Differences in moves, techniques, emphasis and applications.


Postby MikeK » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:43 am

This thread is for Marcus, myself and anybody else who wants to share applications about this Shotokan kata.

Some notes on Bassai: Bassai means Penetrate a Fortress. One theory that I've recently heard is that Funakoshi used this name because it sounded close to the Okinawan name but it has nothing to do with what is going on in the kata. But who knows. According to Ohshima Bassai comes from a bo kata. The major lessons of Bassai is moving from a position of disadvantage to advantage.

Where I'm Coming From: My approach to this kata is based on what my instructor has taught me, some of Ohshima's notes and some things that Funakoshi has written. I believe that it is a multiple attacker kata which means some of the techniques are to get the attacker off of you but not finish them off. This also means that grappling is at a minimum as there always one more attacker to deal with. Some moves demonstrate the disadvantage to advantage lesson and leave the counter attack to be filled in by the student. I don't know if it can be considered the same kata as the Okinawan kata Passai as Ohshima notes Funakoshi changed it.

So Marcus let's take it from the opening move. :)

The jump in:
As it was taught to me you are jumping in to pre-empt a backhanded weapon attack. So the scenerio would be the attacker has swung a stick or blade from a distance, missed and before he can swing the weapon back you jump in with the reinforced block (in this case the block is really a block). This is also one where the block and the attack are one as the big knuckle of the index finger (a Shotokai pointy thing) should connect with a vital point on the attackers head or neck.. The left hand is reinforcing the block against the attackers power.
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Postby Stryke » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:01 am

Cool stuff Mike , this should be fun 8)

I take the name fairly literally , I have perhaps come up with my applications becasue i see it as ways to deal with a very strong guard , someone you cant overpower with strikes etc .

Move number one :)

I see the hand in fist position usually as a grab or a counter grab .

you have there right wrist or they yours in a same side grab ( maybe you grabbed there jewels )

you latch on with both hands

You rotate back , using your body torque to extend there arm , you use your grip and postion it in a double hand wrist lock , the rotation and angle of the arm minimises there ability to strike with the other arm .

You rotate back executing the wrist lock while driving forward , the combination of both drives him flat towards the ground .

this si a great way to execute a wrist lock IMHO , I`m not big on them but Ive used this and it`s doable .

A less complicated move is too do the same move , draw the arm or whatever is in the way maybe grabbed wrist again , maybe a chest grab etc .

Grab with with the left arm then spring forward with the rotation shouldering and coming over the limb to the back fist .

you get quite the charge ,a nd because there resisiting your pull you get a big straike and shoulder .

most imporatntly its a dominant entry .

So basically Mike Mines the same as yours , except I see the initial rotation as a draw , utilising both the sinking and the rotation to pull them out of there base or at least to gain resistance . The attack is a jam IMHO , the reinfocing arm controlling the limb while the connected mass drives over it with the other to make the impact .

Just a couple variations , It can work on the otherside going up the middle too .

Postby MikeK » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:30 pm

The attack is a jam IMHO , the reinfocing arm controlling the limb while the connected mass drives over it with the other to make the impact .

Very close in application and even closer in principle. Thanks for bringing up the torque that makes this bad boy work. I've tried the opener with just one hand and it did squat to stop the back hand. The reinforced arm makes this work.

The next sequence which is the 180 turn and two chudan uchi uke.
At the most basic it shows moving from a position of disadvantage (POD) to advantage. Someone is behind you (POD 1) and as you turn throws a right which you intercept with a left middle forearm block. Now you are inside and have to worry about the guy throwing a left (POD 2), the right middle forearm block moves him so you are now outside of his right side (POA). Pick a finisher.
A little more advanced technique is leaving your left forearm at his wrist the right forearm block circles under and behind his arm to smash into the back of his elbow. Might not end the fight but it hurts and we must move on to the other guy coming up behind us. BTW What did we do to piss off this many people? :D
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Postby Stryke » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:48 am

Ok Mike , this si gonna be the tough one ....

theres so many dam applications here , and I knw you dont like it .

I see this move as a shotokan wauke :lol:

the two arms are just broken down you have the first block , the guide hand , and the second block is the circle

heres an interesting one for the turn , have someone grab your shouler from behind , grab his hand with your right hand , and turn bringing the block pressing down on his arm .

Instant wrist lock and broken individual .

heres another turn and again jam with the block ,

version one

grab an arm and then do the second block into the arm pit , then use the next move in the kata the next turn , while lifting in the armpit and gripping the arm , turn and force there arm behind there back .The actual force should resemble the seisan fat grab technique .

The rotation creating all the force where you would need muscle .

version two

Grab again but this time the second block goes to the neck , use the neck and the armpit/arm gi grab to do the turn and throw .

there are a few ways also to use different armlocks etc , but I dont like multiple move armlocks , garb and bash/lock is more my style

Postby MikeK » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:10 pm

Don't worry about me liking the applications Marcus, we're just sharing ideas and approaches. :D

I agree with you about multiple move armlocks.

Dare we move onto the dip and the scoop?
Even by Funakoshi's foggy writing style this one is a head scratcher but I'll give it a shot anyway. Now this one I'll have to check with my friend and see what he learned for this one since we got sidetracked and jumped past it. But from the theme of the kata of moving from POD to POA and based on notes on this kata from Ohshima's book where he does mention that the kata did have some ducking (now there's a badass martial arts technique :lol: ) and a takedown that is made up of the scoop, left forearm block and the turn with the cup and saucer chamber. I'd go with that for now.
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Postby Stryke » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:20 am

Your right it`s a doosie :lol:

actually I have a few things , but nothing I`m sold on .

I tend to think of it as an alternate turn , If Ive got something hooked armpit arm etc , i can use the foot and arm in harmoine to push/drag and turn them , but ti involves doing many other things and is a reach .

I see the takedown too , but then why do the legs come back together ...

ponder ponder , makes sense as a behind the back arm lock

left hand to there left wrist , chamber , and turn the opponent around you , forcing them over with the block and pulling them down , but i`m not buying or selling these ....

I can feel the move , :lol: :lol:

My only real solid idea is its a lift/throw , the chambered hand is a grab right , you go down and hook a leg then turn and stand up . make him into a teapot is that what you mean by cup and saucer :lol:

Next 8O :roll: :lol:

Postby MikeK » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:52 pm

Sounds like we're both in the same boat with that one. I'd love to ask Patrick McCarthy about that one. :lol:

Next being after the squat or next being the knife hand?
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Postby Sochin » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:05 pm

I've always been partial to the idea that you are turning toward a kick coming at your side, scooping and lifting it up and attacking the now vulnerable back of the lifted leg with your knee.

During a demo to show the class what I was thinking, I guess I kneed a little too deep and tori went into the air and landed on his back.
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Postby MikeK » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:34 pm

Make sense. It looks like you are ducking something and hooking a leg. And the move looks similar to some of the throws in the KdK.
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Postby Stryke » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:02 pm

I say the knife hand ;) , back after work , good stuff guys .

Postby Stryke » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:48 am

The knife hand , many uses , from pushing alimb , or opening from a grab .

The action could even be a strike but the timing ,and some folks do it with a slight dynamic tension

the key to me being opening with the elbow , the elbow leading the push and the waste doing the work .

lots of external movemnt , but a very internal type move IMHO

sorry that doesnt sound like an app , bu the move is so open to interpretation , could be as simple as a push pull of the neck

sometimes a push is just a push ?

Postby benzocaine » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:28 pm

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Postby MikeK » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:57 pm

I agree Marcus, that one seems to be what it is. At least to me.
I just found another application for the shuto in Draeger & Nakayama Practical Karate 5 (Self Defense for Women). Aim the fingertips at the eyes and rake across them. This should get some kind of a reaction out of the BG.

Ben thank you for sharing that site with us. Look at the fist he says to make. I noticed many of the older or advanced Shotokai guys use this hand form.

Marcus, does this "posture" on the right look familiar?

I guess it's on to the circle blocks.
I'm going by the book as to what the attack is which would be a right handed straight punch, push or grab. This is another one that to me is what it is which is blading the body to nullify the strike or off balance the push, then using the circle block to slam into the elbow and then a punch. Alternate for the left sided one is still against a right handed attack but this time the block hits into the elbow collapsing it enabling the hikite (returning hand) to pull him into the punch.
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Postby Stryke » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:17 am

I`m not gonna say specifically I got that position in mind but it looks like a few things if you squint :lol: , I like though

the move were on I like for underhooks , if someones got there arm under your armpit , you give em a slap , then use the motion to wrap the arm , the turn puts pressure on there elbow

it works great as you say also , many uses kinda a mini Wauke

Postby Stryke » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:23 am

next moves the shuto uke

this is one of my bread and butter techniques .

is the same as a sanchin draw , draw hand can be collapsing a grab , absorbing a attack tactily , the push and pull of the attack projecting arm and the absorbing and drawing arm .

lots of take downs , pull a limb attack with the lead arm and leg unbalance

you can cover on one and step across wth the second , or use them individually .


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