But the politicians and the corporations they protect sap the good feeling those hard working researchers in labs far and wide, by controlling ehat research they can do..using some type of "ethical" standard to control research.
"Can't do that research...it's unethical".
Gene
Townhall Debate..
some feelings
Ben, I'm not trying to deconstruct your words or make a big issue about your comments as to having your kids go to school with kids from the other side of the river.But I would say it was probably not meant in a bad way and I agree you have every right to educate your children the way you see fit.However just making the statement alone about the other side of the river kind of seems vague to me.I mean people who have low incomes and are from the other side of the river are sometimes more mannered and responsible than kids from the so called right side of the river.and I've seen many kids with bad parents that with the help of grandparents and other family go to these bad side of the river schools and become valuable friends of others and good members of the community.drugs aren't limited to the river in my view or any other behavior.
I feel like this kind of seems like a generalization you see from many democrats who will defend many things such as gay and lesbain marriage rights and talk about the evils of the church and so on and so forth and make them sound so discriminatory and then in the same breath turn and say something like my kids need to be on the good side of Americas river.If you guys support prochoice and marriage rights of lesbain and gays are they only to be supported if they are from the good side of the river also? and Ben you may not as I said have meant it this way and I respect you but the way it was said it seems like you are saying kids from the good side are the only ones valuable and kids who are poor and have problems are waste of society and have no chance.I thought us bad Republicans were for the rich and the Democrats were for the common and the poor or is that just what Democrats claim? is it be understanding when it's correct and it doesn't effect you or is it be inclusive and understanding valueing all people both rich and poor always right river or wrong river? they are all american children to me..I'm sure they are to you but I think your comment left alot open for questions.
Jeff
I feel like this kind of seems like a generalization you see from many democrats who will defend many things such as gay and lesbain marriage rights and talk about the evils of the church and so on and so forth and make them sound so discriminatory and then in the same breath turn and say something like my kids need to be on the good side of Americas river.If you guys support prochoice and marriage rights of lesbain and gays are they only to be supported if they are from the good side of the river also? and Ben you may not as I said have meant it this way and I respect you but the way it was said it seems like you are saying kids from the good side are the only ones valuable and kids who are poor and have problems are waste of society and have no chance.I thought us bad Republicans were for the rich and the Democrats were for the common and the poor or is that just what Democrats claim? is it be understanding when it's correct and it doesn't effect you or is it be inclusive and understanding valueing all people both rich and poor always right river or wrong river? they are all american children to me..I'm sure they are to you but I think your comment left alot open for questions.
Jeff
one more Ben.
Ben sorry i know you're a good guy and respect ya I do but you said about you don't want a spawn in the world from a mother who has had an abortion without feeling. I just watched a story tonight on sixty minutes about the mafia man last name Hill who the movie goodfella's was based on and his children after a horrible life as young people thanks to their father became great success stories. The son is a lawyer and the daughter has a perfectly normal prospering family.I like the adoption solution and I'm glad you advocate that.But any way this guy Hill he was a cold blooded mafia man and his kids grew up fine and dandy and I wholeheartedly disagree with you on your statement.The sins of a bad parent in my mind don't dictate a childs future outcome much like Gene made the point about Kerry's kids not being illegitimate and I agree they are not because of the reason the church stated cause the parents sins are not held against them as it should be.
Jeff
Jeff
one last important example..
I work with a girl at the bank who had a father who for many years was a heroin addict and recently died of an overdose and the girl who is only nineteen was more the parent in the family her whole life and she sought help for him in so many ways but unfortunately that did not work and he died of an overdose.But This girl is successful and hopeful and continues to live a clean and prosperous life and i'm sure as she has felt the pain of being poor and having an addict in her family that died that she will pass on good and wise advice to her kids someday and act in a way even with her actions as to not feel that hurt again and to make sure others learn in so many ways.These kinds of adversaties can even down the road make someone more of a ray of light and hope for others than someone who had come from a squeeky clean background.
Remember a beautiful pearl comes out of a shell that isn't so sparkling but waiting inside is the gem.Never count anyone out of life.there is always hope even for the ones who sometimes seem so lacking.
Jeff
Remember a beautiful pearl comes out of a shell that isn't so sparkling but waiting inside is the gem.Never count anyone out of life.there is always hope even for the ones who sometimes seem so lacking.
Jeff
one last note..
I went through the public school system and many out there reading this are probably laughing now and saying see you're the perfect example of someone who did not benefit lol and I readily admit I'm not an Einstein by any means lol.However i feel i learned alot about real life and people. I had both the people who could afford the hundred dollar shoes and the folks who had holes in their shoes.Honestly it was a perfect microcosm of what you would find in any workplace after the school years are over.
I am so glad i learned not only about different people from the books i read in school but from the experience of being beside them everyday in class and in town and not just hearing or reading about them and the way they live but from seeing it daily.I feel there is alot more to an education than reading books and the most important kind of education comes from experiencing different people cultures and things as they happen in real life and I do feel the public school system affords you this valuable tool in life.
I support people having the choice of schools for their kids but I do think pulling kids out of public schools robs them of a real life experience you won't find at some elite prep school.It's so beneficial to understand that what you hear and read is alot different from the actuality of alot of situations and to know that whether your black, white , asian or hispanic or whatever or poor or rich that we all go through struggles and have feelings and aspirations and desires and hopes much the same.I support choice but personally I would opt for a public education for my children simply because I feel it's more representative of the facts that kids will have to come to know sooner or later and I say the sooner the better.And it's important for kids to know regardless of color or financial situations they can have a friend in any of these categories that is just as valuable as the next guy cause there is good and bad in everything.
I value life experience over books anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.And I would want my kids to get a real life experience as well as a good book education.Plus and I'm not generalizing here but I found alot of friends I truly feel always stuck beside me regardless of any factors and would not turn away and run out when I needed them and In my opinion I doubt I could have found the friends who knew about loyalty and how to be a friend in an atmosphere where much was about being priviledged enough to be there by means of money then by means of character.I also hung out with both sides of the river and was welcomed by both with open arms truly as most of my community was.We had some rich kids who were people you wouldn't pay to be around and some poor kids that were the same way but not because one had money and the other not.It was because one was cool and a good friend regardless of where the parents stood economically.
I'm thankful for all that..
Jeff
I am so glad i learned not only about different people from the books i read in school but from the experience of being beside them everyday in class and in town and not just hearing or reading about them and the way they live but from seeing it daily.I feel there is alot more to an education than reading books and the most important kind of education comes from experiencing different people cultures and things as they happen in real life and I do feel the public school system affords you this valuable tool in life.
I support people having the choice of schools for their kids but I do think pulling kids out of public schools robs them of a real life experience you won't find at some elite prep school.It's so beneficial to understand that what you hear and read is alot different from the actuality of alot of situations and to know that whether your black, white , asian or hispanic or whatever or poor or rich that we all go through struggles and have feelings and aspirations and desires and hopes much the same.I support choice but personally I would opt for a public education for my children simply because I feel it's more representative of the facts that kids will have to come to know sooner or later and I say the sooner the better.And it's important for kids to know regardless of color or financial situations they can have a friend in any of these categories that is just as valuable as the next guy cause there is good and bad in everything.
I value life experience over books anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.And I would want my kids to get a real life experience as well as a good book education.Plus and I'm not generalizing here but I found alot of friends I truly feel always stuck beside me regardless of any factors and would not turn away and run out when I needed them and In my opinion I doubt I could have found the friends who knew about loyalty and how to be a friend in an atmosphere where much was about being priviledged enough to be there by means of money then by means of character.I also hung out with both sides of the river and was welcomed by both with open arms truly as most of my community was.We had some rich kids who were people you wouldn't pay to be around and some poor kids that were the same way but not because one had money and the other not.It was because one was cool and a good friend regardless of where the parents stood economically.
I'm thankful for all that..
Jeff
Lastly and truly sorry..
About the river analogy you just may find more drugs on the side you view as the right side because these people's kids often have more money in the pockets of their pants to purchase them and the kids on the so called right side don't have the benefit of seeing what really hapens to kids who abuse drugs on the so called improper side of the river.
The same goes for parents too and abuse or any crisis a family may face it's without class bias and doesn't have any thing to do with what side of the river your on.And lastly some kids may end up in a bad way not bad people but in a bad way regardless of the side of the river they live on because of things they see on tv and hadn't seen the effects of in life to know about or to deter them.But one thing is right though you see alot more liquor and gun stores and bars on the so called bad side of the river then you do on the good side.But kids if they want will find a way to get a hold of things no matter what side they are on if they don't know the effects of making bad choices.
And it seems to me today in the news you see the cops finding more meth labs in nice neighborhoods as a disquise then you see them raiding on the poor side.What better way to disquise yourself and get more clients than to be on a side you're not supposed to be on.Plus alot of folks on the poor side only have a choice of a can of beans for some food or a joint and I think mostly they choose the beans.Where a rich person has the tools and money to have both in endless supply.I'm done spouting lol now thanks guys and see ya soon.
Jeff
The same goes for parents too and abuse or any crisis a family may face it's without class bias and doesn't have any thing to do with what side of the river your on.And lastly some kids may end up in a bad way not bad people but in a bad way regardless of the side of the river they live on because of things they see on tv and hadn't seen the effects of in life to know about or to deter them.But one thing is right though you see alot more liquor and gun stores and bars on the so called bad side of the river then you do on the good side.But kids if they want will find a way to get a hold of things no matter what side they are on if they don't know the effects of making bad choices.
And it seems to me today in the news you see the cops finding more meth labs in nice neighborhoods as a disquise then you see them raiding on the poor side.What better way to disquise yourself and get more clients than to be on a side you're not supposed to be on.Plus alot of folks on the poor side only have a choice of a can of beans for some food or a joint and I think mostly they choose the beans.Where a rich person has the tools and money to have both in endless supply.I'm done spouting lol now thanks guys and see ya soon.
Jeff
ok I am done now and I do apologize for going so long
I just wanted to bring up some disasters I felt democrats just stood by and let go down in my opinion and one was the shooting of a mother in Rudy Ridge, Idaho that was terribly unjustified in my opinion and washed away and I realize this was during the Clinton years but still Kerry was a senator and I didn't see any public outcry.And what happened in Waco, Texas and I realize the Dividians did injure some of the F.B.I. men and I of course did not agree with that either but they could have arrested the leader of this cult on the street without any fuss when he usually went to town but instead chose to ram tanks into a house fully occupied by American children that later burnt down killing many.Again no public outcry.Then the Chinese connection to our nuclear secrets and facilities was washed away and these are just some things that leave a bad taste in my mouth from these so called compassionate liberals.many of our fighting men were on welfare then.In the square in China when they ran over people with tanks and killed people seeking freedom we called it terrible which it was.But on our own streets at relatively the same time we shot a mother with a baby in her arms in the face for no good reason and ran tanks into the house in Waco.The liberals then did things not to far away from the communists in my opinion.Also they ingnored the attack on the U.S.S COLE and the first trade center bombing and based on this track record of horrible screw ups and neglect we're now supposed to want them in office for our greater good.Please......I say not by my vote. they talk about Bush going after terrorists and not being effective we had some of our own domestic terrorists like Janet Reno in my opinion for one and never brought her to justice so I say at least Bush doesn't have any terrorists in his own White House.He's doing a fine job and the liberals don't have alot of room to talk about bad policy on this one.
Jeff
Jeff
And how do you think Bush , Ashcroft, and team would have handled Waco and Ruby Ridge? I know this is speculative but my guess is probably the same. I'm not a Dem, or Rep. but I just don't understand why the love for Bush. Are we better off now than 4 years ago? Safer in the world? Do you trust the government more now? As CEO of America Inc., he has led us into trillions of dollars into debt, gotten us into a losing war for dubious reasons(ok, he just lied), the whole world hates us, the jobs he "created " happen to be in China , his neo-conservative religiousleanings threaten certain constitutional rights,....just what good has he done?
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Mills75
So much to respond to. 
I'm at work and big brother is watching so I'll be breif.
Let me explain what I mean by "The River". My section of Roanoke is a pretty nice neighborhood... people actually give a sh!t about what there yard looks like, if there kids are off the street before dark, we have a civic leage that just bought a vacant lot and turned it into a park for the neighborhood(with all local donations). On the other side of the Roanoke River It's the oposite. Though it's a half mile away It's the polar oposite ofmy neighborhood.
When I drive home from my karate workouts ~ 930 pm the hookers are just starting to roam the streets and the crack dealers are out. I cross a bridge and Viola.. my neighborhood. It's not perfect, but there is an unspoken acknowledgement that we all want it to get nicer.. and it is getting that way all the time.
I don't want my kid going to school with there kids. Call me a hypocrite for voting democrat, fine. I don't give a flying F*** I'm perfectly comfortable with having my boy being sheltered as long as possible.. He'll learn to fight in a dojo, not on the playground everyday.
And for my statement about the spawn of an unfit mother roaming the earth goes.. I see your point and I appreciate that there is only a shade of grey there.
PS. I am sincerely glad you are posting so often now Jeff, it's always good to have fresh views expressed. Even if we don't agree we force each other the look inward towards our beliefs and values. Posting here has made me see things differently.. though I'll probably not ever admit where
I'm at work and big brother is watching so I'll be breif.
Let me explain what I mean by "The River". My section of Roanoke is a pretty nice neighborhood... people actually give a sh!t about what there yard looks like, if there kids are off the street before dark, we have a civic leage that just bought a vacant lot and turned it into a park for the neighborhood(with all local donations). On the other side of the Roanoke River It's the oposite. Though it's a half mile away It's the polar oposite ofmy neighborhood.
When I drive home from my karate workouts ~ 930 pm the hookers are just starting to roam the streets and the crack dealers are out. I cross a bridge and Viola.. my neighborhood. It's not perfect, but there is an unspoken acknowledgement that we all want it to get nicer.. and it is getting that way all the time.
I don't want my kid going to school with there kids. Call me a hypocrite for voting democrat, fine. I don't give a flying F***
I'm perfectly comfortable with having my boy being sheltered as long as possible.. He'll learn to fight in a dojo, not on the playground everyday. And for my statement about the spawn of an unfit mother roaming the earth goes.. I see your point and I appreciate that there is only a shade of grey there.
PS. I am sincerely glad you are posting so often now Jeff, it's always good to have fresh views expressed. Even if we don't agree we force each other the look inward towards our beliefs and values. Posting here has made me see things differently.. though I'll probably not ever admit where
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
We have the same issues here in Richmond. A Canadian I hired who lived in Toronto thought it would be neat to live in the legendary Fan area of Richmond which was near the University (VCU) and the historic area of Richmond. I warned him... Now he comes home to prostitutes propositioning him at night, vandalism of vehicles, and burglaries in the neighborhood. Once upon a time, Richmond was murder capital of the U.S. We are on the I-95 corridor from Miami to Boston where all the drugs come and go. And those crack dealers do not play nice...
Big changes have happened thanks to a program where there was manditory sentencing for folks who comitted a crime while in possession of a firearm. But it still isn't a nice place to live. So we have the classic urban decay and suburban sprawl.
Where Rich and I live, crime is the lowest in the nation (on a relative basis). The SOL (Standard of Learning) scores are among the best in the state in the public schools. Meanwhile, downtown Richmond has nearly the highest dropout rate in the state, and crime seems to be focused in certain neighborhoods. The banks have all fled to Charlotte, NC. All the new industries (with some exceptions) are in the surrounding counties.
So... Where are you going to buy a home? Hmmm???
When it's your kid, you have an obligation as a parent to put their needs first. When it is your dollar, you are going to buy a home in a place where its value will not diminish. End of story. People vote with their actions and dollars, and the demographics of the area reflect it.
If I were czar of this area, I could fix it. But I am not... Downtown Richmond seems to want to stay the way it is. Goodie for them. I like Henrico County, thank you very much.
The sad thing is that good but poor people don't always have the economic means to do the best for their kids. Government could do better, but it doesn't. It panders to their desires rather than addressing needs.
Let Ben be Ben, vote for whom he wishes, and send his kids to the schools he chooses. When the world is ready, Ben and I will fix it all.
- Bill
Big changes have happened thanks to a program where there was manditory sentencing for folks who comitted a crime while in possession of a firearm. But it still isn't a nice place to live. So we have the classic urban decay and suburban sprawl.
Where Rich and I live, crime is the lowest in the nation (on a relative basis). The SOL (Standard of Learning) scores are among the best in the state in the public schools. Meanwhile, downtown Richmond has nearly the highest dropout rate in the state, and crime seems to be focused in certain neighborhoods. The banks have all fled to Charlotte, NC. All the new industries (with some exceptions) are in the surrounding counties.
So... Where are you going to buy a home? Hmmm???
When it's your kid, you have an obligation as a parent to put their needs first. When it is your dollar, you are going to buy a home in a place where its value will not diminish. End of story. People vote with their actions and dollars, and the demographics of the area reflect it.
If I were czar of this area, I could fix it. But I am not... Downtown Richmond seems to want to stay the way it is. Goodie for them. I like Henrico County, thank you very much.
The sad thing is that good but poor people don't always have the economic means to do the best for their kids. Government could do better, but it doesn't. It panders to their desires rather than addressing needs.
Let Ben be Ben, vote for whom he wishes, and send his kids to the schools he chooses. When the world is ready, Ben and I will fix it all.
- Bill
Bill, I hope you're not surprised that I am aware that billing involves a lot of made up numbers. I am not speaking about 8 dollar tylenols and 500 dollar nights in rooms here, I'm talking about medicare allowable physician's fees which represent the work done by us AND our fleet of residents. We collect about a third of these "reasonable" fees, and as a result, despite the fact that we each have about 10-15 rather sick patients daily, the hospital had to pay 1.8 million just to support the program overhead and salaries. That's as down to earth as I can make it: because our patients don't pay, or have insurance, our billing collections only cover a bit over a third of our costs, which we fight to keep to a minimum (we lowered the hospital's costs on these patients enough to save them about 2.2 million). Thanks for your support however, and I'm in it because it's usually mentally and emotionally rewarding, this year pays as well as I need (and should continue to, because the state won't just close the hospitals!), and needs to get done.
It's clear that people's taxes are always going to go to things they find unethical, otherwise we'd be able to opt out of taxes going to Iraq conflict. However, an elective abortion is just that, whereas we presumably made a collective decision to fight in Iraq because it was felt necessary.
As for Kerry, yes, "This is a proLIFE Catholic," but I still don't see the problem. There's a difference between your private religious beliefs and those you push through while governing. End. "Would it be fair of me to judge Muslims and the Muslim faith because a few Muslims choose to kill in the name of Allah?" No, and that's why I specified I wasn't lumping them all together!!! Just emphasizing that I don't feel safe in his hands and that his being a man of faith doesn't change that. I don't remember the BM9 exact numbers, but I recall the verdict: they provided a lot of help to swing the vote. Evangelicals were largely BEHIND the creation and promotion of this and other anti-gay pieces of legislation. I'm well aware of the Catholic church's activity in this area too (My feeling was that Bishop O'Malley (came on the Boston scene to rescue the church from an enormous child abuse scandal) should get his own house in order and deal with the heterosexual divorce rate before he tackles another community's supposed immorality and instability, but that is quite another matter).
I just now noted that one of my words is computer bleeped out... it only says "Bush-ites." Without the hyphen there's a hidden naughty word in there. FYI. How are we going to discuss Shi-to Ryu?
It's clear that people's taxes are always going to go to things they find unethical, otherwise we'd be able to opt out of taxes going to Iraq conflict. However, an elective abortion is just that, whereas we presumably made a collective decision to fight in Iraq because it was felt necessary.
As for Kerry, yes, "This is a proLIFE Catholic," but I still don't see the problem. There's a difference between your private religious beliefs and those you push through while governing. End. "Would it be fair of me to judge Muslims and the Muslim faith because a few Muslims choose to kill in the name of Allah?" No, and that's why I specified I wasn't lumping them all together!!! Just emphasizing that I don't feel safe in his hands and that his being a man of faith doesn't change that. I don't remember the BM9 exact numbers, but I recall the verdict: they provided a lot of help to swing the vote. Evangelicals were largely BEHIND the creation and promotion of this and other anti-gay pieces of legislation. I'm well aware of the Catholic church's activity in this area too (My feeling was that Bishop O'Malley (came on the Boston scene to rescue the church from an enormous child abuse scandal) should get his own house in order and deal with the heterosexual divorce rate before he tackles another community's supposed immorality and instability, but that is quite another matter).
I just now noted that one of my words is computer bleeped out... it only says "Bush-ites." Without the hyphen there's a hidden naughty word in there. FYI. How are we going to discuss Shi-to Ryu?
--Ian
LoL guys...
Guys I enjoy ya really and I wanted to apologize for the one post talking about the ruby ridge and waco stuff I sometimes roll on emotion and it got the best of me there it was an ill advised post and I apologize for that one.I Was just saying the other posts though i agree you guys have the right to educate as you please it's sad that one day if we keep moving on the outskirts and trying to find a nice place which everyone wants then one day we're going to run out of room from leaving all the nice places that turned bad behind. I don't expect you guys to fix them But I wish the goverment would and the people who live there somehow is all and Ben I knew what you meant by the River just wanted to make sure and say that river the way it's going might not be so nice one day either but who knows best wishes.Yes maybe I do use my third eye sometimes but it comes from the heart though lol..
Jeff
Jeff
Wow Ben...........!!!!!!!!!!!
I missed the link you had there the first time I posted and so I apologize and had to repost here to say what a great looking kid and congrats to you. that's a wonderful thing and a great gift and I'm glad the baby has good people to look out for him and to direct him in life.Good looking young man with a bright future no doubt about it and again congrats.When you see that politics and all the talk between us really takes a back seat to what's really important in life..
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ian
Yes, there have been many a time that I've had to modify words like $hito Ryu or Tsuken$hitahaku no sai.
Kerry's position is fine. I just wish he had the balls to come out and say it. "Government has no business telling women what to do with their bodies - period." But he won't. He puts way to much faith in government to speak of it that way.
You know... I've been giving your position a lot of thought. I listened to Bush in the third debate. He's pretty convincing on his desire to have a Constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage. It's got a snowball's chance in hell of passing, but he most definitely thinks that way.
And on the subject of Cheney having "skin" in the game... There's been quite the flap about first Edwards, and then Kerry coming out in their debates and using Cheney's daughter to make a point for themselves. Her mom got on TV last night and called Kerry "lower than low" for using her daughter that way. Interesting...she has a point. I wonder what Edwards would think if people started posting pictures of his kids on websites, along with details of their lives? Chilling when you think about it.
Anyhow, I understand your frustration. I've gotten over a lot of frustration a long time ago. I just have to figure out who comes closest to believing what I believe, and how much does the difference result in substantive action.
- Bill
Yes, there have been many a time that I've had to modify words like $hito Ryu or Tsuken$hitahaku no sai.
Kerry's position is fine. I just wish he had the balls to come out and say it. "Government has no business telling women what to do with their bodies - period." But he won't. He puts way to much faith in government to speak of it that way.
You know... I've been giving your position a lot of thought. I listened to Bush in the third debate. He's pretty convincing on his desire to have a Constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage. It's got a snowball's chance in hell of passing, but he most definitely thinks that way.
And on the subject of Cheney having "skin" in the game... There's been quite the flap about first Edwards, and then Kerry coming out in their debates and using Cheney's daughter to make a point for themselves. Her mom got on TV last night and called Kerry "lower than low" for using her daughter that way. Interesting...she has a point. I wonder what Edwards would think if people started posting pictures of his kids on websites, along with details of their lives? Chilling when you think about it.
Anyhow, I understand your frustration. I've gotten over a lot of frustration a long time ago. I just have to figure out who comes closest to believing what I believe, and how much does the difference result in substantive action.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
