Redman & High Gear

[MikeK]

We're getting to the point where we need to get some extra protection. Has anybody used both systems that can give me an overview of what each is like, cost and how they fit?

[RACastanet]

Hi Mike. I have seen the Redman used and also the Tony Blauer suit. The big difference is mobility. The Redman offers the wearer great protection but is cumbersome. And hot.

I own a Blauer suit and have a few hours of training in its use. It is best described as a limited proection suit but you can go a lot harder with it than without.

My suit is complete and is in excellent condition but is little used. Want to buy it?

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

My biggest complaint with the Blauer suit is that the headpiece doesn't fit my big Irish head.

I agree with Rich's general assessment. Some of the best equipment from a protection standpoint makes you feel like the Michelin Man. The Blauer suit is great for mobility, but you'll get dinged a bit.

Last time I used my Blauer suit in a self-defense class, one of the women took a stick and landed it right on my bootie with full force. Oops... No protection there! While it wasn't permanent, it did leave a remarkable bruise.

I still chuckle over the satisfaction which that woman showed when landing that stick on me like that...

- Bill

[chef]

Understandable there, Bill...

Vicki

[Jake Steinmann]

Mike,

I’ve never used the Redman suit. I have participated in several of Coach Blauer’s training programs, including one of his Ballistic Micro-Fight training sessions, which addresses the proper use of the High Gear.

My general understanding is along the lines of what other people have said here: the Redman lets you get hit by a cannon and not feel it, but it makes you move like the Stay-puffed marshmallow man.

High Gear lets you move, but you will feel the impact. If you’re curious to learn more about High Gear, I really recommend contacting TCMS. They’ll give you the full lowdown.

Whichever one you decide to invest in, I would highly, highly recommend that you take the time to learn how to use the gear properly. TCMS offers training courses on how to use High Gear, and I imagine that Redman does something similar.

One of the biggest mistakes that I’ve seen a lot of martial artists make is that they grab a piece of equipment (heavy bag, boxing gloves, High Gear, Redman, whatever) and just start blasting away at each other, or doing other incredibly foolish things with no regard for how the equipment is supposed to be used. They then get injured, and decide that the gear doesn’t work properly, or do what it’s supposed to, and discard it as useless. All because they couldn’t be bothered to invest in the proper training.

Gear used properly is great. Gear used incorrectly is a waste of money.

[MikeK]

Thanks for the responses guys, it cleared up the main differences.

Rich,
Thanks, but before I can think of making a purchase I'll have to find out what Don is thinking about when he says he wants us to go all out. May I ask why you're thinking of selling the suit?

[RACastanet]

May I ask why you're thinking of selling the suit?

I do not want to risk the pounding anymore. About 5 years ago when I was really going at it with the Marine program I had some back and neck troubles that required me to back off from the really heavy contact. My family Doc said I was setting myself up for potentially serious injury. So, the suit has been in the bag except for when I use parts of it for self defense classes and want to give the ladies a chance to wail away.

As Jake said above the suit has its place on the training continuum and must be used wisely. He may not remember it but I spent a few hours with him at a summer camp working in the suit.

The Marines use them but not in the MA school. They use them in the force protection schools, which is a totally different occupation. They train the embassy guards and the very serious military police types. Do not mess with an embassy guard!

Rich

[JimHawkins]

My biggest complaint with the Blauer suit is that the headpiece doesn't fit my big Irish head.

Some folks are and have been using full face motorcycle helmets for some training.. These may offer the sizes and better protection for the head under certain conditions.

[Jake Steinmann]

As Jake said above the suit has its place on the training continuum and must be used wisely. He may not remember it but I spent a few hours with him at a summer camp working in the suit.


Rich

I remember that well Rich. We got some good work done that day.

[gmattson]

I called Dave and asked him to jump into this thread. Dave trains more individuals than anyone in the business.(4000+ a year) His primary goal is to certify instructors who can pass along his training to members of their organization. Dave probably knows more about the subject of self defense and survival than any other person on the planet. Dave referred me to the lengthy post he authored on the "Realist" forum. For those interested:

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Hello Mr. Young,
I've read much about you and your work over the past few months. Your thinking is definitely out of the box and a nice fresh look to reality combat. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the Red Man suit. More specifically why you use the Red Man over the other suit/gear out on the market? ie High Gear, Bullet Man??

Best,
Andrew Moores
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Andrew,

Thanks for stopping by, I will gladly share with you why RedMan over others; I have worn all of the suits sold in the US and other markets today from sporting equipment, martial arts gear, and other safety equipment.

I will give you the tactical reply, instructor reply and the safety issues....

Bullet Man -
Tactical Reply: Too cumbersome to move it...and once on the ground you are really no threat in the suit very hard to move when on the ground, and in real life situations on the ground means the fight is either over or in most cases it has just begun. Was not modular, you had to wear the entire suit to train, or nothing at all.

Instructor Reply : Hard to control things from inside the suit from either wearing the suit and or while attacking the student....physical encounters change rapidly and so does the mood, mannerisms and force options, hard to get the eye to eye contact and verbalization needed to run good scenarios between instructor in the suit and the safety coach outside the suit. Hard to put in close quarter scenarios due to suits composition. The main reason for the bullet man was to promote striking to the head which the suit does take.
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Hit Man Suit -
Tactical Reply: This was a good idea however when used we found that the suit did not take the continuous and repetitive blunt force trauma received by an instructor due to its memory foam which after a few classes did not return to the original size therefore not giving you the safe protection needed…especially if you took overloads of continuous elbow after 3-4 strikes in the same area you felt like you were not wearing nothing at all.

When wearing it in grass environments it collected all of the grass, dirt and whatever else was on the ground or the suit came into contact with.

Instructor Reply: Head gear was totally inadequate, and caused serious injuries when strikes were received to the head area, the cage was too open and often got grabbed during a simulation and easily came off, only had Velcro on. The groin was not padded safe enough, either was the back and side areas. Made movement to restrictive in many scenarios.

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Monadnock (MDTS) Suit;
Tactical/Instructor Reply: Mostly same as the Hitman by PACA and Bullet Man: Good idea with color codes and was designed to help promote the sales of their batons but poor coverage and protection inside the suit and very restrictive movement, you were unable as the attacker to simulate a real attack speed. Head was poor protection. I have learned you have to not only pad and protect what is GOING to get hit but you need to pad what MIGHT get hit..when you break your toys no one wants to play!
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FIST Gear
Tactical/Instructor Reply: Mostly same as the Hitman by PACA and Bullet Man and the MDTS Suit…
It was designed to sell the approach to training with your real equipment but when worn and the student missed the padded area you received minor to extremely long lasting injury. I wore this suit in the mid 1990's in some training exercises and was hit in the knee and shoulder area one time too many, also if the student did not protect their hands when striking the suit we had many hand and knuckle scrapings on them. The chest was good but other areas greatly lacked the protection I needed being the one that was being hit.
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High Gear by Blauer;
Great suit for light grappling, touch to very light striking, not designed for training where you will get repetitive blunt force trauma. This suit was designed to support specific training offered by the designer.

We do not used pain as a punishment factor in our training, because most pain equals injury to someone somewhere.
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Safety Reply - This safety concern is the SAME for all of the other suits sold on the market today....I need the suit to be able to sanitize and disinfect the suit immediately after use to get another person in the suit for training. Any type of sweat, body fluids, blood, etc.... will create MANY hygiene problems and can cause serious infections, rashes, bacteria, fungi and other biohazards problems like hepatitis A. I am ONLY able to safely do this with the RedMan Training Gear and Equipment

Merely cleaning from dirt and grime is just surface cleaning with a brush and non oil base soap or mild detergent. Most people think if they put water and or bleach and alcohol on it and it smells clean then hey it is, and that is a very WRONG and UNSAFE assumption....

I am in various environments and use many different chemical agents and being able to decontaminate your suit is necessary, again air drying for 24 hours only removes surface chemicals.

I need the suit to be able to be hit with bare hands and feet and while wearing the foot wear worn in real life some gear does not allow that without taping up or wearing gloves so the hands and knuckles do not get scraped.

Being able to repair the suit without having to take it back to the manufacture or another source is greatly needed to save time between training sessions. We have repair kits with each Instructor suit purchased for the RedMan Gear.

Being able to take the repetitive and continuous blunt force trauma that will be received by the instructor is critical, internal injuries can surface days to weeks later and can have serious long lasting effects. You tell a student to hit with 50% power, add in with the intensity and adrenaline you get 150%.

I hope this answers your questions!

Stay Safe, Stay Strong, and most importantly Stay ALIVE!
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Dave,
What's the difference between the big dog suit and the students? How much does each slow someone down if at all?
_________________
Open channel D!

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Mike - about the big dogs suits!
Mike,

We primarily use 4 different types of suits;

Since the RedMan (The Red in color suit) gear is modular and can be worn in part or in whole the XP Instructor Suit (XP) is the complete full body protection suit designed for full contact and repetitive blunt force protection, also available is the special configuration package which offers you additional protection with the inner chest guard, enhanced head gear protection etc... This is for all of your empty hand training and non functional training props. Movement is limited give or take about 10-20 percent over all giving you 80% plus of movement but when worn correctly and after being trained you can compensate for the reduced movability to be about 90%plus, so over all about 10% again after being trained.

Then the XP Student suit which is considered the partial suit red in color as well. This consists of the head gear with goggles and cage, elbow guard, knee and shin guard and the chest, side and back protection. This does not hinder movement at all.

The next team of gear is the Weapons Defense Suit (WDS) (Purple or Bronze to some in color) which is the closed cell foam covered with a special nylon mesh to give the added protection when using training projectiles (there are limits and special weapons and training projectiles are limited - we use the 21st tactical AirSoft weapons and munitions) the instructor suit again is a complete full body suit. This is for all of your empty hand training and functional training props. Again movement is limited give or take about 10-20 percent over all giving you 80% plus of movement but when worn correctly and after being trained you can compensate for the reduced movability to be about 90%plus, so over all about 10% again after being trained. We used the WDS suit for our high level simulations.

Then the WDS Student suit which is considered the partial suit bronze or purple to some in color. This consists of the head gear with goggles and cage, elbow guard, knee and shin guard and the chest, side and back protection. This does not hinder movement at all.

Disturbance Resolution Suit (DRS 180 or 360) - DRS 180 offering 180 degrees of protection and the DRS 360 for 360 degree protection. The DRS 180 hinders no movement at all, and is used mainly for rapid riot response for law enforcement and the DRS 360 hinders maybe 5-10%, and is used for rapid emergency response for corrections. These are very high quality protective suits designed for real time operational duty and critical incident performance. This is made out of a nomex cover making them non flammable, and very light weight. I use these in training for close quarter training, grappling, ground defense training, and dynamic simulations.

Thanks for the question, I hope it answer it.

Dave
Stay Safe, Stay Strong, and most importantly STAY A LIVE!
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quote:
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Originally posted by MikeK Thanks Dave, you did. The way things are going I'll be needing some protection during training in the next couple of months.

Just wondering if you ever do any kind of training without the gear on at all and if so what is it like?
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Mike we identify the need for training in 8 different stages. This is needed to allow the student to work through their awkward stage through guided discovery, then into their comfort zone, then we can start building proficiency, then adding the stress inoculation.

1. Shadow training - No Gear

2. Prop Training - with props - no gear

3. Partner Training - with partner, props and gear

4. Movement Training - with partner - props, wearing gear

5. Environment Training -with partner - props, wearing gear in various actual environments

6. Low Level Simulations -with partner - props, wearing gear in controlled area like gym , conducting various techniques at a moderate level of intensity were the student knows the technique they are going to be doing and how they are being attacked

7. High Level Simulations -with partner - props, wearing gear in different environments that will be it, conducting various techniques at a moderate/high level of intensity were the student knows the technique they are going to be doing and how they are being attacked

8. Dynamic Confrontations -with partner - props, wearing gear in different environments that will be it, conducting various techniques at a moderate/high level of intensity were the student DOES NOT know the technique they are going to be doing and how they are being attacked

There is more to it but that should give you an idea......Thanks

Dave
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Re: Training
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quote:
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If you don't mind me asking what kind of environments do you use with your civilian students? Do you try to recreate something like a persons home with all the obstacles and brick a brack laying about?
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Mike,

Techniques are like a tool in your tool box, if you are on the driving range and need to go 300 yards you are most likely using a driver...since a putter would not do....(Well unless you have seen me golf.... ....So if you are being trained in only round house kicks, then close quarters are not a good place for that....Most people in general have a hard time deciding under stress on which technique or tactic would be the best one for them or for that situation or that specific environment.

The environments we use are and simulate all of the common places a person would be attacked or find themselves in a confrontation...within reason one can use their own imagination for these environments...unless of course they have never been in a physical confrontation...lol

I appreciate your questions, if your time permits maybe you will come to the program in FL and see for yourself, it would be nice to meet you......

Dave
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Dave,
Thank you for your thorough reply. You brought up some great points for each of the training suits.

I am a coach with Tony Blauers PDR program (Personal Defense Readiness-civilian/non leo and military side of Tony's company) and obviously have had a "great deal" of experience with High Gear. In my own opinion I feel it is the best gear on the market. Again my SOP as an instructor is different than those that are dealing with LEOs and Military. So I can only speak from my experiences.

You said:
"Great suit for light grappling, touch to very light striking, not designed for training where you will get repetitive blunt force trauma."

I would disagree with you that the suit can be used for more than just touch to very light striking. Now it's not a suit that can be used, nor was it designed to be used, to go and tee off on someone. It was designed for "impact reduction." I love the fact that it gives the user feedback. Since it is great for force on force training, as someone that is in the suit you are getting immediate feedback as to what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.

I only state the info mentioned above not as to convince you to start using it, but to who ever else might be reading this forum might get some additional insite into High Gear.

I strongly suggest to anyone that is intersted in buying some training gear like this to research all brands and make an educated decision based on how you are planning on using the gear.

Again, thank you Dave for your thorough break down of the gear as you see it.

Best,
Andrew
_________________
Andrew E. Moores
Atlantic Karate Training Center
www.atlantickarate.com
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Andrew,

Your welcome, please extend my wishes for the holiday to Tony when you talk with him. Since you mentioned it please also understand that we have used the High Gear suit, and my comments were not made from another company point of view or my opinion, but from real personal experience inside the suit.

I have spent many hours in the High Gear suit on both the giving and receiving end. The term force reduction or student feed back for us has translated into accidents and injuries, which causes a great deal of liability to all parties involved, especially since it very hard to gage ones level of intensity combined with the adrenaline etc...

The High Gear Suit is an excellent piece of equipment as long as you stay within the suits perimeters.

In fact this topic was talked about during the Summerfest this past July and several other students mentioned the same comment about the injuries and other accidents...we had several physical accidents using the High Gear when it first came out and then again after the new changes were made. I can aggree with on this gear only works when used correctly.

Over the past 5 years we have found that real fights in the street mean hitting them hard, and hitting them often wins a fight...this means the training conducted must simulate this hitting hard and hitting often which was why the RedMan Gear was designed.

If you have not attended our class and then worn our RedMan Training Gear especially the new DRS gear we designed which is light weight, and can take repetitive heavy strikes for force on force, to include grappling...with the new technology and science behind the development of our gear we are able to greatly reduce the injury and trauma to students and still offer the same realisit encounters and student feedback so there are no injuries.

Thanks for sharing Andrew and I wish you a Merry Christmas!

Dave
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Dave,
Thanks again for the feedback.

I can honestly say, from my experience (hours upon hours of training with high gear) that I have never experienced an injury during training. Bumps and bruises??? yes, but that's training for you.

"The High Gear Suit is an excellent piece of equipment as long as you stay within the suits perimeters."

Dave you hit the nail on the head. Like any gear the user needs to understand the perimeters of that gear. Smart training equals smart results.

I hope our training paths cross someday. I look forward to that day.

Merry Christmas to you too Dave.

Best,
Andrew
_________________
Andrew E. Moores

[MikeK]

Thanks George and Dave, though now I feel like a real rube having been part of the original thread!

Rich,
I hear you about the poundings. For some reason I just don't enjoy them as much as I did at 40.

[Dave Young]

I have been busy traveling and between the National Geographic shows, product development for new equipment and training I have not been able to give the forums the time it needs, and will more than likely not be on for a while....I think that what George posted for me about the gear questions about covered it.....

A few other things we have found through personal experience;

1. If you cannot sanitize your suit it is not worth buying;
2. If there is NO TRAINING provided to use the suit correctly it is not worth buying - A goof in a suit is still a goof! - and goofs get hurt!
3. Some suits were designed ONLY for specific training and others were designed for all training - Yes like the RedMan Gear.
4. I hear some talk about movability - have not experienced that problem in over 18 years.....Maybe I am wearing it wrong...
5. If your suit cannot take the blunt force trauma a student will give you in REAL LIFE, or allows you as the instructor to give the student the most realistic encounter possible- then you are programing them for failure which translates to the strong possibility of being killed...(important fact)...

Please remember when I talk about our training - we are not talking about the person who takes training for socializing, or a person who takes it for the recreational enjoyment, or the person who is training for a sporting event for competition, we are talking about the person taking self defense for personal protection for their own personal defense...so the training, gear and mind set are different and will always be....(which for many this is not a bad thing...just a fact)

We encourage students to bring their own gear to a class and in the end they end up wearing and feeling the safest and most comfortable in our RedMan Gear..but then again every one is different...My training motto for 2008 "Make it real - they will!"

I hope you all have been well and take care and be safe!

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for stopping by, Dave. Your time is greatly appreciated.

Bill

[Van Canna]

Hi Dave,

Great to see your response. As usual, you cut to the chase

What you write is the 'real world' for sure. It is a shame so many of us TMAs do not pay much heed to your concepts.

Be well, my friend.