Say it ain't so, Michael!

This is Dave Young's Forum.
Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!
Post Reply
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Say it ain't so, Michael!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I am shocked...shocked I tell you! This can't be true. How could anyone accuse such a nice boy of being naughty?
The GOP said it asked the prosecutors to charge Moore, a John Kerry supporter, with violating Michigan's election law, which prohibits a person from contracting with another for something of value in exchange for agreeing to vote.
- Republicans Accuse Moore of Vote Bribery

- Bill
Valkenar
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Somerville, ma.

Re: Say it ain't so, Michael!

Post by Valkenar »

Bill Glasheen wrote:I am shocked...shocked I tell you! This can't be true. How could anyone accuse such a nice boy of being naughty?
I'm not going to defend Moore's practices in general. But if anyone really thinks that giving out "underwear, potato chips and Ramen noodles" to slackers is really a serious infraction, then I think they're taking him more than a little too seriously. It's a joke. Possibly in poor taste, possibly not funny. And sure, technically illegal in Michigan. But deserving of prosecution? Naw.

I'm not sure what the proper analogy is, but If Ann Coultier were to give out Sharper Image catalogs and high-capacity money clips to yuppies in exchange for a promise to go vote, I wouldn't have a problem with that either.
cxt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Post by cxt »

Valkenar

The problem is that one mans "no problem" is anothers "vote buying."

Its a question of where to draw the line--and you'll never get folks to agree to exactly where the line should be drawn.

Would you feel the same about someone buying drinks for votes?

How about a gift worth less than $5? or how about $100?


Chris Thomas
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Agreed.

Being strict on matters like these is important, Justin. As an example, I am often given the opportunity to go to baseball games, get movie tickets, and eat free goodies because my wife is a medical provider and the drug companies want her to prescribe their products. Problem is: 1) I have a problem with it since I have the data which show how this activity drives medical costs, and 2) I work for various health concerns where holding costs down and improving quality is important. Because I didn't even want the APPEARANCE of impropriety, I never accepted any of the invitations. My wife went out to the games and plays without me. I would not eat the goodies.

And then a funny thing happened. The state passed a law making my ethical practices THE LAW. They understand the implied coersion in the "freebies." These folks wouldn't do what they do if they didn't influence behavior and choices.

Once when I was at a voting precinct, a former girlfriend asked me what I though of a candidate. You know what? The poll workers were all over me like white on rice. They would not even let me open my mouth.

That's the way it should be. This is black and white in my book. Debate is good, but individual choice is personal and sacred.

You know I am a registered Republicrat? You know I don't have a car? You want to offer me a courtesy ride to the polls? Fine. That is facilitation w/o coersion.

- Bill
Valkenar
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Somerville, ma.

Post by Valkenar »

cxt wrote:Valkenar

The problem is that one mans "no problem" is anothers "vote buying."

Its a question of where to draw the line--and you'll never get folks to agree to exactly where the line should be drawn.

Would you feel the same about someone buying drinks for votes?

How about a gift worth less than $5? or how about $100?


Chris Thomas
Yes, it's somewhat subjective. Just a couple things. One is that it doesn't sound like he was telling them who to vote for. Obviously he wants them to vote for Kerry, but if we're going on technicalities, that's an important one. Also, in my mind it's not just about the worth of the gift. It's equally about the attitude of the gift. If it's a low-value gag (it's hard to give someone a yacht as a joke), then that's fine. If it's either high-value (like a yacht) or not really a joke (like $5 cash) then it's not so fine.

As for buying drinks? Well, that depends on the circumstance. If you ran into a bar at noon on election day and said "I'll buy a beer for anyone who goes out and votes right now" then no, I wouldn't have a problem with that. If they added "for _CANDIDATE-NAME_" then that would be wrong. If they give a speech about how much better one is, then said "Please vote _CANDIDATE-NAME_, but I'll buy anyone a beer to go vote right now, no matter who you vote for." then I would be inclined to give it a pass. Worth investigating to make sure it isn't true bribery or coercion? Sure. But illegal? I don't see why it should be, really.

I don't know what exactly Moore did. It's possible he overstepped the line, who knows. But from what I've read of it so far it seems much ado about nothing.

Bill:
I certainly see the point, but I think there are more shades of grey. Difference of opinion I suppose. I see room for a little joviality here.

Inidivual choice may be sacred, but it's not like accepting a package of underwear takes away that choice. Most of the pople going to a Moore rally to begin with know the score, know what it's all about.

How do you feel about MTV's Rock the Vote? Part of it, as I understand it, is free concerts to get people to go out and vote. I would say that the value of a concert far exceeds that of a package of underwear, and both are something exchanged with the hope (note, not any actual contract) that the receiver will go vote.
Doug Erickson
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:46 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Post by Doug Erickson »

Well, first of all, what Moore is doing is *definitely* illegal, both on the federal and state levels.

The Voting Rights Act of 1965 (more specifically, the 1973 amendment, 42 U.S.C 1973i(c)) prohibits “vote buying” in the broadest terms possible, by forbidding any “payment” or “offer of payment” that is made to a would-be voter “for voting” or to induce unregistered individuals to get onto the electoral rolls. A “payment” encompasses anything of material value.

Furthermore, Section 931(1)(b) of the Michigan Election Code provides that a person engaging in either of the following acts is guilty of a misdemeanor:

(b) A person shall not, either before, on, or after an election, for the person’s own benefit or on behalf of any other person, receive, agree, or contract for valuable consideration for 1 or more of the following:

*snip*

(i) Voting or agreeing to vote, or inducing or attempting to induce another to vote, at an election.

As used in Section 931 of Michigan Election Code (MCL 168.931), the term 'valuable consideration' includes, but is not limited to, money, property, a gift, a prize or chance for a prize, a fee, a loan, an office, a position, an appointment, or employment. Any person who shall be found guilty of a misdemeanor under the provisions of Section 931 of Michigan Election Code shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $500.00, or by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not exceeding 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment in the discretion of the court. Section 934 of the Michigan Election Code (MCL 168.934).


One reason this type of activity is outlawed is because it is possible to play on demographic groups. College kids, on average, lean more to the left than older folks. Coercing thousands of them to vote through giveaways is to Kerry's advantage.

Of course, Moore has chosen underwear and Ramen noodles as his giveaways specifically because it makes Republicans look asinine when they protest it. Which gives Moore the chance to point out how ridiculous the mean old Republicans are.

The really irritating thing about this, at least to me, is that what people will remember from this story is not that Moore flagrantly broke the law, but that the Republicans took the bait and made themselves look like humorless spoilsports.

-Doug
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I would never have taken him to be that Machiavellian. Regardless of whether he was or wasn't, your point is spot on.

I guess it's a bit like Howard Stern testing obscenity laws. It's a means to another end - getting more attention and achieving his (economic) ends.

I'm not Republican, but I count myself in the category of the humorless. My wife's drug vendors think me the same, but I can at least sleep at night. Furthermore, I've learned a lesson from my dad on this one. Treat others with these high standards, and (in general) they'll do the same for you. Have someone do a favor for you that skirts the law, and expect to be stabbed in the back one day by the very same person.

College kids in many institutions have a shocking lack of ethics. Somehow they don't think it a crime to pirate software or digital music. But have someone steal their bike or stereo... That was one good thing about the University of Virginia. The single sanction honor system* made that a very different environment.

- Bill

* (permanent expulsion for one infraction of lieing, cheating, or stealing)
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I got to thinking about this a bit, and it brought back some memories.

I spent years and years in school (double major undergaduate, 2 graduate degrees) so bloody poor that I can remember being jealous seeing the amount of food on the cafeteria tray of a jock and being insanely jealous because his scholarship paid for it and I was stuck weighing what I weighed because of my budget. There was a time (years in fact) where a pair of underwear, a box of noodles, or a cleaned room had tremendous value to me. To wit, I discovered that 3 pound boxes of store brand elbow macaroni was the absolute cheapest way to get pasta, and I wore underwear until the elastic no longer held the hole-filled material on my body.

To a poor college student, these "innocent" gag gifts are serious compensation. If you've never been that poor for a very long time, you'll never relate.

When you think about it, a good deal of the unethical Democratic base could be bought pretty cheaply. (I am not assuming Democrats are any more or less ethical than members of any other party)

- Bill
Valkenar
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Somerville, ma.

Post by Valkenar »

Bill Glasheen wrote: College kids in many institutions have a shocking lack of ethics. Somehow they don't think it a crime to pirate software or digital music. But have someone steal their bike or stereo...
I believe the crime you're referring to is copyright infringement. As I'm sure you recognize, there are some important differences between copyright infringement and theft of material posessions. Maybe I'll start a new thread on this.
User avatar
Panther
Posts: 2807
Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Massachusetts

Post by Panther »

Valkenar wrote:I believe the crime you're referring to is copyright infringement. As I'm sure you recognize, there are some important differences between copyright infringement and theft of material posessions. Maybe I'll start a new thread on this.
Being an engineer who holds patents, designs hardware and software for a living, and being a musician with a degree in classical and jazz composition and CDs pressed...

Copyright infringement IS theft of tangible material!

Don't want to pay (even once) for the SW or HW... write, design, do the research & development and pay the costs to produce or build your own.
Don't want to pay (even once) for some music... write, play, produce, record and listen to your own.

I knew about Napster-type sharing in a number of iterations... there are still programs and ways out there to do that. I also freely shared work with those who were willing to reciprocate. But if I want to hear a song, I'll go to the concert or buy the album... and if I want to see a movie, I'll go to the theatre or buy the DVD. The whole idea that there is a grey area between theft and stealing is based on a subjective morality that is lost on the vast majority of people. While there may be a grey area in some instances, we aren't talking about people who are taking something for pure survival of themselves or their family. I can relate to Bill... When I went through college for my degree in music, my food budget was three subs (grinders, whatever you want to call them) a week. I had 1/4 of one Mon-Thurs, 1/2 of one on Fri-Sat, and "treated" myself to a whole one on Sunday. I couldn't even afford the cafeteria food at the college... cost more than the local sub shop. I dropped to the weight I was in 6th grade. And I never thought of stealing anything to eat or of stealing my school books which were where my main budget went.
Post Reply

Return to “Realist Training”