Friends don't let stupid friends drive SUVs

[RACastanet]

"These stats don't jive with those from NHTSA, Rich. So whose data are bad?"

I do not believe either is bad, they are an apples and oranges comparison. They are looking at different things. My stats are for all crashes, yours are single vehicle only. That completely eliminates head-ons, side, and other multi vehicle crashes.

The way NHTS cuts the data it supports your rollover focus but missed out on the majority of accidents. I repeat: NOT ALL ACCIDENTS ARE SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVERS!

The data is just numbers whether you get them from NHTSA or the Insurance Institute. Just comparre apples to apples and look at the sample base.


"As for all those BMWs you like to gripe about, Rich, well.. If you drove a real car, you too could drive safer at higher speeds... Don't knock what you haven't tried. Don't impose stupid U.S. traffic law mindset on the world. If you got rid of your German car predjudice and took the time to learn about BMW body design, you'd see why Consumer Reports loves them"

I do not have an anti German bias. I am just not enamored by the hype of overpriced, high maintenance, low reliability vehicles. As for a real car , I will put my 1987 Corvette technology up against the current BMWs for speed, handling (.90+ G cornering), accelleration, braking, maintenance, reliability any day. Ever drive a real US sports car Bill?

I read many car magazines as well, and what I see is that BMW and Mercedes and VW and Audi are living on their reputations when it come to quality and reliability. Go read the J D Powers reports. Mercedes and Audi are making some progress but lag behind even Buick and Chevrolet. It is nice that they push the technology, but at the price of cost and reliability.

I am still waiting to see you step up to the bar and actually own one. I believe that if your were laying out the kind of cash the nameplates demand, and then had to put up with the poor reliability and shop time required you'd be back to reality soon. just when are you getting a superior German car Bill?

[Bill Glasheen]

You're the one in the BMW-bashing mode, Rich. You brought it up. I'm merely pointing out the obvious. BMWs go fast on the road because they can - safely. It's all about the weight distribution (50/50), the suspension, the tightly-built body, the steering response, etc.

As for your Corvette, well I cannot take the kids to school in a Corvette. I'm one seat short. Nice try... If you want to compare vehicles, my Suzuki 750 would have left you in the dust on most any test except for maybe collision. But again...can't take the kids to school. It's a non-issue.

As for price, well that's because the dollar is badly devalued w.r.t. every currency today. We are living on the good graces of others. Yesterday, South Korea sent us some bad news about their investment in dollars, and both the stock market and dollar took a nasty hit.

This is why I'm looking at the Daimler Chrysler line. By getting Euro-American technology built on this side of the pond, I get the technology without the German price tag. That's just good business sense.

Meanwhile, my own purchasing decisions of late have been 3 Nissan award-winning engines and a Subaru award-winning boxer engine and car/SUV configuration. We're talking both value and reliability. And I'm not talking about ass-in-the-air stupidity.

But my next vehicle is the issue. I want/need AWD with capability and value. One of the two drivers is an "essential" healthcare worker, and I drive the kids to schools that don't close in bad weather (unlike the public variety). Sorry, but the 'Vette isn't a consideration. Neither are any more Japanese motorcycles.

As it stands - and this will change when "the time" comes - the Dodge Magnum RT AWD (with variable cylinder hemi) is the choice. Good performance, good economy, good value, good room, and good looks.

We shall see... I'm trying to get this POS van (with a decent engine) through this one more snow storm tomorrow.

As for the stats on single vehicle crashes, well it's a fair consideration, don't you think? What does it tell us if a Chevy Suburban survived a crash with a Toyota Celica? It tells me that the Suburban driver should be liable for the carnage they caused. Again, if you're going to penalize speed - as you seem to want to do - then penalize other obvious causes of morbidity and mortality. This is particularly true when it is inflicted on others for one's own benefit.

And it's maddening when people make unsafe choices (riding high) in the name of safety. That WAS the topic of this thread after all...

- Bill

[RACastanet]

". Again, if you're going to penalize speed - as you seem to want to do "

No, I like to go fast. And I do. I really love acceleration more than speed though. If allowed, I'd drive 100+ mph on 95. I'd be at Quantico in well under an hour. Also really enjoy twisty and mountainous back roads.

"As for the stats on single vehicle crashes, well it's a fair consideration, don't you think?"

It is a consideration, but it ignores the other 80% of the crashes.

"What does it tell us if a Chevy Suburban survived a crash with a Toyota Celica?"

Believe it or not, SUVs do not attack other vehicles on purpose. Suppose the Celica crossed the center line and hit the Suburban. Is it then unfair that the Celica gets squashed and the Suburban passengers survive? Or how about a Celica pulling out in front of an SUV causing a side impact. If you read the paper you will see just those circumstanses occuring recently. No, I see no need to downsize to make it 'fair'.

"And it's maddening when people make unsafe choices (riding high) in the name of safety"

You are assuming people buy SUVs because they ride high (though I agree some do). I do not believe that to be the general case. People buy SUVs because they are large and comfortable vehicles that just happen to have higher ground clearance.

Regarding BMW bashing, I'll be visiting Quantico most of next week and I'll do a rough count of the types of cars that have aggressive drivers. For whatever reason though, it seems BMW drivers are the most memorable.


Rich

[Van Canna]

Land Rover L3

[Van Canna]

[Bill Glasheen]

Those Range Rovers had some pretty nasty safety statistics. And you're lucky to keep one running; they rank near the bottom in reliability. I don't know why people buy the darned things.

As for SUV of the year, well... Time magazine has had fascists as "Person of the Year." A typical SUV - of which this is one - is a typical SUV. Fine off road...where it belongs. OK if you live in the boonies and it snows. But Southern California? Virginia? I don't think so...

How's your Mini or Acura going to fair in a crash with one of those?

No, I like to go fast. And I do. I really love acceleration more than speed though. If allowed, I'd drive 100+ mph on 95. I'd be at Quantico in well under an hour. Also really enjoy twisty and mountainous back roads.

Music to my ears...

Believe it or not, SUVs do not attack other vehicles on purpose. Suppose the Celica crossed the center line and hit the Suburban. Is it then unfair that the Celica gets squashed and the Suburban passengers survive? Or how about a Celica pulling out in front of an SUV causing a side impact. If you read the paper you will see just those circumstanses occuring recently.

Oh please, Rich. Good SUV drivers; bad Celica drivers. Yea, right...

I see no need to downsize to make it 'fair'.

Hey, if you support my desire to drive in the states at Autobann speeds, then I'll support your right to drive a tank. Otherwise - as I said - fair is fair. Why should I be dinged for driving fast if you're sharing the road with me in something twice as heavy as it needs to be? (Driving by yourself, might I add...)

You are assuming people buy SUVs because they ride high (though I agree some do). I do not believe that to be the general case. People buy SUVs because they are large and comfortable vehicles that just happen to have higher ground clearance.

Marketing data show otherwise, Rich. That's why engineers have been engaging in all kinds of trickery to get that "up in the air" feeling in vehicles with lower centers of gravity. It's in the automotive press if you care to follow.

And as Ian alluded to, it's a higher-than-thou game. One person stands up in a stadium, and everyone feels a need to stand up for visibility. Try driving a smaller rental car for business as I do (to save money). I understand that claustrophobic feel, even though it doesn't bother me so much. I'd rather have the maneuverability.

For whatever reason though, it seems BMW drivers are the most memorable.

Again, because they can - and you can't.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Hey Van!

Here's a vehicle that

* comes in AWD like that Range thingie

* has more power and torque

* is lighter

* faster

* more maneuverable

* more room inside for the passengers

* looks better (looks badder... )

* costs half as much

* is much more efficient

* has German-American engineering

* is built in Mexico/US/Canada

and won't run over your Mini in a fender bender.



What's not to like about that kind of thinking?

- Bill

[Panther]

Say it ain't so, Panther!

Are you referring to my "slow-thinkin' brother-in-law" or my owning a Tahoe? If it's the brother-in-law, well... you can tell why I call him "slow thinkin'". If it's the Yukon, well... from the street to the house where I park the car is up-hill, unpaved, and nearly 1/2 a mile on the odometer... I can't afford the eurohype-SUVs that some love and in fact, I keep a heavy-duty pull-chain in the back of the Yukon because I've used it to pull Benz, Audi, VW SUVs and a F.O.R.D. (appreciation for the acronym noted) out of snowbanks, just this winter! The Tahoe my slow-thinkin' brother-in-law was driving made it out under it's own power as soon as someone with a brain (yours truly) got behind the wheel!

As MikeK noted, there are way too many folks that get an SUV (or any 4X4) for the "status" symbol of it... and they don't use it properly, don't know how to, and certainly don't need it.

Another data point for you... I have a dear friend who's wife was driving home in the late 90s in her Plymouth Sundance with their teenaged daughter. She was rearended by a lifted Toyota pickup. It was a traffic jam, she was stopped on the highway with no place to go and the pickup driver was doing ~70 and not paying attention. They gave her the last rites that night in the hospital, but miraculously she pulled through. She's still going through counselling for the PTSD she still suffers. Daughter had broken legs, ribs and one arm, but is fine now. Soooooo... my friend does his investigation and decides that Volvo makes the safest cars. Even though he couldn't afford one, he sold things and borrowed and that's what he bought his lovely wife. She's been safe in the FOUR single car accidents she's had since then! Each one was in the same conditions. He told me a couple of years ago that she just simply doesn't drive in the snow anymore at all because as unbelieveable as it may seem, Volvos are really safe from a crash perspective, but they REALLY stink in the snow. He was shocked with that given where Volvos come from, but he said that even the dealer admitted it to him. So, even though his wife still has a Volvo (which she doesn't drive in the snow), he sold the second Volvo that he'd bought for himself and bought... you guessed it, an SUV. Oh well...

I really would like a hybrid powered SUV and from what I've heard some are coming out soon, but I'll wait a couple of years for them to get the kinks out. Anyway, when you and Rich donate a nice place for me to live near Virginia Beach, I won't need an SUV anymore! Then I'll just cruise around in my 68 AMX with the modernized suspension... or maybe I'll drive the classic 63 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham that my Grandfather willed to my mom and she's given to me. They guzzle the gas, but what class! Better than any stupid Benz that rides like a truck! I checked the Dodge hemi station wagon you posted last year and it wasn't cheap by any means... I'd think about it, but if I'd like to see about getting a hybrid for my next car... ummmm... SUV.

And, unfortunately, I seem to run into the same folks that Rich does... seems that Benzes, BMWs and Audis think they own the road around some areas. I just try to avoid driving in those areas any more. Much better on the BP. Besides, I have the perfect solution for gas guzzling woes... Move really far south where you can ride the Harley all year round! I get ~40mpg on that, fully-loaded with the lovely wife warming my back!

[RACastanet]

"Those Range Rovers had some pretty nasty safety statistics. And you're lucky to keep one running; they rank near the bottom in reliability. I don't know why people buy the darned things."

Selecting a RR really surprised me. Not a good track record at all.

"Again, because they can - and you can't."

Oh,but I can, and you can't!



I take great pleasure, when appropriate, in showing the 'elite' drivers what bug cubes can do. While they wait for their high tech, multi valve, turbocharged engines to wind up I run right by them and smile into my rear view mirror. Heh heh.

"Hey, if you support my desire to drive in the states at Autobann speeds"

You can go as fast as you want! I do not really care.

"(Driving by yourself, might I add...)"

Very rare. Less than 10% of my Tahoe driving.

"Oh please, Rich. Good SUV drivers; bad Celica drivers. Yea, right... "

Read this... Beware the Mininvan:

Richmond Times-Dispatch
Tuesday, February 22, 2005


Four people were injured, two critically, when a car and a minivan collided yesterday in the 19300 block of Hull Street Road in Chesterfield County.


The driver and a passenger in the car were taken to VCU Medical Center with life-threatening injuries, police said. The driver and a passenger in the minivan were taken to CJW Medical Center with nonlife-threatening injuries.

Although the crash remains under investigation, police said it occurred about 12:35 p.m. when the car pulled into the path of the minivan, which was traveling east on Hull Street Road.

We need to ban minivns and their crazy drivers.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Panther

Now you're talking. Economy with style!



As for the "Say it ain't so," well a certain someone I know owns a Tahoe.

They tend to do near the bottom of the pack in off-road tests. Not sure why people like them so much, or what the point is.

But if the customer wants tail fins on their car...



- Bill

[RACastanet]

"They tend to do near the bottom of the pack in off-road tests."

Where did you get that? Off Road magazine made the Tahoe a top pick in 2000. Motor Trend ranked it high as well. The design is now a little long in the tooth but is still quite good. I'll have to look around to see if I still have that copy.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh,but I can, and you can't!

But I have! And faster than that Chevy. Ever been down Rt-29 south of C-ville at xxx mph? So fast that you disintegrated a poor bat that got in the path of your helmet? Ever scraped your centerstand all the way around a hairpin turn on Rt-60 inbetween Virginia and West Virginia?

But that Chevy won't carry any more than my motorcycle could, and it isn't as fast. That's the point. Those BMWs are zooming around you in numbers because they are practical as well as fast.

So, one data point now = bad minivan drivers, eh? You want the government to intervene, eh? You must be one of them there Commies...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

It was reported in the national news, Rich. They made a list. My favored VW Touareg made the top 10, but was not number 1. And your Tahoe was near the bottom.

This is in OFF ROAD capabilities.

GM reps responded to the study with some talk about comfort and customer preferences and such.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

By the way, this one-upmanship is for sport, and is way off track here.

Certainly I wouldn't turn down another garage with a 'Vette and an MGB in it.

But we are still left with folks driving vehicles that don't do what they need them to do, or perform like they think they do. And this happens to be at their peril, as well as endangering others.

But...



Taste is a very personal thing... It often has nothing to do with logic.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

"By the way, this one-upmanship is for sport,"

This is true.

"and it isn't as fast."

I do not know about that but do not plan to test it. However, I know it it will hit 100mph in 2nd gear so has a lot left. One of the collector's guides I have puts the top end at 175mph. The engine in mine is the aluminum head version with roller bearing rockers in the valve train so it is a high output variety. But, I do not plan to push it that far!

Rich