military

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:15 pm

Panther,

Good post!

Bill,

I'm with you about the F*** France and some of the rest. Although I would have some reservations about screwing with Russia and China for diplomatic reasons. No reason to tick off the world's largest country and largest population. Their rhetoric is old and no one is listening anyway, but that is certainly no reason for us to throw our vast superiority at them.

I'd have to check the full lyrics of the song (2nd version came out in the 80's from album of same name I believe), but I don't think the song was of Kent State. Definately Vietnam and war in general. Maybe you are thinking about "Ohio" by CSN&Y? They are one of my favorite bands and I would have loved to see them on the late show. I'm sorry I missed it.

As for the draft question, gee Bill sensei, you must have a big butt. Better do a few more Sanchins

But honestly, you may be right, but I wouldn't be betting on the integrity of a man who has already proven to be liar. And now, as a lame duck president, what does he have to lose by initiating the proposal to Congress? Posterity??? I'm telling you this right now, he'll never see himself beside Roosevelt, Lincoln, Jefferson, or Washington, if you know what I mean.

Lastly, as for the Civil War...

You are correct about the South being primarly agricultural. In 1861, Richmond and Atlanta were the only two real industrial centers located in the South, but what they did, mostly on their own to create industry was nothing short of amazing. By 1865, they still were producing more than they could use, so accept for the luxury items from Europe, they didn't really need the product (could of used the trade dollars though).

As for the POW camps in the South, no doubt Andersonville and Libby were extremely bad, especially after Grant shut down the practice of transfering prisoners, but the North had their own share of horrendous camps, and their economy was in much better shape. Hmmm?

The point I made was that the South had many opportunities to survive this war and possibly win. It wasn't really decided until the elections of 1864 that the death knell was signaled

"Economics also won The Cold War. " No doubt. We out-spent the USSR (and we'll feel it for many years to come), but to say the Civil War was won through economics on the surface would be a tough sell for me. It was a war of attrition and patience and energy. By 1865 desertion rates in the Southern army were skyrocketing. Why? Because they weren't getting paid enough? Weren't clothed well enough? Didn't have "Holiday Inn" accomodations? Hardly. They left because there was nothing left to fight for and their homes were being destroyed or crops left undone. Not to mention that by 1865 individual states were more independent than ever. Georgia and North Carolina were ready to break away from the CSA, and the Trans-Mississippi (or Kirby Smithdom) was already semi autonomous.

Anyway, bring on that thread baby!!!

cya,

mike

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:50 pm

Mike

Find the Cost of Freedom is played just before Ohio on a CSN&Y album. And Ohio I know was written practically in a weekend after the Kent State Massacre. I remember listening to a documentary on it.

Was Find the Cost of Freedom written earlier? Good question. I'll check it out.

Yes, Richmond was quite the industrial area. Believe it or not, I find evidence of mining in my neighborhood from around the time of the civil war. There are occasional sink holes that appear out of nowhere in a back yard down the street. I see lumps of coal in the woods, and evidence of mining for iron. Also, you can look at the flora (the trees) and see swaths of newer and older growth of trees - even though my area was "the boonies" until a decade ago.

Lots of raw materials needed for the war effort, and evidence that this is where some of it was coming from.

We'll get Rich in the thread in a bit.

GW is no Abe Lincoln. But then Abe himself was a flawed man. He just happened to have lived in "interesting times."

We shall see...

Well they say time loves a hero

but only time will tell

If he's real, he's a legend from heaven

If he ain't he was sent here from hell

- Little Feat

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:11 pm

Find the Cost of Freedom was copywrited in 1970 by CSN&Y. That is the time of the Kent State Massacre.

And the two songs (FTCOF and Ohio) appeared on the same album - the first leading right into the next.

BTW, I got my timing wrong. I was in 10th, and not 9th grade then. I remember Mr. Rollin's English class. We were supposed to bring in a photo that was supposed to demand a question. Someone (Maria) brought in a photo of one of the National Guardsmen pointing his gun into the crowd. I remember asking her what the question was, and she said "Did he shoot the person or not?" I thought it was rather obvious...

Funny how when you live through times like those as a youth, you sort of appreciate the gravity, and yet you don't quite grasp it all.

- Bill

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:48 pm

Mike,

Good point about the atrocities in the POW camps on BOTH sides... At that time brothers were enemies and it is amazing how "enemies" can dehumanize and mistreat each other regardless of past shared history.

You're also correct about the independent nature of each of the CSA states. The issue of slavery wasn't really a main reason and issue of the war until Lincoln decided to use it to conscript northern blacks into fighting for him... and naturally after the war as a moral justification. The writings of the time, leading upto the war, show that the main issues were economics and independence. The states that formed the CSA did so in part because they were tired of paying a higher percentage of taxes into the Federal government than their northern counterparts and then having the Federal "subsidies" get redistributed TO those northern counterparts. They felt that it was unfair and it was. That's just historical fact. What is less of a fact, but can be learned from the political writings of the time is the southern independence streak. The northern states leaned heavily towards a strong Federal government, while the southern states leaned heavily towards independent states rights. I think that the states rights individuality was part of the south's downfall. The CSA was so beholden to the concept of individual freedom and individual states rights that it allowed things that were detrimental in a war situation. Such as allowing every railway to independently decide what guage their tracks were going to be. While the north was simply unhooking B&M cars and moving them to another train on the PA-line tracks, the south was forced to unload from carrier A and reload to carrier B, sometimes on a county-to-county basis! The main reason for this was that each of these carriers was out to protect their own turf... unwilling to realize that by being the way they were, there wasn't going to be any turf left to protect. In the end, the CSA simply couldn't resupply it's army fast enough and that was the first domino to fall...

Just my opinion...

I'm a strong believer in "State's Rights", individual freedoms, and lower government regulations, but this is a prime example of why some regulation is necessary sometime, just to insure that everything and everyone is working together. Sometimes, government is unduly influenced and makes bad decisions which everyone is forced to follow... and that's a big reason why there is backlash against government regulations. Regardless, there are just some instances where things match-up and run better because everyone has to work together.

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:13 pm

"Find the Cost of Freedom was copywrited in 1970 by CSN&Y. That is the time of the Kent State Massacre."

I have that album and have kept it in excellent condition. Every so often I play my old LPs for the kids. They enjoy them but do not understand the references as in 'Ohio'.

The National Guard was issued M1 rifles and hardball ammo. Why they were issued weapons better suited for open warfare is not clear to me. What is clear is that they were not well trained in crowd control. When set upon by a large and threatening group all it took was for one of these 18 year olds to panic and fire a shot. That set the whole debacle in motion.

"Yes, Richmond was quite the industrial area. Believe it or not, I find evidence of mining in my neighborhood from around the time of the civil war."

My home is on the site of the former building complex of one of the first coal mines in North America. The shaft is a few houses down. As a genuine coal miner from Pittsburgh, I knew this lot was the safest one in the area to be on as the coal companies NEVER took the coal out from under their own structures.

As for Richmond as an industrial center during the Cival War, even in 1865 the warehouses were full of food, shoes, clothing, whiskey, armaments etc. As the Union army approached the Confederate army torched the city and warehouses before fleeing across Mayo Bridge to prevent the Union army from getting the booty.

This had the unfortunate effect of depriving the starving Virginians of badly needed supplies. The Union army was actually welcomed as they ended the anarchy and brought some relief to the citizens. Very ironic.

The question is why were these supplies being hoarded instead of used to help the Confederate effort? I believe Panther's last post gives a good answer - provincialism.

Mike said: "But honestly, you may be right, but I wouldn't be betting on the integrity of a man who has already proven to be liar."

Mike: I'd like to see your documentation on this issue. Are you still beating that dead horse?

How about this: Kerry's hoarding of some $17 million of campaign funds that might have helped the dems in local elections. Greed perhaps? Character issues?

Rich

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:34 pm

Bill,

"Find the Cost of Freedom" was put out originally in 1970 as an instrumental mostly with the lyrics at the very end, but if you purchase the "Daylight Again" album, you will hear the song redone with lyrics all the way through. GREAT remake from a great band.

Rich,

I'm not beating the dead horse and you know it. There are plenty of already mentioned lies that are out there on the posts, in the newspapers, TV, and everywhere else you want to look. If you choose not to look, then so be it. Believe it or not, I respect you and Bill sensei for standing by this man and his failing cronies, but let's not be blinded by the BS. As for the Kerry remark, totally irrevelent as GM won the election and the issue of whether or not Kerry is the better candidate is moot (said with my tail between my legs).

Let's just talk Civil War (it's more fun).

With that said, lot's of hording toward the end of the war, but be careful about using the term "Virginians" in your explanation as although the Army of Northern Virginia was made up of mostly Virginia units, there was still many others from different states that would suffer as well. Lee's #1 subordinate, James Longstreet, was a Georgian.

mike

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:54 pm

OK, Civil War it is.

"This had the unfortunate effect of depriving the starving Virginians of badly needed supplies."

I meant this literally regarding the civilian populace. Central VA (I'm including Petersburg, Hopewell etc) was starving after months of siege, yet the warehouses in Richmond were full of provisions and materiel. I do not know who made the decision to hold these supplies back but most of it ended up destroyed.

Rich