rank promotion testing

[Dale Houser]

I tested recently at Sensei Folta's RPT and finally got to see him test a 2-3 Kyu's Sanchin (I forgot which Kyu he was). I have a long way to go before someone can punch me in the stomach, sides and also kicks to the calfs and thighs without missing a beat.

Needless to say, he passed. I'd seen the Okinawa videos where this is done and it sure shows me how being able to take hits like that will serve you well outside the dojo. I can see this guy going far.

Also, he had two women pass to become Shodans, one of which also was 'lucky' enough to have him test her Sanchin. A very good day overall for his school and Uechi-ryu in general.

[IJ]

There are advantages to less aggressive sanchin checks, as well, but definitely, there's something to said for knowing you can withstand a solid blow. See also the combat ki videos on the "another no touch video" thread.

[RACastanet]

There are advantages to less aggressive sanchin checks, as well, but definitely, there's something to said for knowing you can withstand a solid blow.

This is true, but I would never test anyone at the level that Nestor sensei tests his dan ranks.

Rich

[gmattson]

and am a strong believer in "controlled checking" instead of "strong testing". The first gives the correct impression of teacher "checking" student for a number of Sanchin attributes versus a student preparing to be beat upon by his teacher in a test of pure tensing-power.

Once a teacher destroys a student's confidence during the overly strong "testing during a kata, a reflex begins to develop in the student to hold breath-lock-movement and prepare to be hit. Not exactly qualities we should be striving for in teaching students.

In "checking", the teacher builds confidence in the student, allowing the student to maintain a fluid and natural Sanchin flex without distorting the way he/she performs the kata.

Sanchin should "build" confidence and should not be a "test" of hardness and rigidity while standing like a statue.

Where new teachers get into trouble is when they view a clip of seniors being checked and assuming this is the way they should be wailing on green belts or even candidates for shodan. Big, big mistake and very dangerous.

Anyone can hold his breath and tense every muscle in his body while taking a hard punch to the belly. Anyone can also get seriously injured by doing this.

None of the first/second generation of Uechi seniors did this type of "testing" except in demonstrations and was strongly disapproved during dan tests performed by 3rd + generations of teachers.

To the student: If you have to alter your sanchin posture, breathing or tension in any way while being "checked" during kata, your teacher is hitting you too hard and as a responsible, intelligent person - you should talk to that teacher and let him/her know that he/she is exceeding the limits of your current ability.

A competent teacher can tell your muscular strength by touching you and will adjust his/her checking accordingly.

[Rick Wilson]

I agree with GEM.

[Van Canna]

I also agree with George. And I was told by a great student of Nakahodo sensei that he doesn’t _‘test hard’ either.

Anyone can hold his breath and tense every muscle in his body while taking a hard punch to the belly. Anyone can also get seriously injured by doing this.

True in so many ways. Not to mean that one should not condition to take hits [judiciously] _ Conditioning, even at the wrong spots, will in a way help psychologically in the chaos of a fight.

But careful. In a street fight the hits will go to your face and other body parts you cannot really condition. Of course the standard Uechi answer here is: well you are supposed to ‘block’ those hits to body areas you cannot condition. Sure you do.

More detrimental is the embedding of tensing and locking the breath as George explains so well.


This will make you lock up in many ways [freeze] _ if you will_ as you engage in defense. The additional lockup by the ‘dump’ will finish the job.



You will be a ‘slab of meat on the hook’ without realizing it _ for your enemy to cut open at will with his blade or ‘slicing punches’ _ the ones you dream of blocking now, like this cigar store Indian

A training session with Wes Tasker on this, will show you the error of your ways as you get busy picking up your severed ‘body parts’ from the floor _

Invite Wes for a training session and find out how tough you really are in a street fight.

[Van Canna]

Go for it_

[Bill Glasheen]

The fruit never falls far from the tree. I've seen Kanmei Sensei test students. Folta Sensei is true to his teacher.

I'm always wary of criticizing how others do things. Folta Sensei is one of our treasures in the Mid Atlantic region. He's a good man. And I'm happy for the people who achieved their new ranks.

That being said, it's fair to point out other ways of approaching this subject. I personally prefer saving the hard hitting for partner exercises where "the love you take is equal to the love you make." I do not like the psychological implications of teaching someone to stand still and "take" while not being allowed to give back. Think about what we want to teach the student to do when facing a predator. I prefer instilling a mindset where someone instinctively and reflexively responds to being hit. It is no small feat to teach someone to function in the midst of pain and chaos.

Standing still is rarely "functional" behavior in a self-defense situation. Overcoming the natural tendency not to confront or to kill when necessary is difficult enough. We need operant conditioning, stress management, and every other tool working in our favor to create the best end product. We certainly don't need to be teaching "deer in the headlamps" syndrome - intentionally or otherwise.

Perhaps we're overanalyzing and/or assuming there is an issue when there isn't one. Maybe and maybe not. But at least we're talking about it in a dignified manner. Understanding where the pitfalls are in our training can go a long way to achieving our desired ends as efficiently as possible. There's nothing wrong with "good guesses" as to how to get there quicker than the next guy. Ultimately the laboratory of the dojo and the battlefield will sort all of this out.

- Bill

[Mary S]

I was fortunate enough to be tested by Sensei Canna the night before my promotion to Shodan in a room of over 100 students from all ranks and dojos. I was terrified!!

I remember thinking what an honour it was that such a senior Senior had picked me out of the crowd, hoping I would surive, thinking about what was expected from me (during his sanchin check AND the promotion the next day), hoping I would do my sensei and his sensei proud and show them not only did I learn a little something but that they did a great job teaching Uechi.

It was one of my most memorable sanchin tests. Sensei Canna checked for my strengths and weaknesses, my stability in my stance, my courage and confidence, my conditioning, my ability to adapt and absorb, and my focus. I remember him checking my arms in sanchin and thinking it sounded like gunshot going off when he hit my arms.

All I can say is .... THANK YOU!!!! It was an honour to be tested in such a manner.

[Dale Houser]

Sensei Rik Lostritto also tested and used the "soft" style so it was an interesting contrast in styles. As for the "locking up", I didn't see that as the testees were fluid and fast. I should say and think it should be the same elsewhere, that the Sanchin testing was only a small part of the overall testing at this level. Their sparring would seem to alleviate any stiffness or locking concerns. But it's interesting to hear about the different styles in ways that aren't defensive or instigating as you see so much on other forums.

It was mentioned that such testing was only previously done in demonstrations. If true, then they had to have practiced this to prepare, right? Also, there are plenty of recent videos that show this on the Internet. Now who they all are, I don't know. Thanks for the feedback.

[gmattson]

My point is simply that this "extreme" type of testing is a fairly new phenomenon. . . as is formal black belt testing. During my training at Master Uechi's dojo in the 50s, I saw some of the seniors in class "testing" one another. Since the younger black belts participated in the demonstrations of the era, the custom of hard testing was popular, along with breaking things.

Most of this could be classified as a macho kind of "showing off". . . Something we see in our modern dojo as well. There was a lot of "Give my all you got... I can take it!" attitude.

There is nothing wrong with the instructor hard-checking a student during kata. If, and I emphasize the "if", the instructor is competent and understands what he/she is doing and the student isn't being hurt physically or his overall training isn't suffering from a misdirected emphasis on the "testing".

My comments weren't addressed to anyone specifically, but as a general warning to those teachers (and there are many out there) who don't have a clue as to why they are hitting the student and to those students who are on the receiving end of what can only be described as physical abuse.

[Dale Houser]

Thanks for the replies, your feedback has helped me understand this more. I also should have pointed out earlier that it was voluntary to be tested in this manner.

If I ever get to that level, I am not sure what I would choose.

[Van Canna]

We see clips of Shinjio sensei testing his brother in Sanchin, and I am sure some aspire to reach such heights of 'lion status' _

Toyama sensei explains this best by the concepts of 'Sundome' and 'Todome' as Used by kanbun Uechi, and as practiced today at the Zankai.

[Glenn]

I think an important consideration here is how long and intensely someone has been training before you see them on the receiving end of hard testing. New young students in particular fall into the trap of seeing someone taking hard testing (or breaking with forearms or hard conditioning on the makiwara) and wanting that ability right away. They aren't likely to take into consideration that the person testing has been training for 20 or so years, the competitiveness can take over and they can start training too hard too fast. I've heard this was common among American soldiers stationed on Okinawa who trained in karate in the 50s and 60s.

Add to this that the training time before testing has generally decreased, so that someone testing for Shodan today may only have a couple years of training 2-3 times a week and thinking s/he should be able to take the same level of hard Sanchin testing as someone 50+ years ago who may have trained every day of the week for 5+ years before testing for Shodan. This is not meant as a negative about today's Shodan, just that some things take time to develop.

Some instructors could fail to see these aspects as well, and push students too far too fast. And I'm not thinking of anyone specific here, just that instructors are just as human as their students, and just as fallible.

[paul giella]

interesting and ironic that I should be somewhat of a dissenting voice here... but at the Hut, in our Saturday morning class, we have migrated back to a stronger Sanchin and a stronger test. Sanchin is our thing, if I could put it that way, and we have been experimenting for at least the past five years with variations such as the three level, long sanchin (which we have pretty much decided is here to stay; a great workout in itself). No one has been hurt by the stronger, old style test. but many of us have commented on how super-energizing it is. The great strength of Uechi-ryu is its great strength, and the vigorous Sanchin test is a reflection of that and promotes it. The softer test has its place as well. I am not advocating losing it entirely, but I think we did lose a certain level of strength and conditioning during the years we let the stronger test go. Now... let's just balance what I have said with a dose of reasonableness; obviously I am not advocating that we injure , intimidate or terrify our students. Rather that we push closer to the limit, at least once in a while.