The US is running out of ammunition and is placing an order for 300 million bullets -- from Taiwan. What happened to NAFTA?
http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050106095659.qo2jdpbs.html
When Red China invades Taiwan, the call will be "Gentlemen, load your slingshots."
That's tough.
US ARMS MADE IN CHINA
US ARMS MADE IN CHINA
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Expect anything if the American flag, our beloved Old Glory, is made in Red China. Hey, I read just in the past several weeks that they have been offering their little island friend some military deals, too; some sort of missile exchange bargaining.I just want the same deal the Taiwanese are getting!
Time to brush the dust off the ole Rock Crusher and come to aid of country in the event Taiwan becomes the US' sole supplier.Idunno, but I'd be willing to fire up the reloading press and crank out a bunch of .223 for the U.S. military...
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
I did some checking with my contacts in the U.S. military and the said that because of the anti-gun atmosphere in the U.S. which has hindered U.S. firearms and ammunition manufacturers, that the supply just isn't there. The consensus is that this is a plausible and quite probably accurate report.Bill Glasheen wrote:Interesting...
The sources for this article are rather weak. I'm not sure what to make of it.
Hmmmmm....
Always nice to have lots of spare brass, primers, powder and bullets in case of emergency! I have to concur with Allen, that if too much of our manufacturing gets "outsourced" we're in for some deep doo-doo here eventually.
==================================
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
A World's Top Website
Within a year into our next major war [iraq is a skirmish] we'll find out just how deep.we're in for some deep doo-doo here eventually.
As a side thought, I wonder the percentage of American GIs wounded in WWII. The percentage in iraq is about 10.
Been one of my favorite websites for a long time, Bart. In addition to worldwide military news, some of the new weaponry articles report on far-out fantastic stuff only dreamed about in my day. Lots of interesting non-military inventions, articles, science, and of course for current geological events there are numerous little-known tsunamis reports and info as well. This website is listed as #2 on Hundred Percenter's Top 25 Favorite WebsitesThe consensus is that this is a plausible and quite probably accurate report.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
-
Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Believe this if you wish, or not.
Leading up to the invasion of Iraq, Jeff Greenfield of CNN did an analysis of casualties of the last few wars we have fought. The analysis shoeed that the casualties in WW1 and WW2 were one in 13, in Korea it was 1 in 10, and in Vietnam it was 1 in 13 again. The lesson was that these were four different wars faught in four different theatres and scenarios, but the casualty rate was the same. He then extrapolated what casualties would be in Iraq. I don't remember the number, but it sounded astoundingly high.
If the casualty rate in Iraq truly is 1 in 10, it ranks it with the Korean War.
Interesting...
Gene
Leading up to the invasion of Iraq, Jeff Greenfield of CNN did an analysis of casualties of the last few wars we have fought. The analysis shoeed that the casualties in WW1 and WW2 were one in 13, in Korea it was 1 in 10, and in Vietnam it was 1 in 13 again. The lesson was that these were four different wars faught in four different theatres and scenarios, but the casualty rate was the same. He then extrapolated what casualties would be in Iraq. I don't remember the number, but it sounded astoundingly high.
If the casualty rate in Iraq truly is 1 in 10, it ranks it with the Korean War.
Interesting...
Gene
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
It sounds plausible to me.
There's only so much exposure to combat that you can bring on before troops burn out (psychologically). This is pretty well documented. And I wouldn't expect that exposure level to change much over time.
Plus on the receiving end, this is as low tech as any of the previous wars that you cited.
A back-of-the-envelope calculation gives us well over 100,000 troops in Iraq right now (many have already gone home), and a little over 10,000 casualties to date (total). That's less than 1 in 10 then. Perhaps closer to 1 in 13.
- Bill
There's only so much exposure to combat that you can bring on before troops burn out (psychologically). This is pretty well documented. And I wouldn't expect that exposure level to change much over time.
Plus on the receiving end, this is as low tech as any of the previous wars that you cited.
A back-of-the-envelope calculation gives us well over 100,000 troops in Iraq right now (many have already gone home), and a little over 10,000 casualties to date (total). That's less than 1 in 10 then. Perhaps closer to 1 in 13.
- Bill
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Yes, good stats Gene. It looks as if a ground war is a ground war is a ground war when it comes to casualties.
Regarding the low supplies of small arms ammo, this is an issue that is being addressed is several ways.
First, it is not at all unusual to purchase weapons and ammo from our allies. The 5.56mm bullet is the NATO standard, and the ability to access the ammo from many sources was one of the reasons for creating NATO standards. That is also true among our allies that are not part of NATO. The old ‘Eastern Bloc’ of Soviet sphere countries still operate in this mode as well.
Besides the 5.56mm, 9mm, the 7.62mm NATO and 50 BMG are standards found throughout nations friendly to us. (Panther: .223 and 5.56 NATO are not the same.)
In addition, our M240 medium machine gun and M249 squad automatic weapon light machine gun are both manufactured by FN of Belgium. The NATO sidearm - Beretta M9 - is Italian. The AT4 light anti-tank weapon is Swedish I believe. Future field rations may come from .............. France!
No question that our stocks of small arms ammo must be rebuilt. Just last year the Army’s Lake City, Missouri plant began an expansion program to triple its output in 2005 to 1 billion rounds. Winchester can also produce 5.56mm NATO if necessary. And a new plant is being brought online in WVa for 50 BMG ammo.
Personally, I do not truly believe there is any extreme emergency. Lake City produced ammo is coveted as the quality is very high and the brass is reloadable many times. At this time any civilian can buy large quantities of Lake City mil spec ammo - 1,000 rounds packed loose in a crate for under $200 delivered. If there was a crisis this ammo would not be available to the public.
The article also said ‘bullets’, not cartridges. The cost leads me to believe we are talking only about the lead projectile only, not a fully assemble cartridge. A civilian can expect to pay $0.20 a round. Taiwan could be feeding the Lake City plant with the 62 grain bullets only. That is not uncommon.
As for other sources, last year Israeli Military Industries was contracted to supply several hundred million rounds of 5.56mm to the US Army and did so. (IMI currently manufacture this round for Winchester. The headstamp has an ‘A’ suffix to denote the difference. It is great ammo and I have a 1,000 round case of it!) Anyway, the Arab world went nuts that the US Army might be killing terrorists or whomever with Israeli bullets and protested to the US! The ever PC part of the US government made the Army bring all of the ‘A’ ammo back home so as not to offend the Arab street. ‘A’ ammo can now only be used for training. Talk about BS! This stuff is shipped loose in crates on pallets and was sent everywhere in the world. To retrieve it was a nightmare. Plus, the ‘A’ is really small and is just hard to find on the end of this small case. UGH!
Some of what Panther said about out diminished capacity to produce ammo can be traced to the Clinton administration. Stocks of ammo were drawn down deliberately and orders for replacements slowed, so only Lake City stay in the business. Also, full capacity magazines were outlawed under Clinton (AlGore cast the tie breaking vote on that one) and manufacturers stopped making them. In a peace time economy the civilian market was the major reason to produce small arms ammo and accessories. When that was shut down, production almost stopped. As a result, even to this day, getting new full capacity magazines for things like the M9 Beretta handgun is very difficult. The ones in use are very worn and highly unreliable. It is a problem not yet solved.
Rich
Regarding the low supplies of small arms ammo, this is an issue that is being addressed is several ways.
First, it is not at all unusual to purchase weapons and ammo from our allies. The 5.56mm bullet is the NATO standard, and the ability to access the ammo from many sources was one of the reasons for creating NATO standards. That is also true among our allies that are not part of NATO. The old ‘Eastern Bloc’ of Soviet sphere countries still operate in this mode as well.
Besides the 5.56mm, 9mm, the 7.62mm NATO and 50 BMG are standards found throughout nations friendly to us. (Panther: .223 and 5.56 NATO are not the same.)
In addition, our M240 medium machine gun and M249 squad automatic weapon light machine gun are both manufactured by FN of Belgium. The NATO sidearm - Beretta M9 - is Italian. The AT4 light anti-tank weapon is Swedish I believe. Future field rations may come from .............. France!
No question that our stocks of small arms ammo must be rebuilt. Just last year the Army’s Lake City, Missouri plant began an expansion program to triple its output in 2005 to 1 billion rounds. Winchester can also produce 5.56mm NATO if necessary. And a new plant is being brought online in WVa for 50 BMG ammo.
Personally, I do not truly believe there is any extreme emergency. Lake City produced ammo is coveted as the quality is very high and the brass is reloadable many times. At this time any civilian can buy large quantities of Lake City mil spec ammo - 1,000 rounds packed loose in a crate for under $200 delivered. If there was a crisis this ammo would not be available to the public.
The article also said ‘bullets’, not cartridges. The cost leads me to believe we are talking only about the lead projectile only, not a fully assemble cartridge. A civilian can expect to pay $0.20 a round. Taiwan could be feeding the Lake City plant with the 62 grain bullets only. That is not uncommon.
As for other sources, last year Israeli Military Industries was contracted to supply several hundred million rounds of 5.56mm to the US Army and did so. (IMI currently manufacture this round for Winchester. The headstamp has an ‘A’ suffix to denote the difference. It is great ammo and I have a 1,000 round case of it!) Anyway, the Arab world went nuts that the US Army might be killing terrorists or whomever with Israeli bullets and protested to the US! The ever PC part of the US government made the Army bring all of the ‘A’ ammo back home so as not to offend the Arab street. ‘A’ ammo can now only be used for training. Talk about BS! This stuff is shipped loose in crates on pallets and was sent everywhere in the world. To retrieve it was a nightmare. Plus, the ‘A’ is really small and is just hard to find on the end of this small case. UGH!
Some of what Panther said about out diminished capacity to produce ammo can be traced to the Clinton administration. Stocks of ammo were drawn down deliberately and orders for replacements slowed, so only Lake City stay in the business. Also, full capacity magazines were outlawed under Clinton (AlGore cast the tie breaking vote on that one) and manufacturers stopped making them. In a peace time economy the civilian market was the major reason to produce small arms ammo and accessories. When that was shut down, production almost stopped. As a result, even to this day, getting new full capacity magazines for things like the M9 Beretta handgun is very difficult. The ones in use are very worn and highly unreliable. It is a problem not yet solved.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
Rich, mon ami, you may not believe this but I actually do know the difference. Suffice it to say "woah be to the moron that tries to fire a true 5.56 NATO round from his/her .223 Remington chambered sporting rifle!" (The differences go beyond a few grains of powder, but the important thing is... Can you say "Ka-boom"? )
However, having said that, we both know that there are many non-gun folks that have heard ".223" but wouldn't really put "5.56 NATO" into context. Soooo, I have erred on the side of general civilian vernacular. My sincere apologies.... I will endeavour to be more exact when discussing firearms, since it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart... well... actually my hip.
BTW, there is a similar problem, but doesn't seem to have caused the same amount of concern, with interchanging .308 & 7.62X51... As you note,
the 7.62 NATO is different.
I don't have any true 5.56 NATO around... and incidently there's also a difference between regular, civilian available 5.56 ball ammo and true 5.56 NATO ball ammo. This also causes confusion because the regular 5.56 ball (NOT NATO) with the exception of some depth of chambering tolerances may be able to be interchanged with .223 because this regular 5.56 ball isn't loaded +P+ EVER... wouldn't hold up... cheaper stuff... lots of places sell that as "surplus", but it's really just a cheap reload with .223 primers and some well-worn 5.56 casings. IOW, I consider it junk. It often is cheaper than dirt, shoots about as good, and is a waste of time, effort & mullah. Had a friend buy some... Out of the 1/2 case he got (for ~.10/rd) nearly a third had problems... from jamming/feeding to misfires/misloads. That's just too scary for the supposed "savings". We both order ours specifically. I have one rifle that absolutely ***** using 55 gr bullets, is "acceptable" using 63-64 gr bullets, but will drive tacks at 200 yds with 68-69 gr bullets! Sooooo, they cost me a lot more, but guess which ones I order. I have some of the others for "plinking", but when I really want to get in the zone, you KNOW which boxes I grab. I have another rifle that shoots about the saem with any of them... naturally, that gets feed the "cheap" stuff that I get from my local dealer. And as always, (someday I'll get the time and get everything setup again) there's nothing quite like tweaking the right handloads and tuning down the accuracy... It's such a sweet feeling to load the right boattail bullet, right powder amount for juuuuust enough umph, and look through the spotting scope at a 5 rd group at 200 yds that you can cover with a dime! Hoo-Yah! It's been WAAAY too long!
) However, having said that, we both know that there are many non-gun folks that have heard ".223" but wouldn't really put "5.56 NATO" into context. Soooo, I have erred on the side of general civilian vernacular. My sincere apologies.... I will endeavour to be more exact when discussing firearms, since it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart... well... actually my hip.
BTW, there is a similar problem, but doesn't seem to have caused the same amount of concern, with interchanging .308 & 7.62X51... As you note,
the 7.62 NATO is different.
I don't have any true 5.56 NATO around... and incidently there's also a difference between regular, civilian available 5.56 ball ammo and true 5.56 NATO ball ammo. This also causes confusion because the regular 5.56 ball (NOT NATO) with the exception of some depth of chambering tolerances may be able to be interchanged with .223 because this regular 5.56 ball isn't loaded +P+ EVER... wouldn't hold up... cheaper stuff... lots of places sell that as "surplus", but it's really just a cheap reload with .223 primers and some well-worn 5.56 casings. IOW, I consider it junk. It often is cheaper than dirt, shoots about as good, and is a waste of time, effort & mullah. Had a friend buy some... Out of the 1/2 case he got (for ~.10/rd) nearly a third had problems... from jamming/feeding to misfires/misloads. That's just too scary for the supposed "savings". We both order ours specifically. I have one rifle that absolutely ***** using 55 gr bullets, is "acceptable" using 63-64 gr bullets, but will drive tacks at 200 yds with 68-69 gr bullets! Sooooo, they cost me a lot more, but guess which ones I order. I have some of the others for "plinking", but when I really want to get in the zone, you KNOW which boxes I grab.
I have another rifle that shoots about the saem with any of them... naturally, that gets feed the "cheap" stuff that I get from my local dealer. And as always, (someday I'll get the time and get everything setup again) there's nothing quite like tweaking the right handloads and tuning down the accuracy... It's such a sweet feeling to load the right boattail bullet, right powder amount for juuuuust enough umph, and look through the spotting scope at a 5 rd group at 200 yds that you can cover with a dime! Hoo-Yah! It's been WAAAY too long!Thanx guys.
That info was informative and educational as well about both the casualty rate and two popular rifle cartidge sizes.
I remember firing and reloading 7.62 years back when I was active. I had a batch that the powder from the original batch fired dirty, the cases, although brass, seemed as tough as steel -- and split after a few firings, and the original primers were tough to punch out.
That info was informative and educational as well about both the casualty rate and two popular rifle cartidge sizes.
I remember firing and reloading 7.62 years back when I was active. I had a batch that the powder from the original batch fired dirty, the cases, although brass, seemed as tough as steel -- and split after a few firings, and the original primers were tough to punch out.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Panther said: "BTW, there is a similar problem, but doesn't seem to have caused the same amount of concern, with interchanging .308 & 7.62X51... As you note,
the 7.62 NATO is different."
The headspace/chamber dimension for 7.62 is .004" longer than the dimension for .308. "GO" for .308 is 1.630" while it is 1.634" for 7.62 NATO. What that means is that if you have a really tight .308 chamber and shove in a 7.62mm round that is at the high end of the spec length - say 1.638", the resulting chamber pressure could create the dreaded 'KABOOM'.
In reality, NATO ammo tends to be closer to the low end of the spec, and in anything but a match rifle the .308 chamber would be at least over 1.632. So, usually no problems.
The same situation occurs with .223 versus 5.56mm NATO.
Now, for the uninitiated, if you have a long NATO headspace chamber, and use cheap civilian spec brass, then you get a case split and 'KABOOM'. Not as bad as an over pressure barrel 'KABOOM', but still potentially lethal.
I own top grade headspace gauges for my mil spec rifles and check them to be certain there will be no 'KABOOMS'.
Rich
the 7.62 NATO is different."
The headspace/chamber dimension for 7.62 is .004" longer than the dimension for .308. "GO" for .308 is 1.630" while it is 1.634" for 7.62 NATO. What that means is that if you have a really tight .308 chamber and shove in a 7.62mm round that is at the high end of the spec length - say 1.638", the resulting chamber pressure could create the dreaded 'KABOOM'.
In reality, NATO ammo tends to be closer to the low end of the spec, and in anything but a match rifle the .308 chamber would be at least over 1.632. So, usually no problems.
The same situation occurs with .223 versus 5.56mm NATO.
Now, for the uninitiated, if you have a long NATO headspace chamber, and use cheap civilian spec brass, then you get a case split and 'KABOOM'. Not as bad as an over pressure barrel 'KABOOM', but still potentially lethal.
I own top grade headspace gauges for my mil spec rifles and check them to be certain there will be no 'KABOOMS'.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
