I think the changes in personal responsibility/accountability is directly connected to the lack of fear of real consaquenses that have messed up everything in the first place all the way up to our current laws.
The more liberal minded have meshed with the seculer agenda. to try to erode the family unit by brodaning the deffanition of what a family is and what the role of each member is. By its very deffanition liberal (not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms) break away from the traditional aspects of life.
We find a direct coralation between the Women's Lib movement and the increase in youth crimes in the US. (not the only factor but a big one)
Now dont get me wrong here I agree in it all but the question isnt can they do the job of a man but should thay? I firmly beleave 1 parent should be in the house at all times. Im a stay at home dad and enjoy doing my part for the family. And feal its my duty. And just a reminder I did say fear of consaquenses combined with a loving family together creat respect. remove the fear and you have false respect thay may pretend to but when your not around will do what thay want as long as thay think you wont find out.
I speek from experience here My parents tryed the soft punnishment type of parenting and had no clue what I was really like untill the cops let them know. I wish my parents had spanked me more. May have saved me from alot of probs I had in life. granted most people are not as honest as I about how thay where as a teen (most of the group that are still alive that I hung with have even convinced themself that that it was all the others but not them) but I hope some may learn from my mistakes
but thats whats lacking today and to tie back in to the subject of the thread (Im trying hard not to hijack it here) Lack of parenting results in lack of respect that directly created the situation that resulted in the hit. And if we let the boys get off with no punnishment we are sending the wrong message
Im sorry if we have goten off the subject a lil here but I feal there are much bigger issues here that have created the situations like this one here. and many others in the world today.
As not to hijack this thread feal free to PM me with any comments that are off the bus topic itself or maybe a new thread.
Bus "brawl"
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
My wife constantly tells me she wishes MY parents had spanked ME more.MEaton wrote: I wish my parents had spanked me more.
That would be a tough position to defend.MEaton wrote: We find a direct coralation between the Women's Lib movement and the increase in youth crimes in the US.
"Women's Lib" encompasses many things. Many are good. Equal pay for equal work is good. Recognition of the economic value of domestic duties is good. The power to leave a severly abusive relationship is good - particularly where the concern of children is involved.
Other aspects of "Women's Lib" arguably are not "good." Women are learning this all the time. For example nobody (of either gender) can "do it all" well. The division of labor indeed is a great concept.
I believe this is something that everyone (here) agrees with.MEaton wrote: if we let the boys get off with no punnishment we are sending the wrong message
- Bill
Where true respect is learned
When I was in my early teens my single mother had to use corporal punishment on me because I was caught shop lifting at a local store. I then had to appologize and pay for the things I stole, which I never saw again. Yes, being hit with a ruler hurts and the memory stopped me from shop lifting after that but, its not the fear of repeating that punishment that stopped me. I learned that the clerk had to pay for what I stole and even more importantly, and this is the kicker, my mother was disappointed in me. My mother, who worked herself to the bone raising 3 kids by herself meant more to me than anyone. My respect for her didn't come from fear of punishment, but from love and respect for all she did to make me and my siblings happy. Or, as happy as possible. Still, my slightly delinquent ways didn't change all together until I was 15, when I realized that what I was still doing would again disappoint my mother. I dropped all my "friends" and sank myself into karate. Although my grades in school suffered, karate was my world and taught me discipline and about will power. Nothing was more meaningfull, for me than when I saw the pride in her eyes when I told her that I had passed the test for Shodan at the age of 17.
That is MY experience with respect and discipline. For what it is worth, as I minored in Psychology in college, I submit that any Psychologist/Psychiatrist worth the paper his degree is printed on would agree that positive reinforcement is more effective in teaching than punishment. Why? The effect of punishment fades faster than the effects of a reward. Because we (the majority of society) lean towards instant gratification, we work harder for what we perceive as a reward than we do to avoid punishment. In other words, if the action that may merit punishment, provided we are caught, is perceived as a reward, then the punishment is seen as a necessary consequence.
Example: A kid is insulted on the school playground, a fight ensues and both children are suspended from school. Both are punished and rewarded at the same time. Punished from the school and rewarded from their peers (he's willing to fight, he's not a wimp). Which is more important to the kids? The reward from their peers. Will they fight again? Most likely, just not on school grounds. They'll meet at a park somewhere after school and be rewarded for it by their peers. Not saying that the school was wrong in suspending the kids, as I was suspended for fighting in school, but the suspension doesn't equal or better the reward given by the kid's peers. Even as a child, other's respect meant allot to me. When we (me and the kid I had fought with) were in the principal's office, the principal made it clear that we had lost his respect. I haven't been in but 2 fights since and those were completely self defense.
While I agree, corporal punishment has its place in the raising of unruly children (mostly as a shock method), respect is not truly earned with physical punishments, but by the true and heart felt actions of parents and care takers.
That is MY experience with respect and discipline. For what it is worth, as I minored in Psychology in college, I submit that any Psychologist/Psychiatrist worth the paper his degree is printed on would agree that positive reinforcement is more effective in teaching than punishment. Why? The effect of punishment fades faster than the effects of a reward. Because we (the majority of society) lean towards instant gratification, we work harder for what we perceive as a reward than we do to avoid punishment. In other words, if the action that may merit punishment, provided we are caught, is perceived as a reward, then the punishment is seen as a necessary consequence.
Example: A kid is insulted on the school playground, a fight ensues and both children are suspended from school. Both are punished and rewarded at the same time. Punished from the school and rewarded from their peers (he's willing to fight, he's not a wimp). Which is more important to the kids? The reward from their peers. Will they fight again? Most likely, just not on school grounds. They'll meet at a park somewhere after school and be rewarded for it by their peers. Not saying that the school was wrong in suspending the kids, as I was suspended for fighting in school, but the suspension doesn't equal or better the reward given by the kid's peers. Even as a child, other's respect meant allot to me. When we (me and the kid I had fought with) were in the principal's office, the principal made it clear that we had lost his respect. I haven't been in but 2 fights since and those were completely self defense.
While I agree, corporal punishment has its place in the raising of unruly children (mostly as a shock method), respect is not truly earned with physical punishments, but by the true and heart felt actions of parents and care takers.
agreed like I said spankings in a loving family unit.
I think whats missing here is the fact how perseptions change as you grow.
It starts as fear of consaquenses for the younger ages pre teen because at this stage thay are not as able to understand how doing wrong hurts others. again fear like not geting to do what thay want having somthing taken away grounding thats all fear! the punnishment must fit the crime so to speek.
Once thay are to the point that thay truly understand then it changes from fear of consaquenses to a moral oblagation to do the right thing. this is as long as thay learn respect prier through fear of consaquenses I have known people in ther 20s that havnt goten to this point because of the lack of fear of consaquenses. then you have the children of parents that have no respect for others eather and the kids have no chance but thats another story.
But we are sort of off topic again sorry.
I can agree that reward is stronger but not practacly in RL as a paranting tool even more so with the reduction of the family unit and kids spending less and less time with parents. You need to be aware of good deeds and around to reward. So it falls back to punnishment when wrong doing if found out. And you can really teach things like stealing is wrong with reward do you reward every time thay dont steel? Thats the diff between practus and theary
I think whats missing here is the fact how perseptions change as you grow.
It starts as fear of consaquenses for the younger ages pre teen because at this stage thay are not as able to understand how doing wrong hurts others. again fear like not geting to do what thay want having somthing taken away grounding thats all fear! the punnishment must fit the crime so to speek.
Once thay are to the point that thay truly understand then it changes from fear of consaquenses to a moral oblagation to do the right thing. this is as long as thay learn respect prier through fear of consaquenses I have known people in ther 20s that havnt goten to this point because of the lack of fear of consaquenses. then you have the children of parents that have no respect for others eather and the kids have no chance but thats another story.
But we are sort of off topic again sorry.
I can agree that reward is stronger but not practacly in RL as a paranting tool even more so with the reduction of the family unit and kids spending less and less time with parents. You need to be aware of good deeds and around to reward. So it falls back to punnishment when wrong doing if found out. And you can really teach things like stealing is wrong with reward do you reward every time thay dont steel? Thats the diff between practus and theary
Women's lib and youth violence may well have correlated (although we've seen no proof yet--many think society is more violent than ever and the face is that isn't true--can you post graphs of working moms against youth violence?) but that does NOT mean one is the cause. Lots of things happen at once in a complex society. For example, maybe more women worked because $ is tighter, and its the tighter $ and stress that are leaving kids without direction. Before linking the two, which is in effect a call for women to go back home and give up their careers (since I don't see 50% of men shouldering their load), better data is required.
As for corporal punishment and fear of consequences... I'm sure it has some effect. But is it necessary? May depend on the kid and the circumstances. My step mother hit me once and she actually LOST a bit of control over me because even at that age (10? something like that) I knew it was wrong to hit someone and she knew i knew that was no way to settle an argument. In other words, I'd already been taught right and wrong. All I needed was to see disappointment in a parent's eye and I was fairly well corrected.
One of the biggest predictors of abuse is having been abused. How do you draw the line between correction and abuse? One could say its a loving intent, but everyone has their own view of loving intent. Wife beaters love their wives and apologize all the time. People with misdirected goals overcorrect their kids in the eyes of others all the time. You CAN raise a good kid without hitting him or her and so I don't see the need to do it.
As for corporal punishment and fear of consequences... I'm sure it has some effect. But is it necessary? May depend on the kid and the circumstances. My step mother hit me once and she actually LOST a bit of control over me because even at that age (10? something like that) I knew it was wrong to hit someone and she knew i knew that was no way to settle an argument. In other words, I'd already been taught right and wrong. All I needed was to see disappointment in a parent's eye and I was fairly well corrected.
One of the biggest predictors of abuse is having been abused. How do you draw the line between correction and abuse? One could say its a loving intent, but everyone has their own view of loving intent. Wife beaters love their wives and apologize all the time. People with misdirected goals overcorrect their kids in the eyes of others all the time. You CAN raise a good kid without hitting him or her and so I don't see the need to do it.
--Ian
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
"many think society is more violent than ever"
This is absloutely untrue. Violent crime of all types is way down in the last ten years. In fact, according to the FBI crime statistics total violent crime is less than half of what it was in the early 1990s. And this is for all demographics. Violent crime is occuring at a rate equivalent to that of the mid 1960s.
The rate started dropping around 1994 and until 2003 dropped at double digit rates annually. It dipped a bit in 2003 but has been close to flat for two years now. But in rough number total violent crimes numbered about 10 million in 1995 and numbered around 5 million in 2003.
An aging population contributed to the decline, as did a shift away from crack cocaine. Also, parole was abolished in many states in the mid 90s and more prisons were built. Roughly 10% of the criminals committed most of the serious crimes so locking them up has proven to be beneficial.
Also, since 1994 the total # of states that 'shall issue' concealed handgun permits to citizens has gone from about 10 to 38. Interviews of criminals have shown that the thing they fear most is an armed and determined citizen.
There has been a slow rise in property crimes in recent years as the bad guys still ply their trade but prefer to avoid direct confrontation these days.
Rich
This is absloutely untrue. Violent crime of all types is way down in the last ten years. In fact, according to the FBI crime statistics total violent crime is less than half of what it was in the early 1990s. And this is for all demographics. Violent crime is occuring at a rate equivalent to that of the mid 1960s.
The rate started dropping around 1994 and until 2003 dropped at double digit rates annually. It dipped a bit in 2003 but has been close to flat for two years now. But in rough number total violent crimes numbered about 10 million in 1995 and numbered around 5 million in 2003.
An aging population contributed to the decline, as did a shift away from crack cocaine. Also, parole was abolished in many states in the mid 90s and more prisons were built. Roughly 10% of the criminals committed most of the serious crimes so locking them up has proven to be beneficial.
Also, since 1994 the total # of states that 'shall issue' concealed handgun permits to citizens has gone from about 10 to 38. Interviews of criminals have shown that the thing they fear most is an armed and determined citizen.
There has been a slow rise in property crimes in recent years as the bad guys still ply their trade but prefer to avoid direct confrontation these days.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
I never said anything about violent crime just youth crime that is at a high.
As for raising good kids without spankings. maybe but Ill bet there few and far between. every kid I ever meet whose parents used lighter punnishments where spoild brats who controled the house. Of corse the familys are blind to this. Most parients have no clue what there kids are really like.
But facts dont lie. youth crime is up respect for others even adults is down. And the family unit has been torn apart. All because of the more libral minded views such as lighter punishment for kids. ( dont need charts to see this just walk outside my door and see all the kids running wild )
I had 1 person that lived nere me who let his young pre teen kids play in and on his car for hours a day. and I have found them jumping on my car even breaking off the decrative plate holder climbing on it. The teens down the street selling drugs on the corner Kids are out of control
Is spanking the only way? NO!!! but it is a tool that must be used and if its not there is no real fear of consaquenses for kids.
As for reasons why wemon need to go to work now is true but way back when it all started it wasnt in fact the lower wage over all is lower now because there are more people in the work forse and places can fire and replace faster. SO you can say the increased workforce (due to wemon in it) Helps keep the avg wages down Men would be able to make enought easly to support a household if it wasnt so bad now. Now there is also the prob with luxaries being considerd requierments of life by most that sque this. My wife makes more then enought to support our family of 3.
Granted this is just 1 of many reasons for wemon in the workforce that really isnt the topic (why dosnt matter) just the fact that thay are is the thing. And I have seen no argument agenst it that works.
So to get back on topic The kids started the situation that resulted in the driver hitting 1 because of there lack or respect for him (for what ever reason but I bet its lack of fear because lack of real punnishment after hearing the mother on TV)
And now many people want the kids to get off compleatly with no punnishment at all (including there mother) Reinforcing the kids views that thay can get away with anything with no real consaquiences.
And I have seen no logical argument about how this is all a good thing! Just alot of knee jerk attacks on the driver for hitting the 1 (and I remind you the kid jumped up behind the driver in an agressive way)
If this isnt all prof of how messed up the thinking in the US has goten then its pointless to say more because people have been blinded buy the overly libral viewpoint that has smotherd the US over the years.
I havnt seen any new news on this case but I pray to god the kids dont get away with a lesser charge.
I dont want to reply to any other off topic thoughts about spankings and women's lib and all that because there so off topic here the thread is geting lost. feal free to start a new thread if you want on it.
As for raising good kids without spankings. maybe but Ill bet there few and far between. every kid I ever meet whose parents used lighter punnishments where spoild brats who controled the house. Of corse the familys are blind to this. Most parients have no clue what there kids are really like.
But facts dont lie. youth crime is up respect for others even adults is down. And the family unit has been torn apart. All because of the more libral minded views such as lighter punishment for kids. ( dont need charts to see this just walk outside my door and see all the kids running wild )
I had 1 person that lived nere me who let his young pre teen kids play in and on his car for hours a day. and I have found them jumping on my car even breaking off the decrative plate holder climbing on it. The teens down the street selling drugs on the corner Kids are out of control
Is spanking the only way? NO!!! but it is a tool that must be used and if its not there is no real fear of consaquenses for kids.
As for reasons why wemon need to go to work now is true but way back when it all started it wasnt in fact the lower wage over all is lower now because there are more people in the work forse and places can fire and replace faster. SO you can say the increased workforce (due to wemon in it) Helps keep the avg wages down Men would be able to make enought easly to support a household if it wasnt so bad now. Now there is also the prob with luxaries being considerd requierments of life by most that sque this. My wife makes more then enought to support our family of 3.
Granted this is just 1 of many reasons for wemon in the workforce that really isnt the topic (why dosnt matter) just the fact that thay are is the thing. And I have seen no argument agenst it that works.
So to get back on topic The kids started the situation that resulted in the driver hitting 1 because of there lack or respect for him (for what ever reason but I bet its lack of fear because lack of real punnishment after hearing the mother on TV)
And now many people want the kids to get off compleatly with no punnishment at all (including there mother) Reinforcing the kids views that thay can get away with anything with no real consaquiences.
And I have seen no logical argument about how this is all a good thing! Just alot of knee jerk attacks on the driver for hitting the 1 (and I remind you the kid jumped up behind the driver in an agressive way)
If this isnt all prof of how messed up the thinking in the US has goten then its pointless to say more because people have been blinded buy the overly libral viewpoint that has smotherd the US over the years.
I havnt seen any new news on this case but I pray to god the kids dont get away with a lesser charge.
I dont want to reply to any other off topic thoughts about spankings and women's lib and all that because there so off topic here the thread is geting lost. feal free to start a new thread if you want on it.
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
It's mere opinion when someone says that the kids are out of control and it's because of liberal ideas.
YOUR observation was that kids who were supposedly underspanked were out of control in comparison to spanked kids; I wager that there were other major differences between these homes. The spankers probably demanded more respect and enforced rules strictly in other aspects too. Correlation is not causation.
MY observation spending about 97% of my time around Californian healthcare professionals is that strongly liberal, left leaning upbringings and/or philosophies guarantee a strong work ethic and sense of purpose and community / respect for others. Of course, I'm dealing with a very select group, which is part of the reason I'm mentioning this.
You can't divide the behaviors and crime rates of groups of kids by whether they were spanked or not. There's just too much else going on. What I think IS fairly obvious is that standards, role models, and a strong sense of right and wrong ARE very important--I feel these can be imparted without spanking.
And I leave you with this question: if you are a spanker, and you are trying to teach a kid (a kid, mind you, who has concrete logic and simplistic understanding of rules of behavior) that it was wrong to go up and spank a classmate, and that s/he instead should act like the adults of the world, what should you do?
YOUR observation was that kids who were supposedly underspanked were out of control in comparison to spanked kids; I wager that there were other major differences between these homes. The spankers probably demanded more respect and enforced rules strictly in other aspects too. Correlation is not causation.
MY observation spending about 97% of my time around Californian healthcare professionals is that strongly liberal, left leaning upbringings and/or philosophies guarantee a strong work ethic and sense of purpose and community / respect for others. Of course, I'm dealing with a very select group, which is part of the reason I'm mentioning this.
You can't divide the behaviors and crime rates of groups of kids by whether they were spanked or not. There's just too much else going on. What I think IS fairly obvious is that standards, role models, and a strong sense of right and wrong ARE very important--I feel these can be imparted without spanking.
And I leave you with this question: if you are a spanker, and you are trying to teach a kid (a kid, mind you, who has concrete logic and simplistic understanding of rules of behavior) that it was wrong to go up and spank a classmate, and that s/he instead should act like the adults of the world, what should you do?
--Ian
I dont know what you trying to get out of this again way off topic but if I get you rihgt your asking is spanking a punishment for "spanking"? meaning if its OK for an adult to do its ok for a kid to do and your thinking in this is way wrong the punnishment would not be for "spanking" it would be for hitting in any way another person A spanking is a disaplinary action given by somebody in control somthing NO CHILD should have over anybodyIJ wrote:if you are a spanker, and you are trying to teach a kid (a kid, mind you, who has concrete logic and simplistic understanding of rules of behavior) that it was wrong to go up and spank a classmate, and that s/he instead should act like the adults of the world, what should you do?
So Yes I may spank for hitting another child. letting him know he has no right to hit anybody. And if there is any question about but you do it then I will say I have the right to "spank" not hit to dissaplin you as your parent or person in athoraty.
And again spanking in i loving family is a tool to teach consaquenses for bad actions somthing that is all but lost in the world today. We are getting off the topic and nobody has yet to show. how in this case Im wrong about the situation.
The kids started the situation that resulted in the hit by the bus driver because of there lack of respect for the adult (for what ever reason)
And letting them off with no punnishment would only reinforce there lack of respect.
Lets try to stick on topic on that point
Why did the kids act up?
Because thay thought thay could get away with it.
Why did thay think thay could get away with it?
Because somthing (we can argue What somewhere else) let them think that there are no real consaquenses for doing so! NO FEAR!!!
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ian, you lost me here as well.Ian wrote: if you are a spanker, and you are trying to teach a kid (a kid, mind you, who has concrete logic and simplistic understanding of rules of behavior) that it was wrong to go up and spank a classmate, and that s/he instead should act like the adults of the world, what should you do?
Using your own logic, I could say that yes, it is wrong for a LEO to act as judge and jury. We allow a judge to make decisions about innocence/guilt and prescribe punishment. But we do not give that right to a LEO.
Certainly it makes no sense for a kid to be "spanking."
I fall somewhere in the middle here. I was a product of a home where corporal punishment was used. A leather belt to be exact. It works... It can be done w/o irreparable harm. Generations practiced corporal punishment, and it worked just fine for them. And no, I am not talking about beating up your kids or your spouse.
I reserve the right to use corporal punishment on my own kids. In practice, I save it for special occasions, like when 3-year-old number 2 son ran out the door of a restaurant and into a busy parking lot. The way I see it, the palm of my hand hurts a lot less than the tires of an SUV. Corporal punishment in that particular instance seems particularly appropriate.
Child protective services hasn't taken my kids from me yet.
Otherwise it's something I prefer not to use. But my boys know I will... That's mostly all you need.
- Bill
Yep. The adult can spank because s/he has authority--otherwise the act is the same. Do we really think a kid is going to understand the distinctions of power, authority, and deserved punishment? For kids it only comes down to "daddy hit me because it is wrong to hit." If the kid is really latched onto daddy no love will be lost, and the kid will want a hug and to make up, but then I wonder if disapproval would have sufficed. If the kid is moving away from daddy I could see this helping.
It is possible to raise a kid so that the punishment is to feel like they disappointed someone they look up to. For kids that are younger than those that can feel that way, then a little spank may not be crazy, but other consequences may feel the same to them--loss of a toy, a loud noise, whatever. I can tell you my puppy understands he's done wrong with a stern roar, and I never need to hit it.
Bill spanking his kid to keep him out of the street sounds like real affection and might prove really helpful. I can't imagine a belt was ever necessary to keep Bill in line. He wasn't but a shodan then and it's "lessons" like those that degenerate into situations requiring child protective services.
It is possible to raise a kid so that the punishment is to feel like they disappointed someone they look up to. For kids that are younger than those that can feel that way, then a little spank may not be crazy, but other consequences may feel the same to them--loss of a toy, a loud noise, whatever. I can tell you my puppy understands he's done wrong with a stern roar, and I never need to hit it.
Bill spanking his kid to keep him out of the street sounds like real affection and might prove really helpful. I can't imagine a belt was ever necessary to keep Bill in line. He wasn't but a shodan then and it's "lessons" like those that degenerate into situations requiring child protective services.
--Ian
Its not like I spank all the time eather in fact only a cpl times a year maybe always depends on the case. I do have a special needs son who has an autistic disorder so I dont as much as I would otherwise seeing he dosnt always understand so I need to take time to deside what punnishment will work for what action.
Spanking is a tool that does work better then any other in some situations. thats all im saying. agree or disagree wont change my view.
And get off the "belt" it was a figuer of speech and I already said that. but then again if my 15yo son acted like the one on the bus video I may reconsider but I dont see my son ever being like that in the first place.
this is the last ill post on the "spanking" because its off topic really and ill say it again nobody has shown me im wrong here about the bus situation. it you want to reply that fine
Letting the boys off with a lesser or no punnishment will only reinforse there lack of respect for adults and fear of consaquenses for bad actions. The the very things that created the situation in the first place.
Was the bus driver wrong in hitting? maybe but he was a man in his 60s boxed in the center by 2 agressive teens (1 that was 15 thats not a small child) that had been so out of control that the cops had already been called before it happend.
The boys where out of control thay created the situation by there lack of respect and lack of fear of consaquenses.
Spanking is a tool that does work better then any other in some situations. thats all im saying. agree or disagree wont change my view.
And get off the "belt" it was a figuer of speech and I already said that. but then again if my 15yo son acted like the one on the bus video I may reconsider but I dont see my son ever being like that in the first place.
this is the last ill post on the "spanking" because its off topic really and ill say it again nobody has shown me im wrong here about the bus situation. it you want to reply that fine
Letting the boys off with a lesser or no punnishment will only reinforse there lack of respect for adults and fear of consaquenses for bad actions. The the very things that created the situation in the first place.
Was the bus driver wrong in hitting? maybe but he was a man in his 60s boxed in the center by 2 agressive teens (1 that was 15 thats not a small child) that had been so out of control that the cops had already been called before it happend.
The boys where out of control thay created the situation by there lack of respect and lack of fear of consaquenses.
No one CAN show you you're wrong about the bus video because this is a matter of opinion. MY opinion is that if you are MUCH larger than a child you don't hit the kid during an argument except in self defense. If we had been looking at some adult citizens and excessive force from the police we might be getting replies about the right to self defense even against the state when the agents of the state are misusing their power--as in when all surviving branch davidians were acquitted of assault. This guy was mad but NOT in fear of his own safety; after his mistake, the two kids WERE in fear of their safety.
--Ian
