Birth of a Democracy - Part II

[MikeK]

When Amanpour suggested the U.S.-led war ousted Saddam Hussein, Al-Assad replied, "Yeah, but what did you lose as a return? The hope of the people, the stability, no better democracy, no better economy, no services, no stability in the region, more terrorism -- so is that the prize you've won for getting rid of a dictator? That's not a goal."

Hmmm, and I'm sure that he just happens to also be a dictator has nothing to do with his opinion?

[Gene DeMambro]

Yes, Bill. The Cavaliers might be flipping the bird, big time....but as a member of the United States of America. That damn pesky freedoom of speech again.

Despite your misplaced insults on my intellect, you will not change my opinion of The Civil War or its outcome or how the South got the @sskicking it so richly deserved. Did the North handle Reconstruction differently than Lincoln intended? Perhaps. But as you pointed out, he ws assassinated before his full plan was in place.

And you must have me confused with someone who writes for or agrees with the NY Times, The LA Times or any other "liberal" rag you trot out. You're probably talking to someone else.

And didn't I agree with you on the treatment of your Irish ancestors and of your other main thesis points? Look again and you'll see it. Case closed.

It's too bad you can't see nuances, Bill. Such a pity.

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Gene

Why did you think all of this was about you?

And before you talk about a$$kicking, you'll need to read up a little more on Civil War history. Before Gettysburg, The Union was almost ready to give up the cause.

Why does that war make you feel so good to be on "the right side?" My great grandfather fought for The Union Army. He was there. His descriptions of God's truth about war weren't all so rosey, nor were his comments about the army that used him very flattering.

Did you know what Abraham Lincoln said when introduced to Harriet Beecher Stowe?

So you're the little woman who wrote the book that made this great war!

It was not a happy time. Calling the Union Army virtuous is a mistake at best.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

As is calling the South's actions virtuous equally as wrong as well.

"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."
-Robert E. Lee

Gene

[Gene DeMambro]

I am well aware of the Union armies troubles in the first part of the war. Even saw Ken Burns' specials a few times as well.....

I am also well aware that the US Army suffered defeat in their first engagements in WWI and WWII. But one battle does not a war make.

Gene

[Panther]

And I still have no sympathy for the South during Reconstruction, Virginia's monuments to the treasonists not withstanding. That's just me.

I wouldn't have expected otherwise... however, history has already passed judgement (prior to certain revisionism that has been in vogue for the past few decades) on the government and military of the Confederacy. History, as well as the U.S. Congress after reunification, both say that those who fought for the C.S.A. did not commit treason. One simply can't have it both ways... either the Southern States seceded from the Union and became a separate nation (as put forth in many history books) or they never seceded and it was an internal war of the U.S.A. (as put forth in many history books... sometimes even in the same ones that have stated that they seceded!) It isn't both, but most people, who haven't fully researched the War for Southern Independence, seem to take both as being true. After the War was over, the U.S. Congress originally invited the delegates from the Southern States to simply be reseated (giving credence to the internal war stance)... Unfortunately, when it was quickly learned that those delegates would not go along with the post-War scenerio laid out for them, things were changed. At that point, those pre-War Southern delegates were told to leave, the States that comprised the C.S.A. were "readmitted" into the Union, and NEW elections (rigged for the outcome desired) were held to insure that the seated delegates from the South were amenable to the post-War plans for their States' wealth. By making that change, the U.S.A. had to acknowledge, for all history to know, that the Southern States which comprised the C.S.A. had, indeed, seceded and become a separate independent nation. With that in mind, looking back at the beginning of the War, belies the fact that the C.S.A. was invaded, unprovoked, by the U.S.A. Not a debate, just history.

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few weeks, but I got a call that things weren't well with my Mom. She lost her 16 year battle with cancer on Oct. 5, 1/2 hour after I got there.

Now that I'm back, I hope some of you can start toning down your rhetoric, because coming back and reading the threads certainly doesn't help my already pi$$-poor mood any at all...

[Stryke]

Sorry to hear of your Loss Panther

My Deepest Condolances

[Bill Glasheen]

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few weeks, but I got a call that things weren't well with my Mom. She lost her 16 year battle with cancer on Oct. 5, 1/2 hour after I got there.

[chef]

My Mom and Dad finally left to go back home to New Orleans Monday. They had been up here staying in Richmond with my sister's family who is at home. I spent as much time as I could over there and was deeply saddened to see them go home. I cannot imagine what you are facing, Panther.

I am so sorry your mother is gone. There are no real words that bring comfort. Nothing buffers the deep emotional pain of such a loss.

Hang on to the wonderful memories she gave you....the happy times, the laughter, the times she encouraged you, the times she defended you, the times she hugged and kissed on you. Continue that legacy she has imparted to you.

God bless you and yours at such a difficult time.

Vicki

[chewy]

I've had many loved ones fight this same battle, some won and some lost. I wish you and yours comfort, fond memories, and good health.

regards,

chewy

[Gene DeMambro]

[mikemurphy]

Panther,

First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Mine is still around and I appreciate her more everyday since I've almost lost her on a couple of occasions (asthma & breast cancer). She's a survivor though. But I understand the fight. You have my thoughts and prayers.

Now to the business at hand:

<By making that change, the U.S.A. had to acknowledge, for all history to know, that the Southern States which comprised the C.S.A. had, indeed, seceded and become a separate independent nation. With that in mind, looking back at the beginning of the War, belies the fact that the C.S.A. was invaded, unprovoked, by the U.S.A. Not a debate, just history.>

Whether or not the 12 Southern states seceded or not makes no difference. Within this fight of Federal Rights vs. States' Rights, the North claimed that by officially enacting secession legislation that they were in fact committing the only crime mentioned in the Constitution.

Even if we were to accept your premise, a government claiming to be sovereign is nothing unless it gets recognition from anyone. Since the Confederacy was never recognized, it could never really be considered a sovereign nation; therefore, the North did not invade another nation.

And assuming once again that the US invaded the Confederacy, it was the South which fired first in Charleston, SC when it fired first at the STAR OF THE WEST, a supply ship for Fort Sumter, and then at Fort Sumter by order of Jefferson Davis.

Unprovoked? I think not.

mike [/quote]

[Bill Glasheen]

It ain't perfect, but then it's obvious from this discussion about North vs. South that our own country was far from perfect for quite some time.

Iraq's Draft Constitution
Passes Voter Referendum

Militants Target Kurds
In 2 Suicide Attacks

Associated Press
October 25, 2005 2:23 p.m.

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Iraq's constitution was adopted by a majority during the country's Oct. 15 referendum, as Sunni Arab opponents failed to muster enough support to defeat it, election officials said Tuesday. A prominent Sunni politician called the balloting "a farce."

The referendum results, announced after a 10-day audit following allegations of fraud, confirmed previous indications that Sunni Arabs failed to produce the two-thirds "no" vote they would have needed in at least three of Iraq's 18 provinces to defeat the constitution.

Al Qaeda in Iraq, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for Monday's suicide attacks that targeted hotels housing Western journalists and contractors in central Baghdad, as well as two suicide bombings in a Kurdish area of northern Iraq on Tuesday.

The vote on the constitution was 78.59% in favor of ratification and 21.41% against, the commission said. The charter required a simple majority nationwide with the provision that if two-thirds of the voters in any three provinces rejected it, the constitution would be defeated.

The election commission said the predominantly Sunni province of Ninevah had produced a "no" vote of only 55%. Only two other mostly Sunni provinces -- Salahuddin and Anbar -- had voted no by two-thirds or more.

The White House congratulated Iraqis on the results. "It's a landmark day in the history of Iraq," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. "The political process is continuing to move forward in Iraq and it is an encouraging sign to see more and more people participating in the process."

The charter is considered a major step in Iraq's democratic reforms, clearing the way for the election of a new, full-term Iraqi parliament on Dec. 15. Such steps are important in any decision about the future withdrawal of U.S.-led forces from Iraq.

However, some fear the victory, which came despite a large turnout by Sunni Arabs in an effort to defeat it, could enrage many members of the minority and fuel their support for the insurgency.

Carina Perelli, the United Nations elections chief, praised a "very good job" with the audit of results by election officials and said "Iraq should be proud of the commission."

snip

Of course we had MUCH more unity in OUR last election. They should learn from us!!!

NOT!!!

Not a bad start, IMO.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

VOTE TALLY


Final results from Iraq's constitutional referendum, as reported by election officials.

Province (capital)..........Yes votes..No votes..Votes cast

Anbar (Ramadi).......................3.04%......96.96%......259,919
Babil (Hillah).........................94.56%.......5.44%.......543,779
Baghdad (Baghdad)................77.70%.....22.30%...2,120,615
Basra (Basra).........................96.02%.......3.98%.......691,024

Dahuk (Dahuk).......................99.13%.......0.87%.......389,198
Dhi Qar (Nasiriyah)...............97.15%.......2.85%.......463,710
Diyala (Baqouba)...................51.27%......48.73%......476,980
Irbil (Irbil)..............................99.36%.......0.64%.......830,570

Karbala (Karbala)...................96.58%.......3.42%.......264,674
Maysan (Amarah)...................97.79%.......2.21%.......254,067
Muthanna (Samawah).............98.65%.......1.35%.......185,710
Najaf (Najaf)..........................95.82%.......4.18%.......299,420

Ninevah (Mosul).....................44.92%.....55.08%.......718,758
Qadisiyah (Diwaniyah)............96.74%......3.26%........297,176
Salahuddin (Tikrit)..................18.25%.....81.75%.......510,152
Sulaimaniyah (Sulaimaniyah)..98.96%......1.04%.......723,723

Tamim (Kirkuk)......................62.91%....37.09%........542,688
Wasit (Kut).............................95.70%......4.30%.........280,128

Overall numbers.....................78.59%.....21.41%.....9,852,291

Source: Associated Press