Friends don't let stupid friends drive SUVs

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MikeK
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Friends don't let stupid friends drive SUVs

Post by MikeK »

I don't care much for SUVs and I don't think most people need one, but when I read this I had to shake my head. These people seem to be displacing their lack of safety smarts onto the SUV. Very sad and horrible story.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longi ... ge-big-pix
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longi ... ge-big-pix
Tragedies spark push for vehicle-safety reform

BY JENNIFER SINCO KELLEHER
STAFF WRITER

It may be hard for anyone to fully comprehend the pain of a parent whose child has been run over, especially if the parent or another close relative was the driver.

But Greg and Leslie Gulbransen can. And Matthew and Lisa Cavallaro. And Bill and Adriann Nelson.

All three families were sharing the grief of a Bellport man Monday after hearing that he had run over his 2-year-old son, a reminder of how they had lost their children.

In October 2002, Gulbransen backed over his 2-year-old son with a sport utility vehicle. In April last year, a close relative backed over 16-month-old Alec Nelson, again with an SUV. Matthew Cavallaro was also driving one when he backed over his 2-year-old daughter two months later.

All three children were killed.

The families say they know what Robert Palange must have been feeling soon after backing over his son, Bobby, Monday morning, leaving him critically injured.

"He's completely devastated," Gulbransen, of Syosset, said. "This is just the worst, shocking time right now. I can feel his sense of guilt."

Alec's father, Bill Nelson, of Dix Hills, said he and his wife feel compelled to write Palange and his family a letter, sharing some of their personal coping methods. They asked that the elderly and grief-stricken relative who hit their son not be identified.

Lisa Cavallaro of Carle Place wants desperately to tell Palange the pain will ease. But as it's been just eight months since her daughter, Agatha, died, "I can't tell them it will be better, because it won't," she said. "I don't know what comfort I can be to anybody because I'm still in pain."

The Gulbransens, Nelsons and Cavallaros now share a passion for fighting to make vehicles safer for children and educating the public about SUV dangers.

Gulbransen travels often to Washington, D.C., talking to politicians and committees about the Cameron Gulbransen Kids and Cars Safety Act, named after his son and introduced by Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford). The bill aims to make safety devices, such as video cameras on the backs of SUVs, a requirement for the auto industry.

Hearing about Bobby Palange didn't throw Gulbransen back into the throes of sadness and guilt, as it did when he heard about Agatha Cavallaro. Time has helped, he said, but he also finds strength in pushing to effect policy change.

"We're at the point where we're continuing forward, we are being positive," he said. "It doesn't drag me down. It just reinforces the fact that we need to work harder."

The Nelsons are planning a 4-mile race in April to remember Alec and raise funds for various support agencies, including Kids And Cars, a national nonprofit group that tracks non-traffic-related accidents involving children.

Janette Fennell, founder of the Kansas-based group, said there have been nine back-over deaths across the country so far this year. But because there are no government agencies devoted to tracking such deaths, Fennell said, it's possible the number is higher.

Lisa Cavallaro said she wants to see cameras become standard on all SUVs. "I think it should be a law and not just an optional thing," she said.

The Nelsons, Gulbransens and Lisa Cavallaro met for the first time in November during a charity event for Kids And Cars in Upper Brookville that raised about $60,000. They say meeting each other helped see they are not alone in their grief. On Sunday, the Gulbransens and the Nelsons had lunch.

"We clicked right away," Lisa Cavallaro said of meeting the other families. She and Adriann Nelson were both expecting new babies -- a sign, they say, that shows them there is reason to move on, while keeping the memories of Agatha and Alec alive. Cavallaro is due next month and Nelson could give birth any day.

Copyright © 2005, Newsday, Inc.
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Mark Weitz
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Post by Mark Weitz »

These people seem to be displacing their lack of safety smarts onto the SUV.
I agree and have to wonder, there are many large vehicles - panel vans (including those without rear window), pick-ups, mini-vans, etc. where something similar could happen. It's the driver, not the vehicle, in my opinion. I check around my mini-van - I have a 3.5 month old and 5.5 year old and tons of kids on both sides of me - to make sure there aren't children playing near look to see if there are children riding bikes or whatever in my direction. This is really simple. Fact is, many don't do this simple check.

Of course it's horribly tragic and I don't want to add insult to injury with these folks but... check around your car.

Is it just me? Really, this isn't an SUV issue.

Mark
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Boy, this one hits me on many fronts.

First, many know there is no love lost between me and the SUV industry. Why?

* People buy them thinking they are safer being way up high like that. As it turns out, their stupidity isn't just a matter of selfishness. A vehicle with a high COG is likely to flip in a typical emergency avoidance maneuver, and rollovers are probably the single most important cause of vehicle fatalities.

* Yes, they ARE a danger to others on the road. Duh!!!!

* Nobody likes trying to see around someone else's fat ass. This goes for driving on the road as well. They are a hazard to road visibility.

* They eat gas like there is no tomorrow. The money it takes to feed the things funds terrorism. (Sorry, Rich, you can't convince me otherwise. Facts are facts. A carload of fertilizer can indeed do damage, but 90% of our concerns here are caused by economic issues in the Middle East. Hatemongers with money are very dangerous.)

HOWEVER....
Lisa Cavallaro said she wants to see cameras become standard on all SUVs. "I think it should be a law and not just an optional thing," she said.
Sigh...

Why put money into a piece of crap? This just enables a bad idea. People don't need to be way up in the air like that where they are a danger to themselves and everyone else around them. The fundamental concept is completely idiotic.

Don't try to convince me that a soccer mom needs to drive across the Mohave desert, or do offroading on rocky terrain. Ground clearance is not the issue here. And if it was, there is air suspension technology to deal with the temporary need thereof. Right Rich? ;)

Furthermore...

The last thing we need is more idiotic legislation.

Shame the idiots and the industry into a better idea. And hold SUV drivers accountable when they kill people - even if their own family members. These parents should be in jail; that's a start. They chose to drive up in the air like that. Involuntary manslaughter sounds good to me. That should get some peoples' attention.

Don't get me started... :evil:

- Bill

P.S. Too late on that account...
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Post by Guest »

Tragic accidents, it would be tough to deal with killing your child…or any child.

But talk about a knee jerk reaction. Nine boneheads don’t know how to drive a truck and kill nine kids. So now we get the SUV back lash “truck bad, man good!”

Install all the expensive bells and whistles, yes a camera on every bumper and a television screen on every dash. Wait a minute what if little Johnny has already crawled under the truck to get his ball, the bumper cam won’t pick him up!

No problem we just install a few extra cameras under the frame and put in a split screen monitor in the instrument panel. Little Johnny will be safe now, assuming that the driver checks the monitor, keeps the camera lens clean free from dirt snow ice and dead bugs etc. Though I don’t think we can expect the three piece crowd to crawl under the frame and clean a camera lense. :roll:

On the other hand why not train drivers of vehicles to physically check their blind spot before turning the engine over. We don’t need more gizmo’s on our vehicles we just need better driving habits. SUV’s are not inherently bad, but some drivers are.

Almost every commercial vehicle on the road has a blind spot on the rear end big enough to hide the family car. Drivers walk around their vehicles before they start them. Those kids didn’t die because daddy bought an evil SUV, those kids are dead because daddy was in to big of a hurry to operate the equipment safely.
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Post by Guest »

Who lets their kids play in driveways ?
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

Is it just me? Really, this isn't an SUV issue.
Exactly Mark, it's a responsibility issue. I drive a Camry and a Grand Prix and when I'm backing out of the garage I open the big door and look around for kids. If some are around I have one of my boys stand where I can see him and have him watch for little ones, or if alone I open a window so I can hear better and back out realy, realy slow. When my kids were younger I made them stand where I could see them. No see um, no move.

I drove a big assed company van for years and never had a mishap. But we were trained and had to pass a safety exam before hauling around executives in the executive van or classified equipment in the GMCs. I think anybody wanting to drive a big ass SUV should attend mandatory safety training for their vehicle. But that once again put the responsibilty for their actions on them and not a little device.
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

Like it or not, on balance SUVs as a class are safer than the average vehicle. Yes, they are prone to rollover, but most accidents (by a wide percentage) are not roll overs, they are are head on, side, rear or at some oblique angle. And if occupants wore their seat belts roll over fatalities would drop significantly as most roll over fatalities occur when the occupants are ejected from the vehicle.

Plus, if you are on Int 95 the idiots in their BMWs etc going 90 will literally blow you off the road with their wild driving behavior and subsequent turbulence. Those drivers tend to behave better around my assault vehicle.

And if your family is tall, you take long trips as a family, or you tow a real gas guzzler (my mid sized 18 foot runabout gets about 5 mpg) you need weight and size.

Insurance wise, my Tahoe is less costly to insure than my nice day car Corvette or my wife's small Pontiac. The cost is comparable to my daily driver... an absolutely boring 4 door Sable. If these things were so costly to the world in terms of vehicular carnage the insurance industry would certainly charge a premium to drive one. The insurance company's claims costs just do not reflect any statistical abberation.

:wink:

Rich
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IJ
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Post by IJ »

We like freedom here, but we also like some checks on the free market when it serves the common good. Fine. Give people a financial incentive to make smarter car choices. Lower taxes somewhere and raise em on gas and unnecessary trucks and SUVs. Here in SD, there are a million SUVs with inch thin tires and super shiny hubcaps. It's obviously an issue of flaunting dough and image, because you can't take those rims offroading. People who'll blow money on these things and (many many others) could consider doing amazing things with that extra cash. And we all pay for the smog, the terrorism, the global warming; I pay higher gas prices too even tho I chose a reasonable sedan and even picked a home close to both work sites and play a fuel economy game (how much can I coast, how evenly can i keep my highway speeds etc).

I wonder if the overall safety impact will change when EVERYONE is not just getting hit in these things but hit by them too. I mean, standing up in a stadium improves visibility. Till 100000 neighbors do the same.

As for personal responsibility, its a mix. Some of these deaths would not occur in more reasonable vehicle choices. Some would have. Reductions in both avenues of improvement (better drivers, better cars) should be sought.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich wrote: Like it or not, on balance SUVs as a class are safer than the average vehicle.
Why do you keep saying this, Rich? You know I have posted information from the NHTSA showing the exact opposite to be true.

Show me some data to contradict the NHTSA data.

Also, something else to consider when looking at costs. Did you know that cigarette smoking saves our government money? That's right. On average smokers die 7 years earlier than nonsmokers. This saves our government lots of bucks on social security, Medicare, etc.

Similarly, dead people are cheaper than live ones at the end of an accident.

Furthermore the drivers of SUVs don't look to their own insurance companies to cover their own medical costs when SUVs injure or kill them from rollover accidents. If anything, they look to the OTHER carriers - and their health insurance companies - to cover these costs that they themselves caused by driving in an unsafe manner (by vehicle and/or by lack of driving skill).

- Bill
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Post by MikeK »

IJ, I was thinking more about personel responsibility in general and how some people think the gov't should save us from ourselves. No class warfare please. :D
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Here's a start, Rich.

Agency Priorities: Rollovers


Passenger Vehicle Occupant Fatality Rate*
in Rollover Crashes, by Type of Vehicle and Year

Source: FARS, Polk
*Rate per 100,000 Registered Vehicles


Image

And Rollovers accounted for 61% of all fatalities in automobile accidents in that year.

- Bill
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

"Why do you keep saying this, Rich? You know I have posted information from the NHTSA showing the exact opposite to be true."

Here is data from Highway Safety.org. It does not format well but the rates for 2003 are clear. My large SUV has a rate bettered only by large carss...

Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old, 2003
Vehicle size Rate
Car — mini 142
Car — small 108
Car — midsize 66
Car — large 61
Car — very Large 70
Pickup — small 124
Pickup — large 115
Pickup — very large 102
SUV — small 75
SUV — midsize 70
SUV — large 64
SUV — very large *
*Insufficient exposure for estimating reliable death rates

Multiple-vehicle crashes accounted for 42 driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles in 2003, while there were also 42 deaths per million in single-vehicle crashes. In single-vehicle crashes, pickups had the highest number of deaths per registered vehicle (74 per million) in 2003. In multiple-vehicle crashes, cars had the highest number of deaths per registered vehicle (47 per million), and SUVs had the lowest number of deaths per registered vehicle (26 per million).
Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old by crash type, 2003
Multiple vehicle Single vehicle Single vehicle rollover All crashes
Cars Mini 106 36 23 142
Small 63 45 23 108
Midsize 38 28 13 66
Large 38 23 10 61
Very Large 49 20 8 70
All cars 47 33 16 81
Pickups Small 49 74 42 124
Large 41 74 48 115
Very large 31 71 54 102
All pickups 42 74 48 116
SUVs Small 33 41 28 75
Midsize 24 46 36 70
Large 25 38 28 64
Very large * * * *
All utility vehicles 26 44 33 70
All passenger vehicles 42 42 25 84
*Insufficient exposure for estimating reliable death rates

Here is the website with a ton of good data cut every which way you might want it:

http://www.highwaysafety.org/safety_fac ... upants.htm

Rich
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MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

A quicky on where we get our oil and with whom we are now competing for it.
http://www.energybulletin.net/4199.html
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

I do not argue that roll overs are a concern in SUVs, and they account for a higher percentage of fatalities than other types of accidents. However, rollovers are not the most common type of accident and make up much less than half of all crashes. If every accident were a rollover with unrestrained occupants you would be correct. It just is not like that. You are fixated on rollovers. You are much more likely to be in a head-on or side impact accident. That is where the SUV shines.

Read the stats on the site I posted. It is by the Insurance Institute for Highway safety. If any organization has skin in the game it is the insurance industry.

Rich
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Panther
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Post by Panther »

Sure, most people don't need SUVs... and that includes those that HAVE them.

BUT, if you come up to the homestead sometime... and I've decided that I have better things to do than (re)plow the snow off the driveway (that little dirt road that goes 1/2 mile through the woods uphill to the house), and you don't have 4X4 capabilities... well... it's a nice walk. ;)

One of my slow-thinking brother-in-laws came to visit unexpectedly the other weekend. He owns a 98 Tahoe with all the bells and whistles. (I have a Yukon...) After he lost it in the driveway, I had to go get him "unstuck"! And I'd plowed out! I asked him what his problem was and found out that it was the first time he'd had it in four-wheel drive... And he STILL lost it and slide coming up the driveway.

Just got a call from another relative that's coming over this evening... They asked if I was plowed out... NO... Then they got upset because they didn't want to mess up their HUGE Toyota Titan 4X4 by having to put it in 4WD! (What's up with THAT?) Told them they didn't have to... they could stay home!

But Bill... I'm waiting for them to have a decent SUV hybrid available... Otherwise, I might change over to diesel like my farm equipment uses.
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