Catholics, Christians, and bears, OH MY...
Being a "good catholic," means different things to different people. I know a lot of people who feel they belong in the Catholic church because its part of who they are, their family, and their heritage, and a place they belong. And they simply don't believe it if they're told they're a square peg in a round hole. There's no dispute that they're not vatican-rules-following catholics, but I don't think this mkes them noncatholic. After all, or for example, there's a reason we have the phrase, "lapsed catholic," rather than "former catholic." They're still catholic, even if they're not perfect. As for there being multiple sects of islam and only one of Catholicism, Mel Gibson would beg to differ. His group believes that all the ritual of roman catholicism is just a barrier between the individual and God. And if the noncoformits built up their numbers to the point where they could also call themselves a large catholic sect, they'd be able to legitimize their claim of being even rule following catholics, in a sense... but would any truths about God have changed?
--Ian
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Norm Abrahamson
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Ian nailed it
And on the 16th post common sense reared its head.
Ian wrote: Being a "good catholic," means different things to different people. I know a lot of people who feel they belong in the Catholic church because its part of who they are, their family, and their heritage, and a place they belong. And they simply don't believe it if they're told they're a square peg in a round hole. There's no dispute that they're not vatican-rules-following catholics, but I don't think this mkes them noncatholic.
_________________
--Ian
Most of us are not willing to be defined by somebody else, especially something as personal as religious beliefs. A pronouncement from on high (or from the side or below for that matter) that YOU CAN'T BE CATHOLIC BECAUSE YOU DON'T DO AS I DO AND PRAY AS I PRAY, is arrogance.
Merry Christmas to all.
Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson
Ian wrote: Being a "good catholic," means different things to different people. I know a lot of people who feel they belong in the Catholic church because its part of who they are, their family, and their heritage, and a place they belong. And they simply don't believe it if they're told they're a square peg in a round hole. There's no dispute that they're not vatican-rules-following catholics, but I don't think this mkes them noncatholic.
_________________
--Ian
Most of us are not willing to be defined by somebody else, especially something as personal as religious beliefs. A pronouncement from on high (or from the side or below for that matter) that YOU CAN'T BE CATHOLIC BECAUSE YOU DON'T DO AS I DO AND PRAY AS I PRAY, is arrogance.
Merry Christmas to all.
Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson
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Bill Glasheen
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RACastanet
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Actually, one thing about the Catholic Church is that it does allow for variances in belief. I grew up in a Catholic family and we went to a church run by the Fransiscan Order. Pretty mainstream Catholic. However, there are other Orders that preach somewhat different doctrine.
So, instead of doing as the protestants did, and spin off into the Presbytarians and Methodists etc, the Catholic Church kept the different Orders under the same roof.
Rich
So, instead of doing as the protestants did, and spin off into the Presbytarians and Methodists etc, the Catholic Church kept the different Orders under the same roof.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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Norm Abrahamson
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Norm
You really want to push this one, don't you?
Look...I am an EX Catholic. It's not my cup of tea. Been there, done that. I can still recite half the damn Mass in Latin, thank you very much. And I know enough to know exactly why I and The Church need to go our separate ways.
The way I see it, The Church needs to stand for something. Agree with it and stay with them. Disagree with an Aristocracy such as The Catholic Church, and get on with your life elsewhere.
Look at it this way, Norm. Do you think Dr. Ian would have been a "good" doctor if he had chosen not to take one of his required classes in medical school?
Get my drift?
Let Catholics be Catholics, and let Norm be Norm. There are plenty of religions in this world one can belong to, and one doesn't need organized religion in the first place to live a spiritual life.
- Bill
You really want to push this one, don't you?
Look...I am an EX Catholic. It's not my cup of tea. Been there, done that. I can still recite half the damn Mass in Latin, thank you very much. And I know enough to know exactly why I and The Church need to go our separate ways.
The way I see it, The Church needs to stand for something. Agree with it and stay with them. Disagree with an Aristocracy such as The Catholic Church, and get on with your life elsewhere.
Look at it this way, Norm. Do you think Dr. Ian would have been a "good" doctor if he had chosen not to take one of his required classes in medical school?
Get my drift?
Let Catholics be Catholics, and let Norm be Norm. There are plenty of religions in this world one can belong to, and one doesn't need organized religion in the first place to live a spiritual life.
- Bill
Re: Ian nailed it
Well the Catholic church is arrogant... They say, believe this way or you are not a good member. Anyone can say you are a "lapsed Catholic", but that does not mean you are a catholic, only that you once were.Norm Abrahamson wrote: Ian wrote: Being a "good catholic," means different things to different people. I know a lot of people who feel they belong in the Catholic church because its part of who they are, their family, and their heritage, and a place they belong. And they simply don't believe it if they're told they're a square peg in a round hole. There's no dispute that they're not vatican-rules-following catholics, but I don't think this mkes them noncatholic.
_________________
--Ian
Most of us are not willing to be defined by somebody else, especially something as personal as religious beliefs. A pronouncement from on high (or from the side or below for that matter) that YOU CAN'T BE CATHOLIC BECAUSE YOU DON'T DO AS I DO AND PRAY AS I PRAY, is arrogance.
The Catholic church has rules, you cannot divorce, have an abortion, mastubate, have sex out of wed-lock, must go to church, confession and communion (among others). You can call yourself whatever you want, but the Catholic Church does not consider you a good Catholic. They may call you "lapsed" because they want you back and don't want to completely seperate you. Now, you can do any of those thing, confess them (and TRUELY mean you are sorry and will try not to do it again) and you are still a good Catholic. But, if you do any of them and believe they are not wrong, I do not believe the church considers you a good Catholic.
Hope you all had a good Boxing day.
Cheers,
ljr
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Bill Glasheen
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There is a bit of an "ignorance clause" involved with being in good grace WRT The Church. For instance if you were a young lad, dad hadn't told you about the birds and the bees, and you were playing with the trowser worm, well you have not sinned. Here is a case where ignorance truly is bliss. 
But once informed, one must abide by the rules.
I do like the "lapsed" phrase. I'm sure The Church likes to consider me a "lapsed" Catholic, and will see the light one day. That's fine, and it's truly nice to be wanted and loved.
Understand that I am not bashing anyone here. I just support the right of any organization to stand for SOMETHING - even if I disagree. You have to respect that.
- Bill
But once informed, one must abide by the rules.I do like the "lapsed" phrase. I'm sure The Church likes to consider me a "lapsed" Catholic, and will see the light one day. That's fine, and it's truly nice to be wanted and loved.
Understand that I am not bashing anyone here. I just support the right of any organization to stand for SOMETHING - even if I disagree. You have to respect that.
- Bill
I see echoes of marriage disputes here Bill. The basic idea is, if you don't take everything exactly as it comes in the Vatican rule kit, you have to throw out everything. Well, honestly... there wouldn't be many Catholics left if they were all forced to make that decision, and I think if you asked the priests, especially on the hush, as opposed to in front of the pope, they'd rather see their doors open to "imperfect" people by their rules rather than slammed shut against everyone who is only 99%. How do we know this? They're perfectly happy to see attendance swell on Easter and Xmas fully aware that these are people who ought to come every week per the rulebook. I'm double sure that if you asked Jesus that's how he'd feel (per how he is portrayed my almost all Christians).
Say there is a Catholic who follows doctrine to the letter. Say another has problems with some rule (such as Papal Infallibility in an age where we know old Catholic doctrines, such as the existance of only 5 planets which correspond to five holes in the head, to have been dead wrong) but who follows most of the doctrine. I fail to see how the first loses anything if the second isn't stripped of a central part of their beliefs and culture. What if guy #2 no has NO church to belong to because not surprisingly, beliefs don't commonly line up perfectly for people? That's probably the case for MOST.
As for medical school....
"Do you think Dr. Ian would have been a "good" doctor if he had chosen not to take one of his required classes in medical school?"
Let's think about this... there are DO's, and MD's from other schools, who took other classes. There are doctors in my class who were soooo far off the bell curve but were granted a D so they could scrape by Anatomy--and they probably don't need it now because they work in endocrine, research, opthamology, whatever. We could have skipped ethics and learned along the way. We could have skipped large swaths of basic sciences because we don't use them at all (biochem anyone?). Some skip ALL their classes and aced the tests off the notes. I use no pediatrics now; surgeons use ZERO psych, believe me... and yes they all are doctors. I should point out that they REMAIN doctors if they lose or don't renew their licenses, then they're just unlicensed. Stays part of their identity, plus, they've got a degree.
Or take Uechi. Lots of people do some parts differently. Some do new kata or drills. Some skip the supplemental ones. Some have splintered into their own organizations. Some cross train. It's all Uechi, and mine hasn't suffered for the diversity. They believe that it is like a finger, pointing a way to the moon--it's not the finger, but the heavenly glory, that emerges from the practice. Now I know concepts of religion are more strict, but it's reasonable to think that as a Catholic, what matters isn't the series of rules, but the relationship with God that results--and there is more ways to have that relationship than the 100% Vatican way. Catholics have compromised before--taking the timing and traditions of a Pagan holiday into their beliefs to attract members. Now, we call that Christmas, lug hunks of trees into our homes with church blessing, and pretend Christ was born on that date. Somewhere back when that choice was made some Catholic was arguing no one was a real Christian if they did this.
I also believe, that a Vatican Catholic with a solid, passionate, personal, devout relationship with God can maintain that relationship without skipping a beat EVEN if someone who uses birth control (because she thinks the age-old rule no longer applies in a world where overcrowding is causing suffering yet considers affection with her husband a gift from God) is still considered Catholic. Or if two men or women are allowed to have a civil marriage ceremony in San Francisco. If the Catholic's relationship with God CAN'T withstand those minor pertubations in their master plan, I call that evidence their system never stood for anything significant in the first place.
Say there is a Catholic who follows doctrine to the letter. Say another has problems with some rule (such as Papal Infallibility in an age where we know old Catholic doctrines, such as the existance of only 5 planets which correspond to five holes in the head, to have been dead wrong) but who follows most of the doctrine. I fail to see how the first loses anything if the second isn't stripped of a central part of their beliefs and culture. What if guy #2 no has NO church to belong to because not surprisingly, beliefs don't commonly line up perfectly for people? That's probably the case for MOST.
As for medical school....
"Do you think Dr. Ian would have been a "good" doctor if he had chosen not to take one of his required classes in medical school?"
Let's think about this... there are DO's, and MD's from other schools, who took other classes. There are doctors in my class who were soooo far off the bell curve but were granted a D so they could scrape by Anatomy--and they probably don't need it now because they work in endocrine, research, opthamology, whatever. We could have skipped ethics and learned along the way. We could have skipped large swaths of basic sciences because we don't use them at all (biochem anyone?). Some skip ALL their classes and aced the tests off the notes. I use no pediatrics now; surgeons use ZERO psych, believe me... and yes they all are doctors. I should point out that they REMAIN doctors if they lose or don't renew their licenses, then they're just unlicensed. Stays part of their identity, plus, they've got a degree.
Or take Uechi. Lots of people do some parts differently. Some do new kata or drills. Some skip the supplemental ones. Some have splintered into their own organizations. Some cross train. It's all Uechi, and mine hasn't suffered for the diversity. They believe that it is like a finger, pointing a way to the moon--it's not the finger, but the heavenly glory, that emerges from the practice. Now I know concepts of religion are more strict, but it's reasonable to think that as a Catholic, what matters isn't the series of rules, but the relationship with God that results--and there is more ways to have that relationship than the 100% Vatican way. Catholics have compromised before--taking the timing and traditions of a Pagan holiday into their beliefs to attract members. Now, we call that Christmas, lug hunks of trees into our homes with church blessing, and pretend Christ was born on that date. Somewhere back when that choice was made some Catholic was arguing no one was a real Christian if they did this.
I also believe, that a Vatican Catholic with a solid, passionate, personal, devout relationship with God can maintain that relationship without skipping a beat EVEN if someone who uses birth control (because she thinks the age-old rule no longer applies in a world where overcrowding is causing suffering yet considers affection with her husband a gift from God) is still considered Catholic. Or if two men or women are allowed to have a civil marriage ceremony in San Francisco. If the Catholic's relationship with God CAN'T withstand those minor pertubations in their master plan, I call that evidence their system never stood for anything significant in the first place.
--Ian
YES, she could maintain that good relationship with her God, BUT, but she is not concidered a "good Catholic". Being a good Catholic, requires following the Churches rules.IJ wrote:II also believe, that a Vatican Catholic with a solid, passionate, personal, devout relationship with God can maintain that relationship without skipping a beat EVEN if someone who uses birth control (because she thinks the age-old rule no longer applies in a world where overcrowding is causing suffering yet considers affection with her husband a gift from God) is still considered Catholic.
Remember you can have a wonderful, loving relationship with your God, but being a good Catholic means obeying the rules of the church. The line is fine (even smaller than the line between civil unions and marraige) but the church has definite rules that must be obeyed.
Ian, I challenge you to find any "non-fringe" reference that allows a good catholic to use birthcontrol other than abstinance.
Cheers,
ljr
I shouldn't... I really shouldn't... Aw heck......find any "non-fringe" reference that allows a good catholic to use birthcontrol other than abstinance.
Being a musician in a former life with my principle instrument being percussion... how about...
the Rhythm Method! Pidda-boom-crash!
(BTW, my mother-in-law says that the fact that she had nine kids is proof that the rhythm method doesn't work!)
The rhythm method works as follows:
1) Have a baby every 10 months
2) That's it.
I never said there was a rule that said a Catholic could use BC (except for medical reasons, i believe there is that exception). What I said was, ONE person's use of BC and remaining a "Catholic," albeit a Non-Vatican Rules Following Catholic (NVRFC) would not impair a Vatican Rules Following Catholic (VRFC) from participating in their faith, or their faith standing for something, or anything along those lines.
I should point out that I have ZERO interest in being a VRFC or NVRFC. I am just acutely aware of how painful it is to be told that you do not belong in the community you consider home because of some aspect of your life you believe is irrelevant, well reasoned, or even an attribute. I point out that a great many of the nation's Catholics are actually NVRFC and have not been excommunicated, I believe because the Church doesn't want to alienate a huge chunk of... itself... by kicking out people... that's not in line with how it views Jesus or Mary. And I point out that Mel Gibson doesn't take orders from the vatican and considers himself a Catholic and is considered by others, a Catholic. Cut the man some slack, is all I ask.
How many people here who are advocating for the side that only one man in the universe can decide what it means to be Catholic would be willing never again to think of themselves as doing Uechi if the leading Uechi authority told them they weren't authentic because they believed slightly differently--say, wouldn't consider using a seisan jump to disarm a samurai (I wouldn't!!). I think we would all, or largely, want to consider ourselves doing Uechi, and probably keep coming back to the dojo communities we cherish, rather than try to organize a brand-new "church" especially one where only those who felt exactly as we did could enter! And this is about our martial art, not GOD, which is a far bigger deal, especially since catholicism weighs heavily in people's cultures and families.
People using BC go to mass all the time, consider themselves catholic, and are considered catholic by others, all the time!
PS it is of no utility to point out that there are splinter factions in Uechi that lend justification to the idea Uechi can be done in more than one way, because this is precisely what the Catholic church is trying to avoid by letting NVRFC into their masses on a regular basis!
PPS Who wants to lay into the heretics for trying to bring the church into the more than five planets era? Were these people simply not catholics at the time because of their behavior, only to retrospectively become catholic again when the church caught up?
1) Have a baby every 10 months
2) That's it.
I never said there was a rule that said a Catholic could use BC (except for medical reasons, i believe there is that exception). What I said was, ONE person's use of BC and remaining a "Catholic," albeit a Non-Vatican Rules Following Catholic (NVRFC) would not impair a Vatican Rules Following Catholic (VRFC) from participating in their faith, or their faith standing for something, or anything along those lines.
I should point out that I have ZERO interest in being a VRFC or NVRFC. I am just acutely aware of how painful it is to be told that you do not belong in the community you consider home because of some aspect of your life you believe is irrelevant, well reasoned, or even an attribute. I point out that a great many of the nation's Catholics are actually NVRFC and have not been excommunicated, I believe because the Church doesn't want to alienate a huge chunk of... itself... by kicking out people... that's not in line with how it views Jesus or Mary. And I point out that Mel Gibson doesn't take orders from the vatican and considers himself a Catholic and is considered by others, a Catholic. Cut the man some slack, is all I ask.
How many people here who are advocating for the side that only one man in the universe can decide what it means to be Catholic would be willing never again to think of themselves as doing Uechi if the leading Uechi authority told them they weren't authentic because they believed slightly differently--say, wouldn't consider using a seisan jump to disarm a samurai (I wouldn't!!). I think we would all, or largely, want to consider ourselves doing Uechi, and probably keep coming back to the dojo communities we cherish, rather than try to organize a brand-new "church" especially one where only those who felt exactly as we did could enter! And this is about our martial art, not GOD, which is a far bigger deal, especially since catholicism weighs heavily in people's cultures and families.
People using BC go to mass all the time, consider themselves catholic, and are considered catholic by others, all the time!
PS it is of no utility to point out that there are splinter factions in Uechi that lend justification to the idea Uechi can be done in more than one way, because this is precisely what the Catholic church is trying to avoid by letting NVRFC into their masses on a regular basis!
PPS Who wants to lay into the heretics for trying to bring the church into the more than five planets era? Were these people simply not catholics at the time because of their behavior, only to retrospectively become catholic again when the church caught up?
--Ian
fercryinoutloud...
Youse guys really need to lighten up sometimes. Which is what I was trying to do.
J
O
K
E
I even smiley captioned for the humor-impaired...
But, on the part about not excommunicating folks who are, as put here, NVRFC... Just as we've had the discussion about many other subjects, especially war, my bet is on "economics". You start kicking out most of your members and you start losing some of those Sunday envelopes. Then the Boston Diocese would have to close even more churches to sell off the assets for revenues to pay for the "sins of the fathers"...
Youse guys really need to lighten up sometimes. Which is what I was trying to do.
J
O
K
E
I even smiley captioned for the humor-impaired...
But, on the part about not excommunicating folks who are, as put here, NVRFC... Just as we've had the discussion about many other subjects, especially war, my bet is on "economics". You start kicking out most of your members and you start losing some of those Sunday envelopes. Then the Boston Diocese would have to close even more churches to sell off the assets for revenues to pay for the "sins of the fathers"...
