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Notice of Rules...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:44 pm
by Panther
Notice of Rules for the Tough Issues forum.

For various reasons I feel it is necessary to let everyone know of a few rules and guidelines for this forum.

1) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. If you don't want to discuss tough issues or can't handle it, there are other forums that have an enormous range of subject matters.

2) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. But people don't need to be bombarded with off-topic content in the middle of threads on specific subjects. If you wish to make a comment, please feel free, but keep in mind that some things are offensive to others for various reasons and be considerate of that reality.

3) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. Therefore, if you wish to post a topic that may be of a sensitive nature, (again) feel free. BUT, keep the title of the topic from being explicit and put a warning of contents in the title so that it can be avoided for those who wish to avoid it. Regarding the titles... if it is something that my momma (not yours... mine... and she's an old-fashioned prude :wink: ) would be embarassed by, don't do it.

4) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. SO, posters are generally given a lot of latitude and it is expected that to a certain degree posters will don their asbestos suits and thicker martial arts skin. However, always keep in mind that personal insults, threats, derogatory comments, non-public information, invasion of privacy, etc directed at another poster has repercussions. Consider that such actions do not further your own position on a subject of debate, but may be the cause of loss of posting priviledges if the behaviour continues. (It is my perogative on if, when and how many "warnings" an individual will get...)

5) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. Topics and posts on this forum are not required to be "Politically Correct" and may contain crude or vulgar language. If something like that bothers you, you may post your thoughts and concerns in the thread or to me in a private message. You may also post those concerns by starting a new thread to discuss it as yet another "tough issue" for us to debate and discuss.

6) This is the "Tough Issues" forum. (Get that yet?) And I, as the moderator, am not afraid to wield an axe. BUT, I do not want to do so. With that in mind, there may be occasion where posters are requested to moderate their comments on their own in a specific thread. IF a poster wishes to start a new thread to simply rant and rave, that's fine... first re-read these rules. :wink:

7) I want to give lots of latitude... (I truly do). That means posters must take a certain amount of personal responsibility and act like adults. I want contributions from everyone on everything... I want everyone to feel welcome and willing to contribute... I want everyone to feel free to voice their ideas, thoughts and opinions... I want people to not be afraid to stop in and join in... It is actually my wish that this forum not have any rules. (See what happens...)

8) We won't all agree on things. That's why this is the "Tough Issues" forum. (sinking in yet?) But I, personally, expect everyone to be able to make reasonable articulable points for their positions in the discussion or debate. I hope that I have demonstrated that when I have posted. In some instances, we all make points based on our personal "gut" feelings. While I don't have a problem with that per se, I would suggest that a little research to shore up your position always helps (sidenote: consider the sources... there is a lot of information out there and, unfortunately, plenty of it is garbage) .

9) It is my perogative to change, break or otherwise modify the rules at my whim if folks don't seem to get it.

Now... Have at it...

Take care and (try to) be good to each other...

Added 2nd announcement to this post: GEM

Everyone has been doing a very good job staying (relatively) civil in the current discussions.

Please ... Keep it up!

This being the "Tough Issues" forum... and considering that we are all adults... I will allow quite a bit of latitude in discussions.

However , what may be fine for some in a discussion, might also cross the boundaries of "good taste" to another... and vice versa. With that in mind, I'm requesting that everyone use discretion in their discussions of potentially sensitive topics or subject matter and take each other's feelings (at least somewhat) into consideration.

Thank you... Keep up the intelligent, thought-provoking discussions!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled threads...

Take care and be good to each other...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:31 pm
by Deep Sea
GEM and I conducted a discussion with each other this morning and I agree that your set of rules above is a straightforward no-nonsense appropriate set of rules. I also feel that you have put considerable thought process into constructing them and formulating the best of what you want. Being a moderator is often a thankless job, and it is well noted and appreciated, the care and consideration you put into your work.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:42 pm
by Akil Todd Harvey

While I feel it is entirely useful to have a set of rules, The differential enforcement of those rules is making this forum a rather distasteful and untrustworthy place to post.

I agree that being a moderator is a tough job, but feel that the would likely be easier if it were done more fairly. Be equally tough on those whose opinions you disagree with as those whom you agree wholeheartedly and you will find your task far easier........

Don says.........Being a liberal means you never have to address your own nonsense I reckon

It is rather disappointing that the above comment was allowed to stand as it was declared by the moderator to be "not a direct insult at any one person".

Are insults allowed as long as they are ill-defined or only if they are aimed at a whole group of people?

What ever happeneed to rule number two? Or is that rule only enforced on those of the liberal persuasion?

Rule number 7 is particularly interesting.....

7) I want to give lots of latitude... (I truly do). That means posters must take a certain amount of personal responsibility and act like adults. I want contributions from everyone on everything... I want everyone to feel welcome and willing to contribute... I want everyone to feel free to voice their ideas, thoughts and opinions... I want people to not be afraid to stop in and join in... It is actually my wish that this forum not have any rules. (See what happens...)

Give latitude all you want, but I would hazard to guess that it is the liberals who feel unwelcome and the conservatives who feel like they have lots of latitude......

Tis my opionion and feel free to ban me if you dont like my opinion.....

I was banned from the Self Defense realities Discussion area for unknown reasons (still waiting for Sensei Canna to answer my PM asking why I was banned), but most likely because the rules are not enforced fairly ........

And dont bother offering more cheese to go with the whine as we all know that nothing whines more than a ............


PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:45 pm
by Akil Todd Harvey
Final Note:

INteresting Rule number 9 is:

9) It is my perogative to change, break or otherwise modify the rules at my whim if folks don't seem to get it.

sounds like the golden rule.....he who has the gold makes the rules......

Todd. . .

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:09 pm
by gmattson
OK, you may have a reason to be upset over your treatment at the "Reality" forum. Van exercises his "hammer" as he sees fit.

My take on the forums has been repeated many times:

We offer multiple forums to expore topics. Moderators are human and may not have mastered the art of VSD. However, if posters are careful, regardless of their points of view, they get treated respectfully. Being human, the moderators often are a bit more forgiving/understanding of those points of view that are in line with theirs.

When visiting a forum where the moderator and majority of posters are Libertarians, a Democrat would be well advised to post respectfully, whereas the moderator's friends' harsh comments will be seen as "right-on".

We have a number of forum slots for the taking. All you have to do is give it a name, purpose and like Panther, set up the rules and moderate in as fair a manner possible. Then you can ban the conservatives if you desire and discuss any subject you wish. (within reason)

You see. . . We are an equal opportunity website. So if you don't like Panther's rules or the way he enforces them, show us the "right" way. OK?

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:51 pm
by Panther
You know... Akil (or Todd or ATH if you prefer), You don't really know what you're talking about. As I pointed out in my last post on that thread, "just because I tried to handle things privately rather than publicly doesn't mean that that I wasn't in touch with everyone involved."

I know and freely admit that I have a strong libertarian, constitutional political leaning. And if you think for one second that I haven't absolutely gone out of my way to give even more latitude and even more leeway to those who I may disagree with even a little bit, then you are the one with the problem... not me. I have done most of my "moderating" privately and even though I won't put everything out in public, I have been pretty calm in my public comments to folks. I have been a hell of a lot harsher in my private comments to folks and, in truth (even though there's no way for me to prove it), I've come down on the "liberal bashers" harder than the other way.

I have been fair with you, but your response in this instance is a nice shot at me and this forum's rules. If you want to exercise your right to make snide comments in that fashion, you should also realize that such actions certainly don't make a moderator feel like giving any leeway.

I know I came down on Gene this morning. He had it coming. I also came down on Don and Gene in private before. And you know what. They're both nice guys... opinionated as all hell, but nice guys. I'm also opinionated and that is one reason why I'm careful about what I post in this forum. It doesn't mean that I don't jump in, it just means that I'm even more careful here than in other forums where another moderator can admonish me if I get overly passionate or opinionated on something. Gene and Don grate on each other... they grate on others... still others like one or the other of them... That's just the way things are. I gave Don credit for trying to ratchet things down and this afternoon, I see that Gene has calmed down and posted a nice thoughtful response... so he, too, has ratcheted things down. I give him lots of credit for that. They're both passionate and I'd guess that they'd find that they have plenty in common if they got to know each other... (As I have).

YOU... on the other hand, seem to have simply chosen a side and decided that you don't like what I've done to handle things... regardless of not knowing exactly what or how things were handled. Your response is to come where I've posted the forum rules and make snide and derogatory comments directed at me. Since you've stated that your final thought is that my golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules... (An unfair assessment in my opinion)... Why don't I just go ahead and prove you right and we make that your final post in this forum... shall we?

As I said before... I put a lot of thought into the rules, I haven't gone in and edited them, I'm not going to change them to give one side or the other an advantage, and I certainly don't need someone who can't give constructive suggestions coming in and acting all holier than thou while taking cheap shots at me.

I've tried to make this a forum where people can bring up all manner of issues and take different sides of those issues. But to keep things from degenerating, I've also suggested that people start new threads rather than reducing topics to name-calling flamefests. It isn't my intention to go around banning everyone who slips in a negative comment or calls someone a name... Rather, I'm trying to let people get used to debatin, discussing, and dealing with each other in a calmer manner. That takes time... for everyone. I'm trying to let people be passionate and opinionated without resorting to a flamefest. People are learning. Some quicker than others. That's fine. It takes time. I've suggested that people can start a new thread simply to rant and rave... from whatever side, subject or angle they want... I support peoples' freedom to have different opinions about different topics... and I also support my freedom in not having to put up with such uninformed inflamatory garbage as you've just directed towards me.

Think about it...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 7:00 pm
by Rick Wilson

I don’t post here very often, but I see you keep things pretty calm particularly for the topics being discussed. Whatever you are doing is working.

Good job.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:23 pm
by Deep Sea
Dear Mr. Panther.

You know I recently desired stringency in certain specific areas. And then you formulated the above rules which were slightly more lax than I expected. Remember that cliche that seems to have been around forever that begins like "You can please some of the people...?" With that perspective in mind, the rules which you posted seem to be optimally appropriate and considerate. Thank you for your troubles.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:06 pm
by Akil Todd Harvey
OK, you may have a reason to be upset over your treatment......

Of course I have a reason. The BIG question is how reasonable is my reason.

Perhaps as a means of declaring how things are, it should be referred to as "fair and balanced" so we will all know what to expect.......

Lots of liberal bashing will be encouraged.........Name calling will be allowed as long as it is in defense of the majority argument...........Dissent will be seen for what it is, treasonous debauchery that must be put down with all haste..........Flippant responses and sarcasm are encouraged on the right and despised on the left.......

Have a Nice Day......


Selective response. . .

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:28 pm
by gmattson
Isn't the way to resolve problems. I replied to yiour posts with a number of comments regarding the forums. You picked out one sentence and liberally poured fuel on it (then lit it as you disappeared). This method of discussion, in my humble estimation, is not the way to resolve problems or to contribute to a discussion in a positive manner.

Panther outlined a set of rules which he has enforced in a fair manner. Instead of talking about the past, re-read the rules and lets hear you discuss the issues as others seem to be doing.

And. . . you can show us all how a forum should be conducted. . . :)

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:42 pm
by Deep Sea
Reads like he is showing us how he would run a forum if he had one to run.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:11 pm
by Panther
Akil Todd Harvey,

Rather than tossing out your invectives and making your snide comments under the rules announcement for this forum...

Why don't you start a thread? You are free to do so (with the guidelines which are in the rules of this forum). Perhaps you would like to make the topic about how you haven't been allowed to voice your opinion completely... or how the enforcement of the rules is biased in your opinion... or how those with a "left" leaning attitude aren't treated fairly... or how those with a "right" leaning attitude get all the breaks from the moderator...

You can do that if you wish, but please stop cluttering up the rules announcement area. Also if you want to "be let loose", then don't cry foul when others are "let loose" as well. I'm not going to get into this anymore with you here on the rules announcement thread.

As you can tell, I'm so unfair that I've stopped you (and everyone else) from being critical or posting such things as you've spewed forth on this thread... However, I will give you one simple choice... Start another thread, put it there and let everyone respond. If you continue to drop invectives and snide comments in this (the rules) thread area, I will ask GEM-Sensei to ban you from this forum... without further warning.

Ave Atque Vale

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:34 pm
Of course. Deep Sea, (Allen) passed on shortly after his last post.

For me that is tough, but not necessarily a tough issue.

My apologies for bending the rules.

An acquaitance on Okinawa said: "Allen Appeared to be have been given a big pat on the back with a handful of s--t for his writing"

Sad really.