This true or not?

[Panther]

I'd just want to be me and be able to deal but I don't know if I could or not.

Jeff

Because of your fear of not being you, you'd be OK. You wouldn't be the same person you are now, but you wouldn't sink into despair and you wouldn't turn into a brutal cold-blooded killer either.

I haven't been "in war" or a member of the military, but I've been through some things before. There are a lot of things that have to be dealt with... PTSD is a biggie. And all that goes through a series of emotions and phases from "why did I survive?" to "I'm invincible" and more. Then there is the sadness that seems overwhelmning, but it's not. THEN there's the anger that seems overwhelmning, but it's not. THEN you achieve a balance. No, you aren't the person you were before, you never will be... no one would be... But for most, whether on their own or with counselling help, a balance comes about and what has happened just becomes a part of your life experience. Nothing more... Nothing less... That's all.

[Bill Glasheen]

{Annan's} contention is that US officials with a certain preferred interogation tried to bend the US and international rules on torture. That culture, I believe, and lack of supervision led to Abu Ghraib.

Emphasis is my own.

Just as long as we make that clear, Ian. It's your belief, and there are no facts to back it up. The rule of law existed before, during, and after Abu Ghraib.

I don't feel so much animosity towards the journeymen folks who were there to perform whatever duty the military told them to. I believe the handful of professionals - individuals who were wardens in civilian life - are the ones who should receive the harshest punishment. They REALLY should have known better.

EVERY individual faces daily ethics decisions that have consequences to others. Your fellow physicians, Ian, have reported in surveys by a MAJORITY that it's ethically OK to cheat an insurance company in order to get a patient's treatment paid for. Folks in my line of work who travel sometimes pad their expense accounts. Folks in my father's line of work think insider trading is OK if you don't get caught. Meanwhile, I believe you don't cheat insurance companies, I don't pad my accounts, and my father survived a major SEC investigation because he was the ONLY broker who wasn't cheating.

At the end of the day, Ian, it's individual ethical decisions. We think those little white lies and "minor" infractions won't have an impact on others until the day everything blows up in the face. And meanwhile, others suffer from these lapses in character.

And you may or may not like GW Bush and his approach to things. But at least the guy TRIES to work within the rule of law (domestic or international) to justify his agenda.

I'm primarily interested in hearing a more convincing renunciation of illegal techniques (happy Bill? ) from our officials and maybe, oh, letting the UN investigate concerns.

Generally it's inappropriate to comment when charges are being filed and trials are under way. Our own system presumes innocence until proven guilty. I see no reason to abandon those practices.

I believe the actions speak louder than the words that GW's opponents want for their next political campaigns. Those who did wrong either are now being punished, or have charges against them. And that's the way it should be.

Meanwhile, letting the U.N. monitor things at Gitmo is like letting the fox in the henhouse. No way, Jose! The International Red Cross is good enough for me.

- Bill

[IJ]

Well, Bill... I guess that was all your belief?

C'mon. If the government tries to fit the law to it's plan, rather than the other way around, and there are as part of our interrogation plan some techniques that many would characterize as inappropriate AND some poorly supervised wardens do things not terribly different, you think it's a paranoid delusion that the culture of Bush's prisons lead to Abu ghraib?

Well, at least I'm not alone in this. No one has yet to refute Annas's article which was carefully scrutinized, then published in a first tier journal, and was well reviewed on that publication.

So call me crazy. The theory, however, is not. And I don't see how those individual ethics decisions affect your opinion. We all face them, so, errors don't matter? Or what? There are tough calls for a lot of us but let's remember one thing--if I get caught bending an insurance term to get a patient vital medical care, I won't feel shame. I'll feel like I tried to do the right thing in an imperfect world. (The comparison to business confuses me--they're in it to make money, right, or they'd be nonprofits / charities, correct?) Do you think that this is how the Abu ghraib guards felt? Like they did the most correct thing and some technicality made it improper?

If they DID feel this way its because they were taught that way. Or not educated in how to treat prisoners. If not, I still wonder why the supervision was so light for people not generally trained as wardens. And why the responsibility ended at the lowest end of the totem pole.

Do I want some official to be dissolved in acid over this? No. I wanted someone to say that when your people run amok with rare exceptions that's a symptom of a larger problem and not some completely random, unexpected, no fault situation for all but the grunts.

I don't recall advocating that anyone abandon their right to self incrimination while trials or investigations were ongoing.

Keep in mind: these little errors they made several times in a row and documented in photos caused us more headaches than Durbin's one time mistake. Why are you upset about only one? And if you are going to say he knew what he was doing and they weren't appropriately trained, as you seem to imply when you point out the former prison trained people should have known better--then whose job was it to train them, and why don't you care it wasn't done?

[Mills75]

yeah I guess you're right Panther I have been through some things when I was younger but never anything that could equal war but I guess I underestimate the human capacity to adapt with that post. I do think you're correct and I would hope so also.

Jeff