of Marines, but in the role of a technical expert.

Because of misguided social safety nets, too many thousands of people would rather sit around, collect unearned social benefits, and whine rather than get a job sweeping floors at minimum wage. Unless of course the goal is to be the best whiner anyone will ever meet. Too many like that.

"Am I right that you appreciate the aesthetic of the strong being able to have their way with the weak?

This discussion was about capitalism, not individuals. However, I am all for building skills to equalize things. Sam Colt made everyone equal over 100 years ago when he invented the practical and reliable revolver. I am a fan of concealed carry of handguns because a 90 pound weakling can defend against a 250 predator criminal.

"The problem is that producing goods is basically synonymous with producing trash."

"Not everything that a person buys is trash."

Hmmm.... Flip/flop. Is this John Kerry?

"This is a perfect example of why I don't think might makes right. Microsoft's products are very bad. Their operating system is so technically awful it's unbelievable."

Well, this is easy. Vote with your dollars. Are you using an Apple computer? unix? Linux? If you have a Microsoft OS the you are part of the problem.

"Just to quickly counteract the excuses bit, what about people who are injured, chronically ill or otherwise happen across some mishap of debilitating nature? Surely you don't think you would've gotten where you are now if you'd been brain-damaged in the course of your work?"

I will admit that a minimum safety net should exist for the rare exceptions that truly cannot manage o their own. Bad things happen. However, way too many people are on the public dole. I'm not brain damaged but am nerve damaged. I just put up with it.

More later.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Panther

I agree that the discussion is becoming one of semantics. But if you read good books on philosophy, you realize that one can have great debates over what others consider "semantics."

This "contributing to the problem" issue is a good one. Justin says it's like being the skinny guy on the elevator with too much weight. Somehow the skinny guy is contributing to the problem of too much weight.

Maybe...

Or maybe the fair thing to do is to ask the person who weighs the most to step out. That way the most people benefit, no? And those contributing an unfair share to "the problem" pay the penalty, no? We are assuming of course that the problem wouldn't be there if everyone weighed a reasonable amount.

The marketplace actually has a solution to that problem. If you are on an airplane and you take up too much space due to morbid obesity, the airline can - and sometimes does - charge you for 2 seats.

Does my bum look big in this Boeing?

Fair is fair, no? I'm all for economic incentive solutions to these kinds of problems. And I certainly am NOT in favor of someone getting a pass (a suburbanite SUV driver) for purchasing a guzzling vehicle. That's a perverse incentive, and not one that the lawmakers who created the CAFE restrictions intended.

You are the exception to this, Panther. You truly need a truck where you live. But that's no pantywaisted SUV you are buying, I'm sure.

- Bill

[mikemurphy]

Bill,

You are quite the politician aren't you.


<<The issue isn't whether we use resources or not, Mike. To suggest that we are to "blame" or it is a "problem" to use resources is patently absurd. You say I use resources, so therefore I am just as bad as everyone else.

No, no, no! >

You can't have it both ways here. If you are saying that the suvs are a problem because they are wasteful (which I believe is what you are saying), I'm saying you are wrong in the way that the problem IS the petroleum. If the vehicle is causing pollution and poisons in the air, then it is ALL cars, not just those pushing a little more into the environment.

<<The issue is the sustainable use of resources.>>

You see, to me I'm a lot more simple than that. Burning petroluem is a problem. We need another solution or it won't matter what car your wife has. Maybe not in your generation, but sooner or later someone is going to have do something, but in the meantime, WE are all part of the problem and we cannot have a "holier than thou attitude." (This was not meant as an insult to anyone....Panther).

<< It's like managing your money. Some people manage to take a normal salary, live a decent lifestyle, send their kids to college, and have money left over for retirement. They even can absorb a financial bump in the road (or two). Meanwhile most of the world pi$$es their paychecks away as soon as they get them, live constantly in debt (which lowers their standard of living), and want government to bail them out when things go bad or when they retire with no nestegg. >>


Well now you are speaking of quantity over quality. I don't put myself in that place to judge people on how they live their lives. We spend such a short time on this planet in comparison to many things and I don't begrudge anyone for doing what they want with their money. If they are happy, then so be it. I've seen many people scrimp and save for a lifetime, only to be lonely and bitter when they retire. Who's right?


<<Our first Americans were examples of sustainable use of natural resources. They hunted, they fished, and they harvested, and yet there was so much game in the midwest that the skies sometimes would be blackened by flocks of birds, and the plains were covered with animals in numbers we can't even fathom today.>>

And then came technology and the "need for greed." Must of all been republicans.

<<Then came the Europeans (the Anglo Saxons, to be specific). They would farm a plot of land until it wouldn't yield any more cotton and corn. Then they would move on. Again, and again, and again. The European migration west was less about adventure and more about not knowing how to make do with what you have.>>

I would have to disagree with you here. The migrations of the 1800s were not as you would like to have us believe. Migrations, say after the Civil War were due to economics. Blacks (i.e. Exodusters) moving West to escape the thraldom of sharecropping and such. Plus, the government was offering huge tracts of land (i.e. Homestead Act, etc) for people to settle. This was hard to say no to whether you were already in America or coming from Europe. People weren't in the East getting board and running out West for something better to do. The growth of the railroad (i.e. technology) made this easier.


<<As for game, well the predators were "inconvenient" so they were eliminated. Roaming game were plentiful, so they shot them for sport from train cars and left the carcasses.>>

I won't argue this, but is the guy who shot 10 buffalo any more guilty then the guy who shot 2?

<<They put up fences which stopped the normal migration. Pretty soon, the whole ecosystem was out of whack. Buffalo almost became extinct. Deer need to be culled by humans because their natural predators were eliminated. And then there was the dust bowl era.>>

The dust bowl had a lot more to due than missing buffalo and coyote.


<<Undaunted Courage:
Meriwether Lewis Thomas Jefferson and the Opening of the American West
by Steven Ambrose >>

Although I love Steven Ambrose, he gets on a soapbox sometimes, but he's a great read.


<<So - for example - don't call my friend Mr. Castanet "rich" (as opposed to Rich) as if it were a pejorative. He worked hard. He saved. He fixed his own stuff. He invested. He retired young. Now he's having the time of his life. His kids are through college, He has half a dozen cars around the house. His house is paid for. Good for him. He spent wisely. He engaged in sustainable consumption. And now he's in great shape. >>

I'm happy that Rich is doing well and is extremely satisfied with the way his life has turned out, however, would you like him less if he lived in a shelter with no money and was little over weight? And more importantly, what if he liked living in the shelter and looking the way he did? Who's more successful? I'm not that kind of judge.


<<This is NOT the same as the guy down the street who is saddled in debt and will go bankrupt if he gets layed off or has a bad medical bill. >>

Yes it is Bill, because it has to do with the quality of the person, not the stats sheet.

<<Do NOT compare me to the guy down the street who uses 10 times as much energy (literally) to heat his home.>>

Why Bill, don't you ever leave the gas on a little too high sometimes? Keep open a window by mistake? Waste is waste.

<<Do NOT compare me to the guys down the street who use 5 times as much gasoline because everyone drives solo, and drives SUVs. >>

I will compare you because you USE gasoline in your car and I'm happy for the guy who is happy with his suv.

<<Do NOT compare me to the guys who are NOT working hard to purchase a next vehicle that'll have multiple options for energy (E85 or biodiesel or hybrid or some combination thereof). >>

There is an easy solution to that. Stop producing gasoline cars and force the industry to make the alternative. BUT NO, that won't happen, and you know why? Because the ficticious oil lobby and the auto makers would never allow it to happen.


<<And any financial advisor will tell you that it's the little things that make big differences down the road. Save a dollar today and it's worth 3 to 10 dollars a decade from now.>>

Let's see, One dollar in the 1980s (triple the deficit and increase the cost of living...especially here in New England) and it's worth $10 today? But how much does it buy compared to back then?

<<Borrow a dollar on a credit card today, and you've got quite a debt a decade later. Do enough "little" things right, and it isn't chump change any more.>>

So (to be a little sarcasitc here), spend 2 - 5 Billion per month on a war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and then decrease taxes. I don't have to be a good economist here, but I would say we are deficit spending again. Is that the same as your credit card example?

<<Never mind the fact that SUVs kill their occumpants (via rollovers) and anyone they run into... Like the Yankees, there's lots of reasons to hate 'em.>>

And small cars crumble when they are hit. It's not the car that is dangerous, but the people who drive them. Let's regulate them for a while.

<<As for your "speaking from the gut", well you are indeed doing so. Pay close attention to the language, Mike. Perhaps you need some finance and accounting classes to appreciate the concepts here. (I picked them up from the school of hard knocks).>>

Personally, I'm not the best with economics (A- in college), but to me it's a simple matter for us little guys. You can't spend what you don't have and you need money to make money. How's that for a start. But economics is a hard science. It doesn't take into account the person. Making the profit as Panther alludes to, that's what it is all about, and it sounds like from your examples, that you think so as well. If you make it financially, then you are a good soldier, but if you become a burdon on society, then we should just dump you on the side of the road with all of society's blame. I don't go for that way of thinking.

mike

Disclaimer:

Anyway, gotta run to class. This post, although direct and sarcastic in part was in no way meant to be demeaning or disrespectful to my friend Bill Sensei.

[Valkenar]

Because of misguided social safety nets, too many thousands of people would rather sit around, collect unearned social benefits, and whine rather than get a job sweeping floors at minimum wage. Unless of course the goal is to be the best whiner anyone will ever meet. Too many like that.

All right, if that's sufficient to rise above a disdainful level then that makes sense to me, at least. Often I've read words of those in a position of wealth that refer to a minimum wage sweeping job as a financial failure. I'll agree that just about anybody can get a minimal wage job like that. I would still have pity for people who don't manage to get one, but at least I understand better what you're talking about.

"Am I right that you appreciate the aesthetic of the strong being able to have their way with the weak?

This discussion was about capitalism, not individuals

Right, and that's how I meant it... For example, do you like the idea that third world nations often have their natural resources, such as oil and natural gas sold at exceedingly low prices whereupon the corporations that bought them make a huge profit?

To me, it's an example of the strong, the rich corporations and their countries, keeping the weak, the poorer countries without significant industrialization, poor by plundering their resources before they come to understand or be able to capitalize on the resources themselves. Then the weaker country has to struggle all that much harder to catch up because of foreign claims on their resources.

How do you feel about a company like Microsoft leveraging their operating system dominance to dominate other areas of software? To me this is a strong company keeping weak companies out of the market by sheer force.

Or what about patent submarining and others forms of patent barratry?

Those are things that come to mind when I hear the phrase "predatory capitalism"

"The problem is that producing goods is basically synonymous with producing trash."

"Not everything that a person buys is trash."

Hmmm.... Flip/flop. Is this John Kerry?

A large proportion of the things you can buy in a store are trash to begin with, and almost everything ends up as trash eventually. If you think the word synonymous was a bad choice, then pick another if you like. Possibly inseperable.

Since this was brought up in the context of a tremendous energy use being converted into goods as a reason it's not being pissed away, I was pointing out that there's a significant percentage of that production that is garbage, and thus pissed away anyhow.

Well, this is easy. Vote with your dollars. Are you using an Apple computer? unix? Linux? If you have a Microsoft OS the you are part of the problem.

I can vote with my dollars all day long, and I do run linux. I have never payed for a microsoft operating system. But that won't change the fact that most people don't even know the issues exist because the company put a man in a butterfly suit and distracted them. I have no problem at all with people making an informed decision to go with Microsoft despite the alternatives. What I don't like is that they beat, for example OS/2 primarily with marketting hype.

However, way too many people are on the public dole. I'm not brain damaged but am nerve damaged. I just put up with it.

Well I have nerve damage too as a matter of fact and have managed to remain employed thus far. By no means am I saying that if someone gets a paper cut then they should be given 4 months paid leave by the government.

I do think, however, that while it shouldn't be illegal, there's something distasteful about a ceo who makes millions every year cutting jobs to eke out just a bit more profit. Yes, I realize that they're obliged to do all they can to make a profit for the shareholders and so forth, but I also think that a bit less greed would be a good thing. The company can make just as much of a profit paying the CEO $18M and retaining 80 people who produce absolutely nothing (which would be rather strange) as they can paying the CEO $20M and laying those people off. I find the first situation superior, but that, among other things, is why I'll never be that CEO. I just don't have the stomach for inflicting misery on other people for my own benefit.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

I'm satisfied that:

1) I understand how you think

2) I won't convince you otherwise on some things, which is fine, and

3) We think differently about a lot of things.

I'm also satisfied we want the same end game, but I see you wanting to force a solution one way, and me another. Fine...

BTW, I do not disparage others for ANY life style. I was at my happiest when making $400 a month as a grad student while getting 3 to 5 hours of sleep a night. Happiness can be defined in many ways. In my case, I knew I was around some of the best people a human could find, and that I was working for my own dream. What more could a person ask for?

All heck breaks loose here when we all face the fact that petroleum is ending, and something needs to be done about it. We agree up to that point, and then nobody agrees it seems on how to address the problem.

I suppose that's why we have elections.

And you can disagree with me all you want, Mike. I know where your heart is.

- Bill

[benzocaine]

I've been thinking about this thread on and off quite a bit for the past couple of days.

I wish to convey that I truly appreciate the position people hold about certain groups of people who whine. In fact I echo your sentiments on a lot you say. Those who live in yesteryear and refuse to even try for something better do not have my sympathy. Those who manipulate the system to live off government programs/my tax dollar do not have my sympathy. Union workers who drag their feet at work and get laid off for months at a time while collecting unemployemnt.. just in time for a new job.. who threaten to strike if they don't get paid a huge sum of money to do something like bag groceries, or whatever (while harassing 'scabs' who cross the picket line) who have found their job gone forever, do not have my sympathy. They are a big part of their own job's demise.

It's the hardworking American systems engineer who had to train his foreighn replacement I feel for (can you imagine!!??) It's the person from southside Virginia who saw the textile job go overseas I feel for. It's the Enron employee who lost her pension I feel for. I'm sure everyone else feels their pain as well.

For those who believe that everything will pan out for the best, let me say I hope you are right. Many will argue that having a product made in another country allows the cost to be cheaper. To them I ask what good are cheap products if noone has a job to buy them?

[RACastanet]

"To them I ask what good are cheap products if noone has a job to buy them?"

I submit to you that anyone who wants to work can find a job! Look at the jobs section in your paper. It is full of opportunities. The jobs section never went away, even during the worst of the recession. You may not find exactly what you want to do (CEO of a Fortune 500 company perhaps), but there will be a job.

The unemployment rate in your Roanoke area is less than 3%. That is incredible. It never went over 5%. 5% has been considered 'full employment' by economists for decades. Now, look at southwest or southside Virginia. The rate is well over 10%. The unemployed textile workers are about an hours drive away from an area with unfilled jobs. What is their problem? It is easier to whine than drive up to Roanoke I guess.

Now, for years, the coalfields of SW VA have been losing jobs. Unemployment has approached 15%. Now, coal is coming back big time, and the coal companies cannot find workers. These are dangerous but high paying jobs. What is the problen now? I was a coal miner many years ago, and I know it is not a fun thing to be. But, the jobs are there and the pay is good. Could it be they would rather collect government benefits and whine instead of work? I think so. Plus, they are not that far from the Roanoke area either.

In the Richmond area, the overall rate is under 4%. However, in the cities of Richmond it is double that, and in Petersburg it is around 10%. Yet, the area has so many jobs available there is a large and growing hispanic (mostly Mexican) community drawn here by the availability of jobs. Yes, they are mostly manual labor, but what is wrong with that? Oh yes, it is easier to whine while waiting for that highly paid executive job to come by.


Last summer my son, between his junior and senior years at college (U of Radford), somehow he became an entrepreneur of sorts. Through a friend he found out that Home Depot paid $10 an hour to assemble all of that stuff you see on the floor... lawn mowers, grills, whatever. He could work all he wanted to and made thousands of dollars. I gave him a box of tools and bought him a battery powered drill and off he went! He is back at school and we keep getting calls here to come over and build stuff! I might jump in there for the heck of it. Now that the assault weapon ban is expiring I need a few extra $$ to run out and buy an assualt weapon next week!

Nope, no excuse to be unemployed. Textiles are gone. Big steel is gone. Get over it. Move to where the work is and get on with life. With rare exception, anyone who is not working does not want to.

Rich

[Panther]

Bill,

You are quite the politician aren't you.

ALL RIGHT!! I've had quite enough!!!

This is without a doubt THE biggest insult I've ever seen thrown at someone on this forum and I just will NOT stand for it!!!

Disclaimer:

Anyway, gotta run to class. This post, although direct and sarcastic in part was in no way meant to be demeaning or disrespectful to my friend Bill Sensei.

Oh... well... in that case... ahem.... ummmmm... I mean, If Bill is willing to let it slide, I guess I will too...

[Bill Glasheen]

Good one, Panther.

SERIOUSLY speaking...

FLORIDA NEEDS CONTRACTORS AND REPAIR PEOPLE.

There are a lot of needy people in Florida with insurance checks in their hands, and nobody to help them put a roof over their heads. And more storms are coming!

If you get hungry enough, the ambitious will find a way to make a living. My Irish and Lithuanian ancestors traveled halfway around the world to fight someone else's war and work in coal mines, respectively. It put food on the table, and allowed them to carry on for many generations.

Ben, I don't think everything will be OK for everyone. And I have to tell you that when I was inbetween jobs, the "Everything will work out for the better" line (and all variations on that theme) rang very hollow. It didn't make me feel any better.

I feel the pain of the unemployed and the displaced.

The only thing that made me feel better was getting off my butt and doing something.

And the smart thing to do is to keep yourself trained and well connected so that you have options when/if the unfortunate happens. As I always say, luck is preparation and opportunity.

- Bill

[ljr]

Good one, Panther.

SERIOUSLY speaking...

FLORIDA NEEDS CONTRACTORS AND REPAIR PEOPLE.

There are a lot of needy people in Florida with insurance checks in their hands, and nobody to help them put a roof over their heads. And more storms are coming!

That is fine, just don't plan on charging a premium on you services....
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/17/charl ... g.charges/

Got to love how the republican gov allows market forces to work!

ljr

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh and if Massachusettes were in the same condition, I suppose the saintly citizens there would behave like little angels, eh?



Sorry, I don't buy it (no pun intended). This is just human nature. No matter what party is in power, some folks will screw their fellow man when given the chance.

The only thing that changes is the modus operendum.

- Bill