contrary to popular belief

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contrary to popular belief

Post by mikemurphy »

Well, enough of this feel good stuff from Rich and Bill sensei. A friend of mine just got home from serving a tour in Iraq for the USMC (his family just picked him up Lajoune (sp?)).

Anyway, I couldn't wait to hear his story as I know he was very "gung prostitute" when he left. He told me all the same kind of war stories that come out of every war I'm sure. For example, his having to kill Iraqis who were sleeping in a house without warning because they were afraid of who might be hiding under one of the blankets. Or, the killing by his own two hands of a family or five with a bazooka because they wouldn't leave their house. This included three children. There is more, but I'm sure you all get the picture.

I feel real bad for him because he tells me that he, or any of his company, get a good night sleeps anymore, even as they are back home. The nightmares, he's told, could be with him for a long time. But, once again, contrary to the popular belief that some people may have others believe, he tells me that most of the people he works with do their job there because it is their job, but they don't have any "doubt that this is a war about President Bush and his oil buddies. These people just want to be left alone for the most part."

Now you can take what you want out of this, but this is a side of the conflict which is out there on a much larger scale than the government (and others) want you to think.

Guard up!! :-)

mike
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Post by RACastanet »

"Lajoune (sp?)"

Lejeune is the correct spelling.

I'm open to inputs. Come March I'll have a lot of firsthand accounts to report.

Mike: Why do you feel it necessary to report doom and gloom?

Rich
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike

No surprises. Politics are politics and you will find what your eyes seek. But... You obviously have not read either of Lt. Col Dave Grossman's books.

IMO, On Killing and On Combat should be required reading for all Uechika before they get their black belt. Period. End of story. This is a gentleman, Mike, whose job it is to train our troops, our guards, and our LEOs for the real deal, and he tells it like it is.

Before you think you have a corner on the way the world is and think we all are ignorant, at least read On Killing. I've found it available in every single bookstore I've gone to in the past few years, and have started requiring my students to get it. After you read On Killing, then come back and have this conversation with us.

BTW, there was a thread I started on my forum about a NEJM article which discussed some of these PTSD issues from both Afghanistan and Iraq. (I'll see if I can find it, and post the link.) If you read the questionnaires given to these servicemen pre and post conflict, you see the ugly details of war that they queried about. War ***** - period. And what's worse, this enemy that the U.S. is fighting can and does hide behind civilians like the bloody cowards that they are. That's not on our shoulders, sir. In such situations, I want my boys home first. Everything else is style points. And the civilian caualties caused by enemy hiding and attacking tactics are because of THEIR terrorist nature. Sorry if you don't like the sound of that, but research shows just how bad the details are.

Meanwhile, take that Marine out for supper somewhere and/or buy him a beer. Next time I see you, I'll reimburse you. And tell him there's someone out there who is proud of his accomplishments, and will gladly offer him a shoulder.

- Bill

P.S. On Combat is still quite difficult to get. I ended up getting 2 autographed copies, thanks to Andrew. 8)
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike

Read this thread.

The aftermath of war

You've got your work cut out for you, sir.

Thanks for the fruitful discussion. You know that you always have my respect.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

chutzpah

n : (Yiddish) unbelievable gall; insolence; audacity [syn: chutzpa, hutzpah]
- Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

One example of chutzpah in my dictionary at work is a man who kills his parents and then pleads hardship at his trial because he is an orphan.

Another example might be someone who drives an SUV and then complains that
Mike wrote:this is a war about President Bush and his oil buddies.
Something to think about...

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Bill is right on target with his first post. The Marines in particular have a huge network for their Marine family. It includes the Key Volunteer Network thru the Marine Corps League. Some may choose to not participate in the support offered but it is there.

Also, the Martial Arts Program is used to educate and debrief Marines on the results of intense combat. The Trainers are schooled in the area to know what to look for. This includes suicide awareness programs to financial and relationship counseling.

Here is a partial list of former Marines and other specialists used in the program:

Jack Hoban- Mental/Character Speaker; Technique Enhancements
John Lanota- Behavioral Science Unit/Killology
Steve Ban- Behavioral Science Unit/Killology
Bill Hayes- (Ret) Ethics/Character Development

As Bill suggested, be a friend to your Marine. Accentuate the positive. Acknowledge the negatives if war. That is the best way to help him decompress.

Rich
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Post by Panther »

Rich will have some new "firsthand" news in March... Mine has been two ways... I'll have firsthand one-on-one news in May. I also have other contacts that are "in the thick of it" who I email with... that is, when they get to a place where they have email access. Got worried watching the Saturday evening news last night because one contact is right where those
insurgents caused casualties... Got an email from him that said he was OK... His words were that his team was fortunate because their insurgents weren't very good shots and they were able to "open a can of whoop-@$$ on them"...
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Post by benzocaine »

We all know it's no picnic over there.

Even the people who work in the healthcare end of things have it pretty rough.

Last year I read a letter from a nurse (which was posted in one of our ICU) where she describes a typical day in Iraq.

At the time of writing she had not had a day off in over a month, and each day was a 12 hour shift. Ech day is filled with injured soldiers most hurt by IED's (improvised explosive devices). At the end or begining of each day the have all the manditory PT as well. Oh.. and of course they too are in "harms way". STRESS!

I work 12 hour shifts, and let me tell everyone I only work 3 or four a week. The idea of a month of straight 12 hour shifts is boggeling. Poor kids :(
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iraq

Post by mikemurphy »

Bill sensei & others:

First of all, the suggestion of taking him out for a beer and a bite has been taken care of. That was a given. He'll get any and all the suppor I can give him whenever he wishes.

Rich,

I would love to here the first-hand accounts, as that's where the real story comes out, at least in my opinion. As for reporting the doom and gloom, I guess I would have to ask you why you guys feel it's necessary to dismiss the truth? You wish to take what the gov't dishes whenever it supports your beliefs, but as soon as something comes out contrary to those beliefs, you dismiss it. Right Bill? We could get into the WMD topic, but you simply refuse to listen to what the rest of the world hears from our beloved president.

But honestly, war is ugly, and "War is Hell!" as Gen. Sherman so aptly stated. Why are the pro-Iraq war people so afraid to hear that it may not be as popular as you believe? We just had an old student at the school I teach die over there and the community is kind of overwhelmed. I can tell you right now that many people here are changing their minds about what we are doing there.

But anyway, that is an argument that neither of us will win, it's simply the truth about war. As for reading, I will get to that article Bill as soon as I can, but if you are looking for a couple of good books to read about the common, everyday soldier and his experiences, try "Citizen Soldier" (Stephen Ambrose I think), or even go back to "Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo. Off the top of my head, they are two no-nonsense accounts of what war is like.

thanks,

mike
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike wrote:As for reporting the doom and gloom, I guess I would have to ask you why you guys feel it's necessary to dismiss the truth? You wish to take what the gov't dishes whenever it supports your beliefs, but as soon as something comes out contrary to those beliefs, you dismiss it. Right Bill?
Michael, Michael, Michael...

* Van and I read On Killing and discuss details of the post traumatic horrors of war based on Grossman's new science of "killology."

* I start a thread that leads people through a discussion of a peer-reviewed article in the literature about the aftermath of war specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq.

* I start another thread on Van's forum discussing the difficulties of fighting in Fallujah where the enemy is hiding in mosques and schools, and boobytrapping injured insurgents. In it I am discussing a film of a soldier who appears to kill a wounded insurgent without provocation.

Then you come back months later after a discussion with a dedicated Marine back from combat hell, tell us about it, and are convinced you've stumbled on something we haven't and/or we are in denial?

It's not going to fly, Michael.

Yes, I read Ambrose.

Now... Read Grossman's book, and then read the New England Journal of Medicine article I cited. Then come back and tell me we are "dismissing the truth."

If you are pro Massachusettes and like Kennedy and Kerry, well say so and be done with it. If you don't care for Bush, fine. But don't distort the facts, particularly when there's evidence of our understanding all over these forums. Don't you ever drop by mine and read?

And what really matters is the following.

1) These young men and women who sacrifice so much deserve our support. Read Grossman to see how important that is.

2) We need to understand that the enemy we are fighting is holding humanity hostage. And our own soldiers acting in the best interest of both themselves and their country are becoming psychological casualties.

3) We are woefully inadequate in training our black belts if any of this seems new.

- Bill
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Killology

Post by Norm Abrahamson »

Rich,

Is "killology" the study of killing? Something else?

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Norm

If I may...
KILLOLOGY, (n): The scholarly study of the destructive act, just as sexology is the scholarly study of the procreative act. In particular, killology focuses on the reactions of healthy people in killing circumstances (such as police and military in combat) and the factors that enable and restrain killing in these situations. This field of study was pioneered by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, in his Pulitzer-nominated book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.
See Killology Research Group.

The more you read about this topic (and the more you realize that there are generations of study in the field) the more you become aware that the vast majority of dojo warriors have no idea what they are talking about when they think they are ready either for the act of combat or the aftermath. Thankfully a good amount of careful peer-reviewed work is being done in the field.

I repeat, this is a MUST field of research for every black belt. You can't possibly understand why this is so important until you take the initiative and do a little bit of work.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RACastanet »

Norm: The subject of killology is more than just killing and cannot be described in a few words. The book Bill referred to - On Killing - covers the subject thoroghly. It is a good read and explains the subject in detail. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Borders etc all have it available.

Rich
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Post by Norm Abrahamson »

Bill and Rich,

Thanks for the reply. I haven't read the book yet, I'll put it on my to do list.

In the meantime, does the author differentiate between a "civilian" killing someone in self defense, and a soldier or police officer killing in the line of duty?

My intuition tells me it would be more difficult to live with killing somebody because it was part of the job description, especially if that person wasn't a direct threat to me at that moment, than it would be to kill somebody "in the heat of the moment" to protect myself or a loved one.

If I had to kill someone because of a curfew violation or a inability to communicate clearly, I think I would have nightmares, depression and many of the other symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Norm

Check my corrected post above.

- Bill
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