are high kicks practical for self defense

[student]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But it works against bad guys in the movies...they stand still for it...it should work for me too...right?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sure.

In your next movie....

student

[Glenn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by student:

Sure.

In your next movie....

student<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That'll never happen...you have to look good while you're beating up the bad guys, so that leaves me out.

On the other hand I'm thinking of changing my style to Sinanju or the one featured in "Kung Pow". Being skilled in either of those could get me in the movies!

------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[Chris Palmquist]

I'm not exactly an expert here by no means.
But did any remember watching Joe Pomfret lands not one, but two roundhouse kicks to his oppenents heads in his no-holds barred fights. Two kicks that ended up in unconscious oppenents. I'm not saying in that ring is a street fight, but it's as close as your gonna get. I believe that if you throw a roundhouse you should know when to throw it, how to throw it, and committ to it. Simple as this, it's a devasting kick if used correctly.

[GSantaniello]

Although i have used high kicks in the past when i was younger in the dojo and found that many were fairly accurate, it was as other had mentioned "controlled" environmet. Even in tournaments i have seen many used and scored a point or two myself.

However, being older now and having met many talented individals who come right in at you, leave little room for error.

As Van mentions, utilizing the "shin" and blasting it in will do much damage as compared to an instep kick. Some aare very fast and talented with the use of fast high powerful kicks. I think that unless you are one of those individuals, stay away from using them in real situations.

I must add, feeling confident that i have developed a descent low leg kick, i have met some that attack you as you are delivering the low kick. and are capable of removing your power.

It must be delivered acurately and presisly with drive. Let us not forget, as Van mentions, many "tap" the legs in class and develop nothing.

This conditioning exersize in class is only that. In reality it must be taken up to higher levels with intent to break and damage. Not piss off your opponent !

------------------

Gary S.

[Traveler in the Arts]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Palmquist:
I'm not exactly an expert here by no means.
But did any remember watching Joe Pomfret lands not one, but two roundhouse kicks to his oppenents heads in his no-holds barred fights. Two kicks that ended up in unconscious oppenents. I'm not saying in that ring is a street fight, but it's as close as your gonna get. I believe that if you throw a roundhouse you should know when to throw it, how to throw it, and committ to it. Simple as this, it's a devasting kick if used correctly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris,
In the fight I remember, he landed the second of two head kicks. You should be able to still find this file, 30sec.mpg, on this website.

In the beginning of the fight, Joe (right side forward) threw a scary rear leg roundhouse kick to the head of his opponent that almost scored. They moved around a bit, and then Joe (left side forward) threw a beautiful rear leg roundhouse kick to the head that scored the knockout.

As much as I admired Joe's kicks, I wonder about the preparation and tactical understanding of the other fighter. After seeing the first one (feeling it whiz by your nose) shouldn't he have been prepared for the second one? Indeed, he should have had something ready--rear leg kicks are easy to jam if you know they're coming. With the proper setup and anticipation, you can e.g. simple simultaneously attack, taking out the kicking leg with an outward crashing block (high on the thigh) while punching to the head/body with the other hand. At a minimum the other fighter should have adjusted his sense of safe distance and/or tried to move more into an open stance, making that kick harder to execute.

Maybe the other fighter, just had a bad day... In any case, he probably learned a lot that day.

John


[This message has been edited by Traveler in the Arts (edited March 09, 2002).]

[Chris Palmquist]

John,

As far as Joe's opponent adjusting for his kicks. In the first fight, the 38 sec knockout, Joe's oppenent was the number one rated USKBA amateur kickboxker in the US and ranked 7 in the world. As far as being preparted to defend kicks, this guy should have been the most aware. But if you watch the clip close, Joe acts like his gonna kick low making the fighter drops his hands, then we all know what happens. So even against an guy who should know better, the roundhouse if used correctly is devasting.

[turbotort2000]

I saw a lot of post talking about kickboxing. Realize that when fighters are ingaging in kickboxing they are on a level on slippery surface and in a wide open space. They do not have to worry about the other guys friends jumping in nor if the other guy is armed. There are no obsticles like chairs and tables, cars walls ect. I am not throwing out the obvious to say that high kicking is always wrong. What I do want to point out is that looking at high kicking for self-defense by analyzing kickboxing should at least acknowledge the enviroment that the high kicking will take place in. To give you an example, I once knew of a fight where one guy threw a head kick around a table and missed. Before he could put his foot down the other guy dumped the table on the martial artist and sat on him punching him out. Conversly, I knew a T.K.D. fighter who was in a fight in a bathroom in my high school. The attacker shoved him and followed it with a punch. The T.K.D. fighter leaned away and while holding on to the sink threw a side kick at the face of the other guy who at the time was rushing in to try to land a punch. The kick landed on the guys nose breaking it and ending the fight. In both these examples the envirorment played a role in the outcome. When looking at any technique and its value in self-defense it is paramount to incorporate the envirorment into the evaulation and not see it in the vacuum of the training hall or kickboxing ring.

[Guest]

The big problem I have with really high kicks is, I can never find anyone who knows how too hook the cables up before the fight begins. I'm then forced to stay pretty much on the ground.

Laird

[Cecil]

In "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling", Peyton Quinn does say that a front snap kick to the chin can work on a guy as he is moving forward. He also says that he thinks high kicks are out of the question for most people. I was taught that if you want to use high kicks for real, you have to specialize in kicking.

Think about the environment. If there is anything in the way of your lifting and retracting your leg, then kicking should be out. Especially any kicks that hook around like the roundhouse, hook kick or even crescent kicks. I've seen kicks work up to the chest level in real fights.

Besides, you should work on your hands AND feet, so that you have options.

[Allen M.]

My thoughts are that high kicks receive the thumbs-down from so many Uechika because they not only cannot do them but they don't understand them as well. I am also of the opinion that many Uechika cannot do decent mid-section kicks, and by knocking high kicks they justify themselves. A real good kicker can do some pretty amazing stuff with high kicks at fist-fighting distance.

I am also of the opinion that most kick-high stylists' high kicks aren't worth the effort to launch them. I know because I used to train them and have seen and worked out with a whole lot more high-kickers. Just like flowery and weak Uechi kata may look cool to some and win trophies but is worthless in the street, so many high-kicking stylists' high kicks look cool as and are worthless in the street too!.

Just like building strong fight-worthy Uechi kata takes years, building strong fight-worthy high kicks also takes years to develop. Developing strong kicks is a step-wise process that requires a lot of individual attention and practice paid to training all the discrete components of the kick, whether high or otherwise. Then, it is up to the receptor to decide if the particular kicks are good or not.

I caught the running kick paragraph from TSGuy, and yes he sounded as if he was being sarcastic and serious at the same time. However, running from one end of the dojang and nailing the heavy bag with a two-footed side kick is a valid kick that I never want to be in the way of. Although in a crowded nightclub or bar, it would be tough to get up the speed.

I've gotten into more than my share of fistfights at teeny-bopper dances when I was younger, one famous place right in my home town that often had multiple fights every Saturday night [Van, you ought to check police records of the 60s' just to see how rough it was in our village in those days]. I remember unintentionally hitting innocent bystanders in the chops [I used to draw my fist back along the side of my head a lot] and in the chest with the solid point of the elbow while chambering for punches aimed to the forward direction. No room to even punch, never mind kick.


------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[turbotort2000]

Allen M,

Great reply on all points! Sounds like we could sum of the first paragraph as the sour grapes defense. I can't do them so they are no good. And yeah, gotta agree cultivation is an important and undivorcable aspect of the martial arts. And the last paragraph about factoring in enviroment to the tatics used is a point not taken in many training sessions but one that should affect every training session. What a good way to put it. Well said.