Bus "brawl"
Bus "brawl"
I'm sure everybody has seen the film of the Florida bus driver fighting with two teenage brothers on a school bus. I'm sure the bus driver was frustrated and probably pissed off at the kids. I remember how I was when I was that age. But, how can the bus driver be charged with misdemeanor assault and kids with felonies (as reported by ABC news this morning)? At the beginning of the altercation, there were inaudible verbal exchanges between all involved. Then the bus driver, who outweighed the older brother by a good 100lbs and obviously much stronger, slaps and then grabs the 15 year old boy by the throat. Of course, his younger brother (13) attempts to come to his brothers rescue and the fight is on.
Where does it say that verbal abuse legally justifies a physical reaction? Nowhere! The bus driver should have responded with minimal force, not a full slap in the face and then a choke hold. He couldn't possibly had fealt himself in physical danger from an un-armed 15 year old child when he had height, weight, strength, and most likely experience as advantages.
Yes, the 13 year old brother was being rowdy, prompting the bus driver to attempt to regain order and safety on his bus. Yes, the 15 year old brother interfered (verbally.) But, my original argument still holds. Verbal abuse does not justify a physical escalation. Where the boys right in defending each other? Yes, as members of a society, we live by a social contract that insists that we defend our family members. It was the bus driver who escalated the altercation to physical violence and should be charged with felony assault on a minor.
If anyone should hit the kids, let it be the mother or father administering corporal punishment at home.
Where does it say that verbal abuse legally justifies a physical reaction? Nowhere! The bus driver should have responded with minimal force, not a full slap in the face and then a choke hold. He couldn't possibly had fealt himself in physical danger from an un-armed 15 year old child when he had height, weight, strength, and most likely experience as advantages.
Yes, the 13 year old brother was being rowdy, prompting the bus driver to attempt to regain order and safety on his bus. Yes, the 15 year old brother interfered (verbally.) But, my original argument still holds. Verbal abuse does not justify a physical escalation. Where the boys right in defending each other? Yes, as members of a society, we live by a social contract that insists that we defend our family members. It was the bus driver who escalated the altercation to physical violence and should be charged with felony assault on a minor.
If anyone should hit the kids, let it be the mother or father administering corporal punishment at home.
- Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
This is a difficult issue. I saw the tape and the story, but I'm not sure I have all the information.
But this is why LEOs teach the force continuum. A law enforcement officer may only use one level of force above what the BG uses. And it takes a LOT of good training to see that this happens right. Otherwise, somebody's going to catch you on film, and next thing you know you have riot city.
I found myself emotionally feeling for both sides in the story. If I were the parent, I would want my kids to behave so this wouldn't happen in the first place. Driving a bus is done safest when the kids do what they are supposed to do. Unnecessary distractions can result in someone getting killed. A school bus is a lethal weapon. On the other hand... The bus driver has some explaining to do. He did not appear to be in control of his emotions.
- Bill
But this is why LEOs teach the force continuum. A law enforcement officer may only use one level of force above what the BG uses. And it takes a LOT of good training to see that this happens right. Otherwise, somebody's going to catch you on film, and next thing you know you have riot city.
I found myself emotionally feeling for both sides in the story. If I were the parent, I would want my kids to behave so this wouldn't happen in the first place. Driving a bus is done safest when the kids do what they are supposed to do. Unnecessary distractions can result in someone getting killed. A school bus is a lethal weapon. On the other hand... The bus driver has some explaining to do. He did not appear to be in control of his emotions.
- Bill
I Agree
As a former, and hopefully future LEO, I believe the smack and choke hold, which escalated the situation was totally un-called for. If the bus driver had pulled the 13 year old brother by the arm to the front of the bus, I would be on the driver's side. But, that's not what happened. How could you strike one brother and not expect a further escalation from both?
The driver did not hit the boy or any other in the bus until the boy jumped up out of his seat behind him in an aggressive poster. And to me the “hit” looked more like a strike to push away. Then both boys jumped him.
At what point is the driver suppose to just sit there and let them take control of the situation? NEVER!! The adult should never yield control to a kid. If a kid thinks they are able to and have the right to aggressively poster an adult (showing no respect or fear of consequences) they deserve to be treated like adults and hit.
If I was the father of the boys they would of gotten the belt and been forced the apologize to the driver for disrupting the bus.
That’s what’s wrong today. When I was a boy if I went on to a neighbors yard clime a tree and broke a branch and fell out breaking my arm I would have had to (after getting arm fixed) go to the neighbor and say I was sorry for trespassing and breaking the tree branch.
Today most would sue the neighbor for having a tree that wasn’t strong enough to hold the kid. And most likely WIN the case!! That’s the sad state of the US. Parents discipline your kids in the first place so thy have respect for adults and things like this would not happen. Kids learn respect from fear. Fear of spanking, grounding, not getting something they want.
But because of others getting involved in parents disciplining their children. Kids today have no fear from adults knowing that they can get away with anything. Hearing kids say to their parents things like if you do so and so I’m calling the cops and reporting you for abuse.
The fact that there is such an outrage over the bus fight only proves how messed up the US has gotten. The boys started it in the first place because of their lack of respect and fear of consequences and everybody is trying to prove the boys lack of fear to be true making them out to be victims. And there NOT
Side note I think cops have the right to use any forc. if you break the law and resist you deserve what you get it goes back to a lack of fear and respect.
The so called modern world is to soft on punishing people of all ages that do the wrong things. and then call them victoms when the fact is the only thing there a victom of is not having been punished enough.
At what point is the driver suppose to just sit there and let them take control of the situation? NEVER!! The adult should never yield control to a kid. If a kid thinks they are able to and have the right to aggressively poster an adult (showing no respect or fear of consequences) they deserve to be treated like adults and hit.
If I was the father of the boys they would of gotten the belt and been forced the apologize to the driver for disrupting the bus.
That’s what’s wrong today. When I was a boy if I went on to a neighbors yard clime a tree and broke a branch and fell out breaking my arm I would have had to (after getting arm fixed) go to the neighbor and say I was sorry for trespassing and breaking the tree branch.
Today most would sue the neighbor for having a tree that wasn’t strong enough to hold the kid. And most likely WIN the case!! That’s the sad state of the US. Parents discipline your kids in the first place so thy have respect for adults and things like this would not happen. Kids learn respect from fear. Fear of spanking, grounding, not getting something they want.
But because of others getting involved in parents disciplining their children. Kids today have no fear from adults knowing that they can get away with anything. Hearing kids say to their parents things like if you do so and so I’m calling the cops and reporting you for abuse.
The fact that there is such an outrage over the bus fight only proves how messed up the US has gotten. The boys started it in the first place because of their lack of respect and fear of consequences and everybody is trying to prove the boys lack of fear to be true making them out to be victims. And there NOT
Side note I think cops have the right to use any forc. if you break the law and resist you deserve what you get it goes back to a lack of fear and respect.
The so called modern world is to soft on punishing people of all ages that do the wrong things. and then call them victoms when the fact is the only thing there a victom of is not having been punished enough.
I somewhat agree
Yes, allot of kids today have no respect or discipline and very little in the way of manners. And I agree that people should stay out of family business when it comes to properly disciplining children. BUT, if you really watched the film, you would have seen the bus driver taking two (2) steps back to the front of the bus in order to reach the 15 year old brother. There was no pushing away. No attempt to restrain the children. IT WAS A FULL OUT SLAP IN THE FACE. No one has the right to hit anyone, but in self defense, and in some places the person defending himself could face charges as well. In the military they call it, "Mutual Afray."(sp) In this case, charge the kids with disorderly conduct and the driver with assault on a minor. I don't care how agressively a 15 year old kid stands in front of me if I weigh at least 100lbs more, stand at least 6 inches taller and have decades more experience and knowledge on him. I can't justify hitting first. Physical restraint? Sure. Assault & Battery? NO.
- Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
As a parent, I applaud the call for discipline and respect from children. I agree - this situation shouldn't have happened in the first place.
However...
It is the job of LEOs to enforce the law. It is not their job to try, convict, and punish on the spot. That is the job of the judicial process, where fair representation can be achieved.
Walk a mile in the shoes of a "minority" group, and see how it feels. Back in the early 1970s, I was constantly harassed by pin-headed A-holes who happened to be policemen because my hair was long and I had an anti-Nixon bumper sticker. My "crime" was exercising my rights to free speech and free expression in a democracy. I cannot imagine how bad it might have gotten if those who felt a need to stop and harass me had the right to use any force - particularly when I hadn't broken any laws.
Think about how bad it was for Shia and Kurds living under the Baathists in Iraq. How would the cause be fruitful if we only helped them form another brand of fascism by example?
Think about how bad it was for many minority groups in this country before being anyone but a WASP was accepted.
I respect and support LEOs. And I am thankful that they get the best training in the force continuum and in their proper role in a democracy.
I know you didn't really mean what you said. I just wanted you to think about it a bit.
- Bill
However...
You lost me here.MEaton wrote: Side note I think cops have the right to use any forc
It is the job of LEOs to enforce the law. It is not their job to try, convict, and punish on the spot. That is the job of the judicial process, where fair representation can be achieved.
Walk a mile in the shoes of a "minority" group, and see how it feels. Back in the early 1970s, I was constantly harassed by pin-headed A-holes who happened to be policemen because my hair was long and I had an anti-Nixon bumper sticker. My "crime" was exercising my rights to free speech and free expression in a democracy. I cannot imagine how bad it might have gotten if those who felt a need to stop and harass me had the right to use any force - particularly when I hadn't broken any laws.
Think about how bad it was for Shia and Kurds living under the Baathists in Iraq. How would the cause be fruitful if we only helped them form another brand of fascism by example?
Think about how bad it was for many minority groups in this country before being anyone but a WASP was accepted.
I respect and support LEOs. And I am thankful that they get the best training in the force continuum and in their proper role in a democracy.
I know you didn't really mean what you said. I just wanted you to think about it a bit.
- Bill
- RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
This is a really tough spot for a school employee. There can be a 'lose-lose' component in these situations.
I'm a substitute teacher at a local high school. It is a very blue collar school with a large and diverse mixture of ethnicities. For the most part I work in the USMC JROTC program but occasionally am called to work in other departments. Also, when employed as an ROTC instructor I might still be asked to do hall duty, lunch room duty, study hall duty or what is called 'alternative learning' duty. That is where the really incorrigible (SP?) trouble makers are sent.
In a school with 2,000 students the occasional fight breaks out, or the occasional knife or firearm pops up. When I asked what I should do if a serious fight breaks out I was told 'Your a sub, don't get involved as it is not worth it'. They have a emergency phone system and a resource officer (on duty LEO) on site so if in doubt, call for help and stand back.
In JROTC there is much more discipline and the kids there want to be there. It is rare that there is trouble that a loud voice and stare cannot fix. Not so outside JROTC. What has happened though is that I have two things going for me... One is the kids hear I'm fair but do not tolerate much. Two, they know I am the 'Marine karate guy' and do not want to risk pissing me off.
By the way, my job in the 'alternative learning center' is to just be there with the instructor in charge. So far, never a lick of trouble when I am in there.
Would I ever make physical contact with an unruly student? I will never tell. A little doubt in their minds goes a long way.
Rich
I'm a substitute teacher at a local high school. It is a very blue collar school with a large and diverse mixture of ethnicities. For the most part I work in the USMC JROTC program but occasionally am called to work in other departments. Also, when employed as an ROTC instructor I might still be asked to do hall duty, lunch room duty, study hall duty or what is called 'alternative learning' duty. That is where the really incorrigible (SP?) trouble makers are sent.
In a school with 2,000 students the occasional fight breaks out, or the occasional knife or firearm pops up. When I asked what I should do if a serious fight breaks out I was told 'Your a sub, don't get involved as it is not worth it'. They have a emergency phone system and a resource officer (on duty LEO) on site so if in doubt, call for help and stand back.
In JROTC there is much more discipline and the kids there want to be there. It is rare that there is trouble that a loud voice and stare cannot fix. Not so outside JROTC. What has happened though is that I have two things going for me... One is the kids hear I'm fair but do not tolerate much. Two, they know I am the 'Marine karate guy' and do not want to risk pissing me off.
By the way, my job in the 'alternative learning center' is to just be there with the instructor in charge. So far, never a lick of trouble when I am in there.
Would I ever make physical contact with an unruly student? I will never tell. A little doubt in their minds goes a long way.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
Agreed with Meaton that there is too little responsibility in this country, too many lawsuits, too few people who understand how to work rather than whine for a living.
But I echo Bill's concern about LEO's use of force. Most often it would be appropriate but "mostly" is not an adequate standard. There would be a lot of judge and jury on the street by LEOs and their sentances would often be wrong, unconstitutional, and delivered against the innocent if there were no checks on their use of force.
I also am not a great fan of using "the belt." Sow violence, reap violence. Lead by example, push for mutual respect, the golden rule, generosity, a sense of service, appropriate senses of guilt and shame instead. There may be people who're lost and may need more aggressive correction, but let them never be people WE have authority to hit anyway--in other words, you shouldn't need to hit your kid, and you can't go beating others' kids.
But I echo Bill's concern about LEO's use of force. Most often it would be appropriate but "mostly" is not an adequate standard. There would be a lot of judge and jury on the street by LEOs and their sentances would often be wrong, unconstitutional, and delivered against the innocent if there were no checks on their use of force.
I also am not a great fan of using "the belt." Sow violence, reap violence. Lead by example, push for mutual respect, the golden rule, generosity, a sense of service, appropriate senses of guilt and shame instead. There may be people who're lost and may need more aggressive correction, but let them never be people WE have authority to hit anyway--in other words, you shouldn't need to hit your kid, and you can't go beating others' kids.
--Ian
- RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Hi Ian. How are you doing? What ever happened to Tim?
There are a lot of 'at risk' kids at the high school. They have little supervision at home and often no male role model. A lot of these kids are directed to JROTC where the discipline is tougher. We cannot hit them but if they want to stay in the program they must tow the line. Actually, the threat of a mile run and/or 30 minutes of hard boot camp style calisthenics is more meaningful than a smack in the head.
Outside of the JROTC program there is very little a teacher can do with a kid that just will not participate or cooperate with the class. They can be suspended or sent to the 'alternative learning center' for the day or week. When I run into these kids outside of JROTC I just let them sit there and be bored but will make them sign a blank piece of paper to turn for the days lesson to show the regular teacher the lack of desire. As long as they are not causing trouble I ignore them.
Some of the trouble makers can be dealt with via some negotiation. Sometimes I'll let them stand up front as the teacher to see what it feels like for a sub they are intent on abusing.
Next fall I have been asked to be a JROTC sub at a school in a bad part of town. The Marine instructors really need help so I plan to give it a go. Too bad I must be disarmed before entering the school.
Rich
There are a lot of 'at risk' kids at the high school. They have little supervision at home and often no male role model. A lot of these kids are directed to JROTC where the discipline is tougher. We cannot hit them but if they want to stay in the program they must tow the line. Actually, the threat of a mile run and/or 30 minutes of hard boot camp style calisthenics is more meaningful than a smack in the head.
Outside of the JROTC program there is very little a teacher can do with a kid that just will not participate or cooperate with the class. They can be suspended or sent to the 'alternative learning center' for the day or week. When I run into these kids outside of JROTC I just let them sit there and be bored but will make them sign a blank piece of paper to turn for the days lesson to show the regular teacher the lack of desire. As long as they are not causing trouble I ignore them.
Some of the trouble makers can be dealt with via some negotiation. Sometimes I'll let them stand up front as the teacher to see what it feels like for a sub they are intent on abusing.
Next fall I have been asked to be a JROTC sub at a school in a bad part of town. The Marine instructors really need help so I plan to give it a go. Too bad I must be disarmed before entering the school.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
- Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
heh I dont really use a belt just my hand should of said spanking I guess. but I disagree with some said here. A good spanking gives somthing to fear and this kind of fear within a loving family breads respect. the key here is the loving family I have a 4yo son so I have had lil reason as of yet but have spanked when needed and there is no love lost from eather of us. but he now knows there are consaquenses for doing things he should not do. but at young ages respect isnt understood and its at that time consaquenses for actions needs to be learnd.
Ill agree the driver made a mistake after calling for the cops (somthing he had already done before the video we all have seen) He should of just sat there and wated. but that still dosnt change the fact that the 15yo jumped up out of his seat behind the driver in an aggresive way. before the driver hit anybody and again the "hit" was more of a slap push away.
If a teen thainks he has the right it jump up in an aggresive posture to an adult.(that hasnt done anything wrong yet) He deserves a good hit if you ask me. we need to stop letting these lil punks get away with merder.
I hope the charges dont get reduced on the boys if it does it will make things worse telling them and all kids that thay can get away with what ever thay want
they hit the driver granted the driver hit first. but thay created the situation that caused the altercation in the first place. Granted this all comes down to bad parenting. but if they are not gona punnish the boys the laws should.
Ill agree the driver made a mistake after calling for the cops (somthing he had already done before the video we all have seen) He should of just sat there and wated. but that still dosnt change the fact that the 15yo jumped up out of his seat behind the driver in an aggresive way. before the driver hit anybody and again the "hit" was more of a slap push away.
If a teen thainks he has the right it jump up in an aggresive posture to an adult.(that hasnt done anything wrong yet) He deserves a good hit if you ask me. we need to stop letting these lil punks get away with merder.
I hope the charges dont get reduced on the boys if it does it will make things worse telling them and all kids that thay can get away with what ever thay want
they hit the driver granted the driver hit first. but thay created the situation that caused the altercation in the first place. Granted this all comes down to bad parenting. but if they are not gona punnish the boys the laws should.
Just a quick clarification. If the teen had been an adult, who would you say was in the wrong? Is it more, or less right for someone to strike a teen preemptively?MEaton wrote: If a teen thainks he has the right it jump up in an aggresive posture to an adult.(that hasnt done anything wrong yet) He deserves a good hit if you ask me. we need to stop letting these lil punks get away with merder.
As for the general question of parenting, obviously that's up to the individual parent. Personally, I don't think fear and respect are inextricably linked, and have no intention of using violence to control my children.
And thats why youth crime is at an all time high and respect for adults is all but gone now in the US the. people dont think thay are linked.
Spare the rod spoil the child is a very old truth that has been lost in todays lets all just hug way of thinking thats been proven not to work and the condition of the US today is proof of it if anybody here tells you that kids are just as well behaved as 100 years ago it would be a lie.
This also has to do with religen as well the fear for many was the fear in god of doing the wrong thing.
When fear of real consaquenses is gone so is respect for others and and laws.
And if the teen had been an adult lets really look at that if he was an adult there would be no argument here about the fact that he was the agresser then jumping up behind the driver in an aggresive maner to what end? many would say that just jumping up isnt wrong but that dont consider the motavation behind jumping up behind the driver.
If the 2 boys where adults there would be no question that the driver hit in self defence being verbaly attacked serounded and backed in a corner so to speak. but because people see young inasent boys (and thats a huge lie) thay blindly say the boys are the victoms.
I guess the diff here is I do not see teen boys as inasent weak victoms when that are the agressers in the first place.
I guess this all comes from my self at that age I had no respect for others had more then a few brushes with the law I even hit my own father more then once. It took some harsh punnishments and alot of time (and finding somthing to beleave in) for me to see my mistakes. But back then I was a real threat even to an adult. So I do not see victoms in teen boys. at least not in this type situation.
Spare the rod spoil the child is a very old truth that has been lost in todays lets all just hug way of thinking thats been proven not to work and the condition of the US today is proof of it if anybody here tells you that kids are just as well behaved as 100 years ago it would be a lie.
This also has to do with religen as well the fear for many was the fear in god of doing the wrong thing.
When fear of real consaquenses is gone so is respect for others and and laws.
And if the teen had been an adult lets really look at that if he was an adult there would be no argument here about the fact that he was the agresser then jumping up behind the driver in an aggresive maner to what end? many would say that just jumping up isnt wrong but that dont consider the motavation behind jumping up behind the driver.
If the 2 boys where adults there would be no question that the driver hit in self defence being verbaly attacked serounded and backed in a corner so to speak. but because people see young inasent boys (and thats a huge lie) thay blindly say the boys are the victoms.
I guess the diff here is I do not see teen boys as inasent weak victoms when that are the agressers in the first place.
I guess this all comes from my self at that age I had no respect for others had more then a few brushes with the law I even hit my own father more then once. It took some harsh punnishments and alot of time (and finding somthing to beleave in) for me to see my mistakes. But back then I was a real threat even to an adult. So I do not see victoms in teen boys. at least not in this type situation.
- Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
MEaton
I agree with some of what you say. But I do want to challenge you on one thought here.
That being said, I challenge your assertion above. Has a reduction in corporal punishment been proven to cause societal problems we observe today? How can you say this when you also have the coexisting issue of an increase in single parent homes? Where on the scale of consequences does corporal punishment lie compared to the issue of growing up without a father at home? And what about changes in personal responsibility/accountability that has permeated our national psyche with the explosion of personal injury and other lawsuits?
Food for thought.
- Bill
I agree with some of what you say. But I do want to challenge you on one thought here.
I have no problem if you choose to use corporal punishment to raise your children. It is a legal option, if properly administered. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that alternative methods yield better longterm outcomes. I don't think anyone has proven anything - yet.MEaton wrote: Spare the rod spoil the child is a very old truth that has been lost in todays lets all just hug way of thinking thats been proven not to work and the condition of the US today is proof of it if anybody here tells you that kids are just as well behaved as 100 years ago it would be a lie.
That being said, I challenge your assertion above. Has a reduction in corporal punishment been proven to cause societal problems we observe today? How can you say this when you also have the coexisting issue of an increase in single parent homes? Where on the scale of consequences does corporal punishment lie compared to the issue of growing up without a father at home? And what about changes in personal responsibility/accountability that has permeated our national psyche with the explosion of personal injury and other lawsuits?
Food for thought.
- Bill
To clarify my position, I do see that fear can generate respect, but I do not think fear is neccesary for respect. However, I think some of this disagreement is just definitional. By "respect" I mean "To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem." whereas it sounds like you're more inclined to the " To avoid violation of or interference with" (I got those two from dictionary.com)MEaton wrote:And thats why youth crime is at an all time high and respect for adults is all but gone now in the US the. people dont think thay are linked.
I think there is crossover, however, in that if you hold someone in esteem you're more likely to do what they ask, which is also true if you fear reprisal should you fail to do what is asked.
My ultimate point here is that you
I'm not sure what specific conditions you're talking about here. Incidents like this bus story? I think there are a lot more factors to this than just that children are not disciplined enough. Also, if by "all just hug" you mean that positive reinforcement has been proven not to work I'd like to know where I can find such proof.Spare the rod spoil the child is a very old truth that has been lost in todays lets all just hug way of thinking thats been proven not to work and the condition of the US today is proof of it
That's a very difficult statement to prove either way. How does one even quantify "well-behaved"?if anybody here tells you that kids are just as well behaved as 100 years ago it would be a lie.
This particular can of worms has been dumped out in several other threads. Suffice to say for now that God is not neccesary for ethical behavior.This also has to do with religen as well the fear for many was the fear in god of doing the wrong thing.
I think that depends entirely on the person. For some people, I can accept that without a constant threat of repercussions they will behave poorly. For others, behaving ethically is an end of itself.When fear of real consaquenses is gone so is respect for others and and
laws.
That's fine, and I agree. I never feel like I'm in a real position to judge in these situations, since I'm getting just a tiny piece of the story, second or third hand. All I am saying here is that if we think it would be unreasonable to for the bus-driver to slap an adult in this situation, then it's unreasonable for the bus-driver to slap the teenager. If it's reasonable for the bus-driver to slap an adult in this situation, then it's reasonable for the bus-driver to slap the teenager.And if the teen had been an adult lets really look at that if he was an adult
I guess the diff here is I do not see teen boys as inasent weak victoms when that are the agressers in the first place.