Is a cigar just a cigar?

Bill's forum was the first! All subjects are welcome. Participation by all encouraged.

Moderator: Available

Post Reply
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I was chatting about this thread with Shana the other day. She was giving me feedback. She's a student of mine, and now studies with another of my students. That's a nice evolution, and a great way to get multiple views of a body of knowledge.

Shana was giving me the positives and negatives of the thread, her understanding of what I was trying to convey, etc. Understand that she has been a student of mine and knows first hand how I take complex things and strip them down to fundamental elements that we drill, and then slowly build the pieces back up again - sometimes in myriad directions. She "gets" first hand what I'm talking about.

As I was explaining to Shana, these threads are my proving ground for ideas and my ability to convey them. You think you have something down pat. Do you?

Try presenting brand new research at a scientific meeting where your jealous competitors are in the audience - waiting to find a flaw so that they can rip you to shreds in front of your peers. In grad school we were required to give one seminar a year in front of students, faculty, and guests. Often the professors would present new research at these seminars. And the grad students? Fresh meat for the profs who wanted them to learn what it's like to go out there in the real world with your ideas.

Do you know what I did? I made myself present not once, but twice a year. Every year. Some sessions went really well. And some... Oye! But I got the experience. In the words of Covey, I sharpened my saw.

As I told Shana, going up against a peanut gallery of folks with unknown agendas and motivations is a good way to see how well your ideas and thoughts are crystallized.

Scientific meetings are what you do before you submit that paper to a peer-reviewed journal. And even then it's often ripped apart by your peers until/when/if it gets accepted for publication.

These threads are great practice for that book... ;)

Is this part of my training? Or should I know it all in 3 to 5 years like some of my associates here?

Have you paid your dues in tournaments when a younger lad (or lassie)?

Do you teach? Actively? Continuously?

Do you write?

Do you think you know it all now?

And after years of putting your knowledge to good use, do you think it might be useful to reorganize that knowledge in a way that is easier to access in your brain?

Are you content with the way things are, or do you want to take martial information and leave your mark? What is the difference between the former individual and the latter?

Is what we do fixed and static, or is it fluid and constantly evolving? To what degree?

Is there just one way, or is martial information expressed at an individual level?

But there I go again... :lol: 8)

- Bill
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

Does it take forever to teach a Uechi student to fight? Consider that Mr. Rabesa told me he knew how to fight before his first class from George. I believe him. If you don't believe me, well...

And yet... he found value in his training.
Yup… Rabesa began the study of Uechi at the Mattson Academy where I had him as my star student in the competition team classes that I taught.

The stories that preceded him were sobering.

First off…he could bench press 400 lbs, and his 80 years old father, once Ko’d a punk waiter in a restaurant for dissing him.

George’s dojo produced some excellent fighters from day one…the list of us seniors in that category is a long one.

As to Rabesa I will tell a story, I know he won’t mind_

Recently he ran a seminar, same as I did last October, in Canada for Jim Maloney’s Black Belts, quite a bunch.

Now Rabesa has developed a ‘short power’ proficiency that defies belief. He will simply place a hand/fist/limb…against your body…and ‘fast twitch it’ from contact point…and then you collapse.

Now it just so happened that one of the Black belts in attendance, seriously questioned this ‘skill’ …. And stepped forward asking to be convinced.

Well, Rabesa has long apologized to both Maloney and the hapless black belt for what happened next:

He placed his fist against the person’s right side, under the ribs, and ‘twitched it’ without realizing he might have
Torqued too much.

Well the poor guy later stated he had felt a shock right down to his legs as he collapsed.

The technique had ruptured the muscle fascia and a lump from the intestines, I think, [maybe Bill can clarify] was now protruding.

He was rushed to the hospital where he had surgery and had to remain for nine days.

Oh well.
Van
User avatar
JimHawkins
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
Location: NYC

Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: There's an old saying that transcends martial arts. There are three stages to learning:
  • Watching
  • Doing
  • Teaching
That alone is in line with what you say, Jim. If I've taken a gifted athlete and taught him the entire Uechi system in 3 years, is he "finished"? Well... no.

And not for ANY system.
I would disagree.. It's not the same thing because it's not what I wrote...

It's very simple stuff.. It's a course, when you complete the course you are "done" with the course... Then you go on to your own practice or not, it's up to you...

Also teaching is just as much a part of learning the system as is learning the system... At each phase the student is required to learn how to teach it and does so.. By the time they finish they have already taught the system many times over to many, many students...

Now, that doesn't mean we stop learning, no intelligent person ever stops learning but it does mean you graduated... For some folks that may mean they are finished for others it may mean the beginning of a new experience......
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
User avatar
JimHawkins
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
Location: NYC

Post by JimHawkins »

Van Canna wrote: But ‘master level’ after seven years of training is nothing short of ridiculous.
These are labels.. I would never call myself a master even after having mastered...

The fact is that this is the traditional way of referring to those who complete the course..

It's a title... I don't make this stuff up.. I simply report it...

Folks who graduate will vary in skill... However for those who have the ability 5-7 years is long enough to develop a very high level of skill by today's TMA standards.. That's IF the training is correct and of quality...

Why does this even matter?

Does one system have to be the same as the next?

The last "master" of the system I met I ended up palming across the room during some polite play.. No master there I thought to myself, but that is the nature of the game... MA are not regulated and so you have all kinds of hyperbolic titles that in reality mean nothing..
Van Canna wrote: I don’t think that WC is under attack in these discussions…it is the claims about the system that are scrutinized.
No *I* was attacked... In some cases just for mentioning/comparing WCK or parts thereof..

Yes we've all done some dumb things in the past.. Some folks will say or do anything to protect their sacred ego..

Folks can "attack" WCK all they want for all I care.. I have no problem with any discussions of the system... Most folks in the system don't know much about it so why would I care what folks who don't know anything about say? I don't.... Most WCK suks... Most TMA suk, see, I dissed WCK, BFD..

I usually recommend that new folks try Judo....

If knowledgeable folks disagree then sometimes reasonable folks just disagree.. So what?

Over at one of the WCK forums we have regulars who hate the system.. Yeah I lost all kinds of sleep over them... :lol: No, I am an adult who is comfortable with what I do..

I can debate with the best of them... However childish personal attacks and lies are just that and will be treated as such..
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
maxwell ainley
Posts: 1690
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Location: england

Post by maxwell ainley »

Sanchin expresses three tactical useages for mawashi uke ,that have multi spin offs ,and multi use [inbetween motions].
max ainley
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

These are labels.. I would never call myself a master even after having mastered...

The fact is that this is the traditional way of referring to those who complete the course..
Yup…In Uechi we have the ‘master ranks’ awarded after Godan…

So there are labels in martial arts, true.

I always short stop the ‘master’ moniker when personally addressed as I think it is ridiculous as well.

To me a master is someone like Kanei Uechi for the grand reasons Bill outlined.
Folks who graduate will vary in skill... However for those who have the ability 5-7 years is long enough to develop a very high level of skill by today's TMA standards.. That's IF the training is correct and of quality...
True in Uechi as well, but it doesn’t stop there as there is much more to the system that meets the eye and that takes time.

And high levels of skill to me are represented by someone like Shinjo sensei who put them to the test in the ferocious tournaments of
Okinawa where he reigned as undisputed heavy weight champ for ten years, in addition to the formidable body conditioning and hitting power you see today.

To me that is a real master and not some of the fluff I have seen strutting about over the years in many different systems.

We used to get them in the Boston dojo and more often that not they’d end up kissing the barbells on the floor in one corner of the dojo.

Once we had a ‘japanese master’ of some style, who demanded of George to relinquish control of his dojo to him because he was Japanese and a master. He then proceeded to attempt to intimidate our group with his student’s fighting prowess to prove his point.

Not long after they withdrew with their tails between their legs…and lucky enough to still be able to walk. We did get the ass-holes in the dojo now and then. They were too stupid to realize that a dojo challenge is never a win situation.

No *I* was attacked... In some cases just for mentioning/comparing WCK or parts thereof...
Well, that’s no good…but you must ask yourself…why...why is it that your comments elicit such attacks whereas others do not?

Maybe there is a lesson in there to be learned for all of us.
Yes we've all done some dumb things in the past.. Some folks will say or do anything to protect their sacred ego...
Yup...that is the human condition I keep bringing up. Something to be expected and to be wary of.

Occasionally this also happens in person with the idiot thanking God he just was able to get away with it this time…not knowing how lucky he was.

We have all had those experiences and we must develop ways to forestall such incidents in real life or the price to pay becomes suddenly too high.

Internet real violence is now here to stay and the fights we may envision in a challenge will never go down the way we imagine them.

And from a tactical viewpoint I advise you not to publish an intent of personal challenge. No good will ever come from it.
Van
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"Internet real violence is now here to stay and the fights we may envision in a challenge will never go down the way we imagine them.

And from a tactical viewpoint I advise you not to publish an intent of personal challenge. No good will ever come from it."



Yeah very true....I like and respect Shana ..................she is very diplomatic...........that is a very good thing.maybe we need more women's input here..
Gene DeMambro
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A

Post by Gene DeMambro »

Is it against the Uechi commandments to "do it" with large protein powder jars filled with something heavy?
And to think you could have saved a few hundred greenbacks with this alone, Bill...oye!

Gene
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene DeMambro wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
Is it against the Uechi commandments to "do it" with large protein powder jars filled with something heavy?
And to think you could have saved a few hundred greenbacks with this alone, Bill...oye!

Gene
Did you bother checking out the whole diet of the person using said supplement before posting?

I wasn't aware that protein in the diet was a bad thing. If it is, please supply the references (in another thread).

Do you have a problem with someone sprinkling protein powder on their Shredded Wheat with skim milk? Maybe the chocolate flavored protein powder makes the Shredded Wheat taste better. Maybe it's a better alternative than eggs, bacon, and buttered toast in the morning. Maybe THAT source of protein is healthier than many sources of animal protein. Maybe it's more convenient than cracking some eggs to make egg whites. And it doesn't take as many trips to the grocery store per ounce of protein, and doesn't require refrigeration.

I suppose someone could save a few hundred greenbacks by not eating.

I suppose someone who does regular weight training could save a few hundred greenbacks by going on a calorie-restricted diet. Might even lose some weight that way. Fat weight... Muscle weight... That might even win them membership to group therapy sessions for anorexia/bulemia. That's as good a social outlet as any. And if you think I'm being needlessly sarcastic here, guess again. I've had many such karate students in my classes through the years. Sometimes I might even bump into them in the pharmacy purchasing a laxative.

Obsession with food can be a bad thing. If someone is healthy (an old fart with a healthy weight on NO meds with low blood pressure and low cholesterol) then maybe there's nothing wrong. As they say, if it ain't broke then don't fix it.

MEANWHILE....

One doesn't have to consume said product to get those jars. If you hang around a gym where there are bodybuilders, you'll find folks who go through these large jars. They could end up in the county landfill, or you could think green and recycle. These athletes eat a ton, and need very special diets. They are a great free source for these jars. Free is good.

And they DO make good American-style Uechi jar training devices. That was after all the point.

If not that, then one could go to a local deli and get pickle jars. That works as well.

The point is to be creative with what you have. Lifestyle judgment need not apply here.

- Bill
User avatar
robb buckland
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: Wells Beach , Me.
Contact:

Before there were jars and protein powdered training aids...

Post by robb buckland »

"Now, that doesn't mean we stop learning, no intelligent person ever stops learning but it does mean you graduated... For some folks that may mean they are finished for others it may mean the beginning of a new experience......"
When I have the opportunity to have my "basics" critiqued by another "Master"......I jump at the opportunity...I hope I never GRADUATE !!!!!!
FEARS Ltd
"Art meets Reality"
www.fearsltd.com
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

robb

The problem happens when practitioners think they've "finished" learning. When the cup is full, there is no room. And many walk around with full cups.

The smartest and most competent experts I know in any field are hungry for knowledge. And some of the best understand the importance of dusting off and restructuring lessons learned from the past. Sure, it is important to be confident in oneself and not to shy away from self-exploration and creativity. But it's also important to bump up against others for a reality check.

Stay hungry, robb. It will serve you well.

- Bill
MikeK
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Post by MikeK »

Bill Glasheen wrote:The problem happens when practitioners think they've "finished" learning. When the cup is full, there is no room. And many walk around with full cups.
And there's not problem with that as long as the current knowledge base allows the person to adequately function. I've known very talented folks in several fields who always felt that their knowledge was lacking and kept feeling they needed one more thing before they could teach, or play in a band or even get a job. Sometimes you just have to go with what you got and get the job done. IMO the problem arises when that knowledge base stops being adequate and the person didn't even know it. Seen that happen more times than I care to count. There's a balance between being the forever student and getting on with the job at hand.

Bill Glasheen wrote:The smartest and most competent experts I know in any field are hungry for knowledge. And some of the best understand the importance of dusting off and restructuring lessons learned from the past. Sure, it is important to be confident in oneself and not to shy away from self-exploration and creativity. But it's also important to bump up against others for a reality check.
Very true.
I was dreaming of the past...
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

IMO the problem arises when that knowledge base stops being adequate and the person didn't even know it. Seen that happen more times than I care to count. There's a balance between being the forever student and getting on with the job at hand.
Bingo.

Lots of talk and lots of assumptions by people who should know better, but they don't...as Rory points out so well.

They imagine a fight according to their belief system...and when the fight occurs in so many different variations...they revstunned by it and even change styles to compensate...blaming the style instead of the self...so they can save face and keep functioning.
Van
MikeK
Posts: 3665
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Post by MikeK »

Van Canna wrote:They imagine a fight according to their belief system...
And it could very well fit into their belief system either by a controlled environment or chance. This cross cuts most anything that a person trains for; I've mostly seen it in MA, software development and playing live. If everything is like practice you are pretty good to go, if things aren't then it's a matter of how quick you can adapt to what's in front of you. Holding onto belief in how something should be when it's not is a sure fire recipe for failure.
I was dreaming of the past...
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Yeah
Comes back to the old adage Keep.It.Simple.Stupid ( Kiss).........they knew something in the old days 8) ....a fit,hard body and a mind ready to adapt :wink:
Post Reply

Return to “Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable”