The reality of evil, and the symbolism of religion

[fivedragons]

Since this is the tough issues forum, I thought I would just throw this out into the ether, to chum the ocean so to speak.

In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church is the most blasphemous, evil, hippocritical, and indeed satanic institution in the history of the world.

Terms like blasphemous and satanic only really apply if one believes in the basic tenets of the bible, that the church was supposedly founded on.

In other words, one wouldn't be likely to call something "satanic" unless one understood the meaning of the word in the context that has been communicated in the bible and various christian theologies.

You can't really call something "blasphemous" unless you understand the meaning of the word as it applies in the bible and teachings of the "mother of all christian churches."

Before anyone replies, I hope you have a basic understanding of the history and motives behind the actions of the Roman Catholic Clergy.

After all, words are one thing, actions are quite another.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

on a side note, if you will allow it ......

My theory is that the one God created more than one religion to save us from the tyranny of any one religion.......

Merry Chrtistmas, Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanza, Merry Eid, & well wishes for all for a safe & festive holiday season.......

Garsh, it used to be so easy.....seasons (secular) greetings.....

[fivedragons]

Peace and love.

[mikemurphy]

Don't forget Festivus for the rest of us!

[cxt]

Five

No fan of the church myself......but "in the history of the world" is a pretty large sample size and thus not sure that its all that accurate.

Most of the churchs big ticket mass killings were 1000 years ago. (or at the very least many, many, many 100's of years)
The pogroms of Hitler, Stalin and Mao are much more contemperious...and to me, much more indefensable

Its a pretty big tent---the same church that is responsible and yes they are IMO responsible for the decades of abuse children also produced Mother Teresa...which doses not BTW balance it out, but there is certainly more going on than just wrongdoing.

Besides as the church defines it, their actions are neither "blaspomous" nor "satanic."

[Valkenar]

Since this is the tough issues forum, I thought I would just throw this out into the ether, to chum the ocean so to speak.

In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church is the most blasphemous, evil, hippocritical, and indeed satanic institution in the history of the world.

Terms like blasphemous and satanic only really apply if one believes in the basic tenets of the bible, that the church was supposedly founded on.

In other words, one wouldn't be likely to call something "satanic" unless one understood the meaning of the word in the context that has been communicated in the bible and various christian theologies.

Well, this is interesting, but I'm not prepared to say that I'm sufficiently well-versed in Christian theology to say that the Roman Catholic church is satanic. Can you maybe explain this? Use whatever terms you like, anything I don't understand I'll look up. At first glance, your statement just seems to be the opposite of what I would normally think, but since you seem to have a specific kind of framework in mind for this discussion, I'd be interested to hear more of your thinking on the subject before I jump in.

[fivedragons]

I'm not a theologist and I can't quote the bible. I've also never belonged to a religion, but I've read some of the bible, participated in various religious ceremonies of different kinds, and have thought a bit about the nature of religion over the years, it being a pervasive aspect of societal thought.

Some examples of what might be considered "satanic", or serving the devil, as opposed to the spirit of creation:

Electing someone to the head of a statehood, who is proclaimed to be the voice of god.

Deleting and changing the ten commandments under the authority of the replacement christ, I mean the pope.

Sunday is not the seventh day, ask any priest.

Selling indulgences. God for money.

Excommunication. How can a man cut you off from the source of life?

Masquerading as a spiritual institution in order amass power and control over the people of the world. It's not a spiritual institution, although many of it's members might be spiritual people. It's a state.

Persecuting countless people who found a personal relationship with christ/god, who didn't follow the rules of the new god, I mean the pope.

Outlawing the possession of bibles by lay people in the Dark ages. The zenith of the RC church's power was called the "Dark Ages"

Killing and torturing people for purely economic and political reasons under the guise of heresy. They are the world's preeminent pioneers in the manufacture of flesh tearing devices.

Causing their followers to call on an assortment of entities for intercession, rather than god in man.

Harboring child rapists and facilitating their actions by shuffling them around to new groups of victims.

Causing man to view himself as a sinful being who needs to renounce his creation, by the god who made him in his image. Generally turning the teachings of christ upside down, while invoking his name for control of people's minds.

Persecution of saints and monks throughout history, who were arguably the only people seeking what christ taught, and then profiting off their blood and suffering.

In general, causing people to turn away from seeking a relationship with the creation, by taking a story of self sacrifice in the name of love, and using it to cast an evil pall of fear dishonesty and repression over the consciousness of mankind.

Besides, they wear black suits.

[Valkenar]

Electing someone to the head of a statehood, who is proclaimed to be the voice of god.

Well, Bill could probably recite catholic doctrine better than I, but my understanding is that the authority of the Catholic church is based on a verse which states that peter is to continue the establishment of the church after Jesus's death.

What I just gleaned from ye olde internet:

Matthew 16:18 says "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

This seems a little thin to me, but I'm not a Christian so this part doesn't seem much thinner than the rest of it.

Deleting and changing the ten commandments under the authority of the replacement christ, I mean the pope.

How so?

Selling indulgences. God for money.

Certainly the catholic church has done many unsavory (to say the least) things in its career. However, that doesn't mean that the Roman Catholic religion is at fault. The essential problem is that the Roman Catholic church was immensely powerful at one time, and it's historically, it's nearly inevitable that power like that will breed corruption and misbehavior.

Excommunication. How can a man cut you off from the source of life?

Calvin's view:
"... the censure of the Church, which does not consign those who are excommunicated to perpetual ruin and damnation, but assures them, when they hear their life and manners condemned, that perpetual damnation will follow if they do not repent." Excommunication is basically a warning, under this view. The church doesn't have the power to cut you off from God, and you can always be redeemed or repent, the church just tells you that you've screwed up and are in serious trouble, mister.

Masquerading as a spiritual institution in order amass power and control over the people of the world. It's not a spiritual institution, although many of it's members might be spiritual people. It's a state.

The Vatican certainly is a state, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove that the Roman Catholic church itself is not a spiritual institution. Can you define what you mean by a spiritual institution?

Persecuting countless people who found a personal relationship with christ/god, who didn't follow the rules of the new god, I mean the pope.

Roman Catholicism is far from unique in persecuting those who fail to see that their truth is the one truth. Virtually every religious group that comes into power has done it. It's just that the Roman church was more powerful for longer and had more opportunity to persecute.

I suppose if the question is "what institution has done the most evil in history" then it's probably hard to argue that the catholic church is a top contender, since it's been around so long and had so much opportunity. But if the question is "what institution is the most inherently evil" I think you'll have a lot more trouble beating out people lie the Nazi's, etc.

Causing their followers to call on an assortment of entities for intercession, rather than god in man.

Are you referring to the trinity? Or the saints?

Causing man to view himself as a sinful being who needs to renounce his creation, by the god who made him in his image.

What catholic doctrine is it that says man must renounce his creation? Maybe man is a sinful being. There's theologic support for the idea, so why not? You may not believe it, but they don't believe what you believe, either. What makes you right? It's just a different interpretation of the bible.

[Dale Houser]

I'm not a theologist and I can't quote the bible. I've also never belonged to a religion, but I've read some of the bible, participated in various religious ceremonies of different kinds, and have thought a bit about the nature of religion over the years, it being a pervasive aspect of societal thought.

Like anything, you really need to make a good attempt at studying/researching anything before making generalizations. From what you say here, you essentially know little about RC theology but then make sweeping assumptions. Roman Catholic, like Eastern Orthodox, theology is actually very humble and peaceful. BTW, I am not Roman Catholic. Also, be careful, 99% of Massachusetts is Roman Catholic.

What it all boils down to is people are imperfect and have and will commit crimes and atrocities in the name of religion or ideology. This imperfection is something all Christian denominations admit and try to rectify. And the RC Church is nothing compared to pre-and non-Judeo/Christian civilizations. Though this does not defend what has been done in the name of the Roman Catholic or any other church.

You may want to brush up on some Christian theology and history to see the difference between theology and the people who attempt to live by it. All major religions seek similar goals: Islam - submission to God, Buddhism - Enlightenment, Christianity - coming to living communion with God. And they are peaceful, except maybe for Islam - the Koran can be scary reading. I'm still not sure about it.

Anyway, try the following link for both RC and simple, non-RC theological explanations, there are plenty more detailed sites as well. This'll open a new can of worms for you.

http://www.newadvent.org/
http://www.oca.org/QAIndex.asp

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

[tigereye]

Without believing in God for many of us life would be without hope, filled with
suffer and will end in a personal fall.
For many of us God offers the ultimate solution for the problem of the suffering, for the wrong and for the dead.
He has given each of his follower a manner on which they can lead a life that gives them the immense joy of an
eternal gathering with Him .
God knew that there is only one way to save the mankind,-for now and for ever.
So He sent his only one Son to teach the mankind the way to live.
Jesus death was an unique offer to save the entire mankind
He was ready to die on the cross ,with all humiliation and pain.
He became a Hero. And He still saves thousands life every day!

Killing,sacrifice yourself in the name of God, or being satanic, or evil is not a particular feature of the Catholicism.
Think about the airplane hijackers on 11 September 2001, they believed well sincerely in the affair, for which they died.
They murdered on a violent manner in the name of their God.
The hijackers based their believe on religious traditions that had been handed over many generations.
What's the difference,that they killed with more sophisticated weapon?

It is a shame that we live in a world that has the tendency to kill and to deceive - a world, that has no need for peace and love.
Judge only those with misbehavior.

[fivedragons]

Justin, please bear with me.


"Well, Bill could probably recite catholic doctrine better than I, but my understanding is that the authority of the Catholic church is based on a verse which states that peter is to continue the establishment of the church after Jesus's death.

What I just gleaned from ye olde internet:

Matthew 16:18 says "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against"

The papacy was formed with political expediency in mind and had nothing to do with anyone named Peter.




"Deleting and changing the ten commandments under the authority of the replacement christ, I mean the pope.


How so?"

See the sentence under it, and then ask a priest or a jew.



"Selling indulgences. God for money.


Certainly the catholic church has done many unsavory (to say the least) things in its career. However, that doesn't mean that the Roman Catholic religion is at fault."

There is no Roman Catholic religion, Justin. There is a story about someone named Jesus Christ and the people who came to him for guidance. He instructed his followers using parables that illustrated certain aspects of spiritual law. Spiritual law wasn't invented by anyone and there is no reason to enforce it because it is immutable. It's just the way things work.

It's like the laws of physics.

There is only Roman Catholic dogma. Dogma is a euphemism for bullshit.


"Excommunication. How can a man cut you off from the source of life?


Calvin's view:
"... the censure of the Church, which does not consign those who are excommunicated to perpetual ruin and damnation, but assures them, when they hear their life and manners condemned, that perpetual damnation will follow if they do not repent." Excommunication is basically a warning, under this view. The church doesn't have the power to cut you off from God, and you can always be redeemed or repent, the church just tells you that you've screwed up and are in serious trouble, mister."

This is preposterous. There is not one single human being on this planet that has the ability to judge another human being's relationship with god. God is a word that is used to symbolize something that is by definition beyond human comprehension. People make laws to control each other, and that is called the state. The state has no ability to effect spiritual law. That is like saying that congress can repeal gravity.



"Masquerading as a spiritual institution in order amass power and control over the people of the world. It's not a spiritual institution, although many of it's members might be spiritual people. It's a state.


The Vatican certainly is a state, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove that the Roman Catholic church itself is not a spiritual institution. Can you define what you mean by a spiritual institution?"

There is no such thing as a spiritual institution. The very thought is mind boggling. What the hell is a spiritual institution? It's an oxymoron.


"Persecuting countless people who found a personal relationship with christ/god, who didn't follow the rules of the new god, I mean the pope.


Roman Catholicism is far from unique in persecuting those who fail to see that their truth is the one truth. Virtually every religious group that comes into power has done it. It's just that the Roman church was more powerful for longer and had more opportunity to persecute.

I suppose if the question is "what institution has done the most evil in history" then it's probably hard to argue that the catholic church is a top contender, since it's been around so long and had so much opportunity. But if the question is "what institution is the most inherently evil" I think you'll have a lot more trouble beating out people lie the Nazi's, etc."

The Nazis were very small fry in the grand scheme, Justin. And they weren't insidious in the least. Satan, as described in the bible is very cunning.

As far as persecuting people, well the church is supposedly founded on the life and teachings of someone who didn't feel the need to persecute anyone. Think about it.

"Causing their followers to call on an assortment of entities for intercession, rather than god in man.


Are you referring to the trinity? Or the saints?"

At the time I wrote this, I was thinking of Mary. What difference does it make? What's wrong with this picture?


"Causing man to view himself as a sinful being who needs to renounce his creation, by the god who made him in his image.


What catholic doctrine is it that says man must renounce his creation? Maybe man is a sinful being. There's theologic support for the idea, so why not? You may not believe it, but they don't believe what you believe, either. What makes you right? It's just a different interpretation of the bible."

Justin, do you really believe that you are a "sinful being"? If you sin, aren't you sinning against yourself? Do you need "theologic support" for the idea that you are some kind of mistake? Maybe there is some part of you that doesn't really feel that way, and understands what is right and wrong without having to worry about what other people say they believe. You see there are societal laws, based on consensus, and then their are the laws of existence.

Render unto ceasar.....

____________
- Justin Powell

[NEB]

...even if I am late to it.

The Nazis were very small fry in the grand scheme, Justin. And they weren't insidious in the least. Satan, as described in the bible is very cunning.

What? The Nazis were NOT insidious? Maybe not by the time they rolled the tanks into Poland. But Hitler's rise to power could be called insidious.

Anyway,

There is no such thing as a spiritual institution. The very thought is mind boggling. What the hell is a spiritual institution? It's an oxymoron.

To clarify a discussion such as this one it might be wise to define some terms. What, exactly is the meaning of "spiritual"? A few minutes tangling with that question can be quite enlightening.

[AAAhmed46]

I'm not a theologist and I can't quote the bible. I've also never belonged to a religion, but I've read some of the bible, participated in various religious ceremonies of different kinds, and have thought a bit about the nature of religion over the years, it being a pervasive aspect of societal thought.

Like anything, you really need to make a good attempt at studying/researching anything before making generalizations. From what you say here, you essentially know little about RC theology but then make sweeping assumptions. Roman Catholic, like Eastern Orthodox, theology is actually very humble and peaceful. BTW, I am not Roman Catholic. Also, be careful, 99% of Massachusetts is Roman Catholic.

What it all boils down to is people are imperfect and have and will commit crimes and atrocities in the name of religion or ideology. This imperfection is something all Christian denominations admit and try to rectify. And the RC Church is nothing compared to pre-and non-Judeo/Christian civilizations. Though this does not defend what has been done in the name of the Roman Catholic or any other church.

You may want to brush up on some Christian theology and history to see the difference between theology and the people who attempt to live by it. All major religions seek similar goals: Islam - submission to God, Buddhism - Enlightenment, Christianity - coming to living communion with God. And they are peaceful, except maybe for Islam - the Koran can be scary reading. I'm still not sure about it.

Anyway, try the following link for both RC and simple, non-RC theological explanations, there are plenty more detailed sites as well. This'll open a new can of worms for you.

http://www.newadvent.org/
http://www.oca.org/QAIndex.asp

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

If your talking about surah 8 and 9, well it deals specifically with war fare it self and the rules of war. It's pretty clear.

What translation are you reading?

Have you read the old testament?


To talk about Catholicism,, my issue with it is that it seemed that somehow it became 'cool' to make fun of the catholic church and catholics.
My aboriginal studies teacher would almost always use the term 'christian' and 'catholic' interchangably, not paying much attention to differences there is between catholic Christianity and protestant/evangelical christianity. Often, if some other christian group does something stupid, catholics will get lumped with them(as well as other christian demonications) why does this happen?

[Halford]

The problem with this discussion is that it tends to be far too emotional in content and less objective, and somehow ignores history and other things that should be discussed more fully. As for the Catholic Church, which is a complex study in itself, the present Pope seems to me to be one that has an intellectual grasp of things that others seemed to lack, if I read the interview he gave, correctly,which has been published in a book. Having been exposed to all kinds of religious cults, creeds, churches, religions and so forth,either by reading, observing, attending,etc. I have to say that most people end up with some sort of belief that often defies reality and their own being and essence, as they continue to believe in an immortal soul, a hereafter, and the like,believing that the petty personalities they find so pleasurable and admirable will be ressurrected and life as they now live it will be even better after death,etc. All religion is simply NON-SENSE. That is you have to realize that the ordinary senses cannot grasp or view or understand what lies outside the senses,no matter how materialistic everyone tries to make 'spiritual' things. Aside from the materialization of all life we now have the quantification of all life, namely, an assigment of numbers to everything,which is part of the present process of DIGITALIZATION, namely,the abandonment of CYCLES for STRAIGHT LINES which mean greater control and less freedom for life and man. Take it from there if you can.

[Halford]

Since the term SIN is mentioned, it has little to do with EVIL,because sin merely means 'MISSING THE MARK' which comes from, if I am not mistaken, from the use of archery,possibly warfare with slings, arrows, spears,etc. You miss the bullseye,or the target. Therefore, you sin. It is akin to the Zen Archery,etc. that the more you strive, the more you tend to sin. Take it from there. Sin arises from ancient notions of a static,ideal, perfect world in which change(another name for sin, death and decay) is evil. Lucifer, often equated with the devil, is known as 'The Light Bringer' or Prometheus and he caused a 'change in Heaven and also earth' as a result. The notions of heaven and hell are static notions, however horrendous the imagination renders the abyss of hell and the joys of Heaven. As Milton's Satan or Lucifer said,"Better to reign in Hell that Serve in Heaven". If earth is hell, and many have said that 'hell is here on earth and that life is hell' then it also means that life on earth and so forth is heaven. Personally, I think that life on earth is much more than we realize it to be. Take it from there.