Is a cigar just a cigar?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:28 pm

And then someone ( ahem ... Van? ) has the temerity to expand his horizons and bring new ways of thinking about violence to my world. He shakes my belief systems. Damn!! Now I need to use my brain and engage in a paradigm shift.

LOL

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:31 pm

Van Canna wrote: After about twenty years or so of practice…then maybe. And this applies to any style.

Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal...

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:56 pm

Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal...

For pity's sake, can we all just bow to the awesomeness of WCK and get it over with? I mean, the system's so obviously superior to anything else out there; we have Jim here to tell us so.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:18 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:
MikeK wrote:
What was the original point of this thread?
Did I answer your question, Mike?

I don't know Bill, there's so much to read!

Bill Glasheen wrote: The point of the thread is to discuss the idea that martial movement - particularly as practiced in Sanchin kata - can sometimes be very general, and have many disparate applications.

Here's where we differ, if something is general I don't believe it has many applications, but can be part of many applications. It may be a slight difference but I think it's an important difference. So to me the movements of Sanchin are not applications but they are core movements of applications. For example the circle block in Sanchin is in the Seisan kata application but the Seisan application isn't in Sanchin. The Seisan circle block has more context than the Sanchin one which makes them non-associative.
(x*y)*z <> x*(y*z) {for some }x,y,z in S. (I had to use a bit of Pascal notation for not equal.)

Bill Glasheen wrote:Mike, this way of viewing martial movement REALLY bothers some people. It conflicts with a more concrete paradigm of kata practice and application. Some like to have a one-to-one correspondence between a move in a kata and a very specific application.

I'm sticking with my view that their is one prime application in a kata, a couple of secondary ones and a whole lot of fantasy moves.

I don't think anyone is bothered by your view Bill, just trying to understand what you're talking about. For example what you wrote below is a little baffling. Why is using your elbow for a block WC (they're in several arts including karate), or a throw Aikido (they're in several arts including karate), and so on? You seem to be trying to both keep things separate but part of your Uechi at the same time. I think this raises the neck hairs of the traditionalists from the arts you're grabbing from and the traditional Uechi folks whose art your adding "foreign" elements to. Do you think you're really doing WC or an FMA just because you use something from them? Do you change the clothes you wear as you transition between WC, karate, FMA and Aikido? Just add it in and call it what you're doing until it stops being what you were doing.

If I decide I want to use my elbow as a block, I'm doing Wing Chun. If I decide I want to do my elbow as a throw, I'm doing aikido. If I decide I want to use my elbow as a lateral vascular neck restraint, I'm doing jiujitsu. I'm not supposed to do that! I've violated some unspoken martial rule. I need to separate my Uechi from my aikido from my Wing Chun from my FMA from my JJ.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:00 pm

Jason Rees wrote:
Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal...
For pity's sake, can we all just bow to the awesomeness of WCK and get it over with? I mean, the system's so obviously superior to anything else out there; we have Jim here to tell us so.

Jason WTF are you talking about..?

I can't state a simple fact (of time to completion) in response to a comment?

Is it that threatening to you?

Go resuscitate yourself.

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:12 pm

"Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal..."

"Doesn't apply in the least to Tae Kwon Do, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in 1 year.... Mastery of course being a life long goal... "

I call it like I see it, Jim. Your dribble, someone else's dribble.. it's all an icky pool of saliva, and none of us want to clean up your mess. Point to a fact in either of the above statements. There isn't a single objective fact in any of it. It's your interpretation, which 9.5/10 x always points in favor of your chosen martial art, while you pontificate on an art you've practiced the first form of under someone purportedly in the same 'lineage' of the art you're contrasting.

Crap smells the same, no matter whose it is, so here's your sign: the bathroom is elsewhere.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:15 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote: Mike, this way of viewing martial movement REALLY bothers some people. It conflicts with a more concrete paradigm of kata practice and application. Some like to have a one-to-one correspondence between a move in a kata and a very specific application.

For the record I never took this position... If you think I did then you never read my posts..

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:19 pm

JimHawkins wrote:
For the record I never took this position... If you think I did then you never read my posts..

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever use the word never in polite conversation when speaking of the second person. It's always meant to be personal and is almost always percieved as personal; not to mention the implication that the person on the recieving end is either rude, lying, or has a serious reading comprehension issue.

And I'm sure you weren't implying that about Bill...

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:19 pm

Jason Rees wrote:
"Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal..."

"Doesn't apply in the least to Tae Kwon Do, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in 1 year.... Mastery of course being a life long goal... "
I call it like I see it, Jim. Your dribble, someone else's dribble.. it's all an icky pool of saliva, and none of us want to clean up your mess. Point to a fact in either of the above statements. There isn't a single objective fact in any of it. It's your interpretation, which 9.5/10 x always points in favor of your chosen martial art, while you pontificate on an art you've practiced the first form of under someone purportedly in the same 'lineage' of the art you're contrasting.

Crap smells the same, no matter whose it is, so here's your sign: the bathroom is elsewhere.

I think you have a screw loose.. Is that objective?

That's how I see you...

1. I simply state that we try make what and why we do what we do clear day 1.

2. That the system has a beginning and an end which nornally takes 5-7 years to complete...

Wow.. Scary stuff huh..

Get help...

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:22 pm

Hey Jason
I looked for a Wing-Chun sifu for an age

.....the real stuff is very,very good........Uechi is also supposed to be a "Soft-Hard" style like Wing-Chun.........soo I would expect folks to be really on the same wavelength here..........Now remember

...I said it took an age for me to find a proper "Wing-CHun " sifu ....why should you think that Good Uechi is easy to find?

...also I don't understand if I say I have found "Bad Wing-Chun" that is somehow acceptable......whereas if I say I found "Bad " Uechi....I get all the girls choir bleating " Wah WaH Wah ..you are knocking Uechi ....For God's sake grow up

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:25 pm

think you have a screw loose.. Ix that objective?

Not something normally said in polite company, but I think we're past that.

1. I simply state that we try make what and why we do what we do clear..

The implication is clear that other styles (like Uechi) don't (in your opinion).

2. That the system has a beginning and an end which nornally takes 5-7 years to complete...

In your experience, denying the possibility that other instructors besides yours might be a little slower or faster in granting promotions/recognition of advancement.

Krav Maga is intuitive, easily explained, easily demonstrated, a great workout, and learning the entire system is usually completed within nine months. And nothing I said in the last statement is an objective fact.

Wow.. Scary stuff huh..

Indeed.

Get help...

I'm detecting a hostile vibe... I can't quite place it...

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:27 pm

jorvik wrote:Hey Jason...

Oh, look, it's Jim's cheerleading squad. I deleted everything that didn't appear relevant... oops.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:34 pm

Jason Rees wrote:
think you have a screw loose.. Ix that objective?

Not something normally said in polite company, but I think we're past that.

1. I simply state that we try make what and why we do what we do clear..
The implication is clear that other styles (like Uechi) don't (in your opinion).

2. That the system has a beginning and an end which nornally takes 5-7 years to complete...

In your experience, denying the possibility that other instructors besides yours might be a little slower or faster in granting promotions/recognition of advancement.

Krav Maga is intuitive, easily explained, easily demonstrated, a great workout, and learning the entire system is usually completed within nine months. And nothing I said in the last statement is an objective fact.

Wow.. Scary stuff huh..
Indeed.

Get help...
I'm detecting a hostile vibe... I can't quite place it...

Lots of folks don't make things clear day 1, that's their problem... If it doesn't apply then there's no issue..

Lots of styles have no end.. If that's not a problem then there is no problem..

I don't happen to think 20 years should be needed to grasp any system/style..

Don't like that thinking? Too bad..

I don't find your attack polite either and so you get what you give...

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:20 pm

Jason Rees wrote:
Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal...
For pity's sake, can we all just bow to the awesomeness of WCK and get it over with? I mean, the system's so obviously superior to anything else out there; we have Jim here to tell us so.

OK guys take a breath and a step back.

Let's try to stay on topic and take the attacks off line.

Jason, what's your opinion on what Bill wrote on the first page?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:24 pm