The Fruits of Political Correctness

This is Dave Young's Forum.
Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!

Moderator: Dave Young

The Fruits of Political Correctness

Postby MikeK » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:04 am

Hawaii Reporter
Freedom to Report Real News

Native Hawaiians Seek Self-governing Body
Sen. Akaka quote: Bill Could Mean Eventual Independence for Hawaiians
By National Public Radio, 8/17/2005 8:22:38 AM

Editor's Note: Here is the complete National Public Radio transcript from Aug. 16, 2005 with Anchor Steve Inskeep, Reporter Martin Kaste and various guests.

This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Steve Inskeep.

Congress is considering legislation that would give native Hawaiians their own government. It would essentially grant them political status similar to that of Native American tribes. Here's NPR's Martin Kaste.

(Soundbite of surf; birds)

MARTIN KASTE reporting:

You'll find no more potent symbol of Hawaiian independence than 'Iolani Palace, a Victorian-style mansion in downtown Honolulu.

Ms. ZETA KUPCHOY(ph) (Tour Guide): 'Iolani Palace is the last official residence of the monarchs who ruled Hawaii.

KASTE: When Zeta Kupchoy gives tours of the palace, she points out the corner suite where Hawaii's last monarch, Queen Lilioukalani, was imprisoned after her overthrow in 1893. The coup against the queen was organized by American businessmen backed by the US Marines. Kupchoy says the palace is a reminder of what was lost.

Ms. KUPCHOY: We were an independent nation, recognized internationally by over 70 different nations, and that's the symbolism, that we were a proud country all our own. We were our own country.

KASTE: Today, the old Hawaiian national flag, which is now the state flag, flies again from the palace roof. The US flag is conspicuous by its absence, and the palace grounds have become a rallying place for native Hawaiians.

(Soundbite of man chanting)

KASTE: Earlier this month, thousands came out to protest a recent appeals court decision striking down the Hawaiians-only admissions policy at a prominent private school. Illegal racial bias, the judges said. The problem is favoring natives is the whole point of the Kamehameha Schools, which are funded by the estate of a 19th-century princess who wanted to help her fellow natives.

And she wasn't the only one. After the overthrow, the old Hawaiian royalty often used its lands to set up institutions to benefit natives, but in 21st century America, this ethnic exclusivity has come under attack in the courts. Natives, who are now only about 20 percent of the state population, worry that their special institutions are in danger of being swallowed up, and that's where the Akaka Bill comes in.

Senator DANIEL AKAKA (Democrat, Hawaii): It creates a government-to-government relationship with the United States. KASTE: Democratic Senator Dan Akaka, himself a native, wants Congress to let Hawaiians re-establish their national identity. He says his bill would give them a kind of legal parity with tribal governments on the mainland, but he says this sovereignty could eventually go further, perhaps even leading to outright independence.

Sen. AKAKA: That could be. As far as what's going to happen at the other end, I'm leaving it up to my grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

KASTE: The native Hawaiian bill leaves many important details unresolved. Once established, the new governing entity is supposed to negotiate with the U.S. to settle major issues such as legal jurisdiction and land ownership. It even puts off defining who would qualify as a citizen of the native nation. The bill's vagueness alarms some non-natives such as Dick Roland.

Mr. DICK ROWLAND (The Grassroot Institute): It's empty, and it's got an enormous sucking machine in it that is going to ****** in there all these people and all this land and so forth.

KASTE: Rowland, who moved to Hawaii three decades ago, is the president of a local public policy group called The Grassroot Institute which has opposed the bill. One of his collaborators is attorney Bill Burgess, who's argued in court against the preferences for natives.

Mr. BILL BURGESS (Attorney): Creating a new nation and giving the citizens of that nation political privilege that other citizens don't have, not to mention assets and all kinds of other privileges, that's all about inequality.

(Soundbite of birds)

KASTE: But for some native Hawaiians, the Akaka Bill doesn't go far enough.

Mr. BUMPY KANAHELE (Native Hawaiian): My Hawaiian name is U'u Koanoa(ph). Of course, the American name I've got, it's Bumpy Kanahele.

KASTE: Kanahele is a burly man who calls himself the head of the Nation of Hawaii. At the moment, his domain consists of a small village nestled in the shadow of green mountains on Oahu. The village also flies the flag of Hawaii, but it flies upside down as a sign of distress over what residents see as the illegal occupation by the United States. Kanahele is a prominent figure in the independence movement, which received a boost in 1993 when Congress formally apologized for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii. Kanahele says that apology opened what he calls a can of worms for the United States.

Mr. KANAHELE: They never thought that Hawaiians would take the road to restoring their independence. Well, what do you expect? You just admitted to a crime -- Right? -- the crime of the overthrow. KASTE: After the congressional apology, Kanahele says, native Hawaiians started to think seriously about independence, and he says the Akaka Bill is an attempt to divert natives toward more tribal-style sovereignty.

In Washington, the bill's prospects are unclear. The House passed a version back in 2000, but in the Senate, the bill has been stuck in an open-ended debate. Leaders say they'll try to get a vote on the legislation in September. The Justice Department has recommended a few changes, such as a safeguard for the U.S. military presence on the island, something the bill's supporters see as a positive step. They believe it means the White House is willing to accept some version of native Hawaiian self-government.

Guest Editorials...
© 2005 Hawaii Reporter, Inc.
I was dreaming of the past...
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:36 pm

KASTE: When Zeta Kupchoy gives tours of the palace, she points out the corner suite where Hawaii's last monarch, Queen Lilioukalani, was imprisoned after her overthrow in 1893. The coup against the queen was organized by American businessmen backed by the US Marines.

Did you miss that part? We invaded and took over their country because we wanted another jumping off stop to Asia and a fun resort where people could make money. And we wanted to invade it before the Japanese did the same thing. What is too PC - their desire to regain their sovereignty?
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby MikeK » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:16 pm

It's more complicated than that Dana, after all Kamehameha the Great violently conquered the Islands to create his kingdom.

The issue is that Hawaii had quite a bit of immigration from Asia and Europe from the 1800's on. So is it acceptable for the Polynisian Hawaiians to be racist against Asians and whites?
I was dreaming of the past...
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:30 pm

Well actually they're being racist against anyone who isn't native Hawaiian. So that includes a much much longer list than Asian and Causasian.

Heritage today is an interesting animal. Promotion of heritage is equally challenging. How do you promote your ways without seeming to diminish the ways of others?

As I've said about training - is moving towards one thing always moving away from another? My personal koan right now.

After the Marines took over the island we let the Christian missionaries run the educational system for a good long while while the businessmen set up their plantations and developed the economy. That led to a serious suppression of native traditions, dress, language, food, all that stuff. Definitely a multi-edge sword.

So while by the letter of the law excluding students of any race from the school is incorrect, I can definitely put myself in the shoes of the Native Hawaiians and ask why they should not be allowed some kind of institution to help keep and promote the traditional ways of their people. With a little more vision they would have known that by opening the doors to all they could actually reach more people with their traditions and help to promote them...but sometimes when you still have a bitter taste in your mouth it is difficult to see clearly.
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby f.Channell » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:29 am

They are not the only state seeking self government.

I remember years ago Martha's Vinyard or Nantucket wanted out.

Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
User avatar
Posts: 3541
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

Postby Kevin Mackie » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:06 pm

There seems to be lots of conflicting information about who actually took over the Islands..

From Dana..

After the Marines took over the island

I need to do a bit more looking into this, but I couldn't find anything on the net under Marine Corps history about an overthrow of a legitimate Hawaiian government. I can't say that white businessmen weren't behind it, I just can't find any documentation that the Marines were involved. Any help educating me on that would be appreciated.


E Pluribus Unum?
Not in Hawaii.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

Messrs. Gorton and Brown are former senators for Washington and Colorado, respectively.

The Apology Resolution distorted historical truths. It falsely claimed that the U.S. participated in the wrongful overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani in 1893. The U.S. remained strictly neutral. It provided neither arms, nor economic assistance, nor diplomatic support to a band of Hawaiian insurgents, who prevailed without firing a single shot, largely because neither the Native Hawaiian numerical majority nor the queen's own government resisted the end of the Hawaiian Kingdom. The queen authored her own ouster by planning a coup against the Hawaii Constitution to recapture monarchical powers that had been lost in a strong democratic current. She later confided to Sen. George Hoar that annexation to the U.S. was the best thing that could have happened to Native Hawaiians.

Kaste doesn't seem to have his facts straight if the former senators are to be believed.

It seems that the politcal correctness started with the resolution. More rewriting of history.
Kevin Mackie
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am

Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:19 pm

something on television doesn't make it true, but usually American Experience tries to put up quality programming.

Granted - the synopsis below is a bit rosy and glosses over any mention of what was posted above. Probably all of it is true, as rarely is anything neat and tidy in politics.




On January 16, 1893, four boatloads of United States Marines armed with Gatling guns and hundreds of rounds of ammunition came ashore in Honolulu, capital of the independent Kingdom of Hawaii. As the Royal Hawaiian band played a concert at the Hawaiian Hotel, 162 troops marched through the streets of Honolulu, heading for the palace. The Queen of Hawaii, Lili'uokalani, looked down from her balcony as the troops took up their positions.


The following day, she surrendered at gunpoint, yielding her throne to the government of the United States. A provisional government led by wealthy white sugar growers assumed control of Hawaii and petitioned the US for annexation.

Born in 1838, Lili'uokalani was trained by missionaries in Western academic disciplines and the ways of polite American society. She was well-travelled and even attended Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee in 1887. Yet she never forgot her native language, was fiercely proud of Hawaiian traditions and was always loyal to her people. A talented composer, Lili'uokalani wrote more than 165 songs, including "Aloha Oe," probably the most widely recognized Hawaiian song.

In 1881 her brother, King Kalakaua, went on an extended journey around the world, leaving the 43-year-old Princess in charge. Although she had no experience governing, she soon had the chance to display her mettle when an epidemic of smallpox erupted, killing many Hawaiians. The source of the disease was Chinese laborers, brought by ship to work in Hawaii's sugar cane fields, the island's economic mainstay. To protect the Hawaiians, Lili'uokalani immediately closed the port, an act that infuriated the wealthy sugar growers.

"The outpouring of protest by the business community was tremendous," says historical researcher Glen Grant. "But she stood her ground. I think she clearly demonstrated that the welfare of her people was far more important than the profits for the business community."

Following her succession to the throne after her brother's death in 1891, Lili'uokalani would work secretly to frame a new constitution that would restore power to native Hawaiians. But two months into her reign, the US government effectively revoked Hawaii's favored position on the American sugar market and Lili'uokalani's kingdom was on the brink of economic collapse. The sugar growers were convinced there was only one way to survive-annexation to the United Sates.

The clash of interests that ensued drew plantation owners, native Hawaiians, the US government, and the Queen's cabinet into the fray. Eventually, Lili'uokalani would lose her throne and the Hawaiian people would lose their kingdom. Hawaii was recognized as part of the United States in 1898 by President William McKinley.

Production credits
Hawaii's Last Queen was written and produced by Vivian Ducat.
Editor: Susan Fanshel
Narrrator: Anna Deavere Smith
Cinematography: Robert Hanna
Original Music: Brian Keane

Executive producer: Margaret Drain. Series host: David McCullough.
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:26 pm

Here's a little more detail on the troups - again from a biased source but might help lead to neutral sources...

photos are availalbe on the original website.

American bluejackets and marines debarking from the U.S.S. Boston on January 17, 1893. They landed in Honolulu at the request of U.S Minister John Stevens to protect American lives and property and supported the American businessmen in overthrowing the Hawaiian monarchy. President Grover Cleveland and Congress later declared the overthrow with the help of the American military to be illegal and ordered the return of sovereignty to Queen Liliuokalani.

(Hawaii State Archives, Folder 36-3 Historic Events: Overthrow)

Bluejackets from the USS Boston occupy above Arlington Hotel grounds in Honolulu. Commander Lucien Young USN in charge. This was the childhood home of Queen Liliuokalani who the Americans under the guise of "protecting American lives" would illegally aid American businessmen in Honolulu to overthrow. January 1893.

Click on photo to retrieve large view (164K). (Hawaii State Archives, Record Group: 36-3, Historic Events: Overthrow; file: 259)

Captain Wiltse of the USS Boston (far left) with President Sanford Ballard Dole, president of the provisional government watching a parade of the American bluejackets and marines after overthrowing the Hawaiian Monarchy in 1893.

Click on photo to retrieve large view (121K). (Hawaii State Archives, Folder 36-3 Historic Events: Overthrow file# 280)
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:31 pm

and from the Navy...they are careful to say "at the time of the overthrow" so I doubt anyone will ever know exactly what happened. ... ost5-k.htm

Photo #: NH 56555

USS Boston (1887-1946)

Fine screen halftone reproduction of a photograph of the ship's landing force on duty at the Arlington Hotel, Honolulu, at the time of the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, January 1893. Lieutenant Lucien Young, USN, commanded the detachment, and is presumably the officer at right.
The original photograph is in the Archives of Hawaii. This halftone was published prior to about 1920.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph.

Online Image: 115KB; 740 x 475 pixels

link to the full size photo: ... h56555.jpg
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby MikeK » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:49 pm

I think Queen Liliuokalani took power because of an insurection, so she may not have been a Girl Scout herself.

But at what point do we "celebrate" diversity and at what point does the color of a mans skin not matter?
I was dreaming of the past...
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:58 pm

I don't the expiration date for oppression and occupation. There is a part of me that says "get over it" and there's another part of me that says "who are you to judge?" So I don't know. 1 year, 5 years, 50 years, 100 years, 500 years? One generation, two, seven?

Wouldn't it be nice if a little light went off and said "you can forget your past now, just live in the present and move forward. Forgive all that came before and let bygones be bygones. History doesn't matter. Oh but wait...when you forget history you are doomed to repeat it.

The magic 8 ball says that my thinking is cloudy and I must check back later...after coffee. :)
Did you show compassion today?
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Postby MikeK » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:19 pm

I think we're doomed to repeat it no matter what. :D

Need more coffee...
I was dreaming of the past...
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:26 pm

Interesting stuff.

The ramble goes on in my head as well, Dana. Sometimes I think the bloody Brits and Scots should get the hell out of Ireland. Their plight is/was no less tragic. But Ireland is getting over it, and becoming a world economic power. The other half of me, Lithuanian, remembers how the Russians transplanted half the population elsewhere after WWII, planted a bunch of Russians there (the population is now half Russian) and stole so much of the agricultural production that native Lithuanians starved. But it wasn't just the Russians. If you go back in history, it seems that anybody who was anybody invaded the Baltic countries. It just happened to be a piece of geography that all world powers wanted.

Smart people got the hell out of both those countries when the going got catastrophic. As they say, there are more Irish outside Ireland than there are within. They be a prolific lot, you know... :wink:

If you think about it, probably every walking person on this earth has a little DNA within that was not exactly welcomed. It's not to be condoned, but it's a fact of history.

Reparations? Yaaaawwwwwnnnnn...

I agree with Mike on two things:

1) Native Hawaiian is an oxymoron. It gets down to which invading ethnic group claims squatters' rights. That's a bit ridiculous when you think about it in the grand scheme of things.

And I'm not into the "liberal guilt" thing. There's too much bad history for me to screw up my own health (literally) worrying about it. I'll let personal success be my best revenge.

2) In my book, there are no favored races on this planet, and no ethnic group that deserves special consideration. If you say "This school is only for this ethnic group" then you are engaged in a racist practice - by definition.

I'd like to refer all to a school in my former home town of Hampton, Virginia. Hampton University is considered a "black college" by reputation. They celebrate black culture, and attract mostly blacks. But they do not discriminate, nor do they need to. And if I walk on campus with my white skin and blue eyes, folks wouldn't give it a second thought.

What's not to like about that?

- Bill
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17298
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Postby cxt » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:07 pm

Agreed very complex situation.

Not the least of which is that the various islands had their OWN leaders and their OWN governments prior to KK, violent, destructive, war machine crushing and subjugating them.

(butchering 1000's upon 1000's in the process)

So if and when they achive "independence" does that mean from the USA--or will say Molokai be allowed to take back ITS OWN soveign "independence?"

Yes, I am going over the top here--on purpose.

The point is that things are seldom as cut and dry as people think they are--the Sen, and the activist quoted above should know that.

It also raises some serious questions concerning the fair application of various anti-discrimination laws.
Applications that the folks who penned the laws in the first place probably never imagained.

Tricky issue.
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Return to Realist Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest