Form or Function? Jitsu or Do?

[maxwell ainley]

In my own study ,over the years on forms .

I was told ,each form was attempting to communicate fighting principles ,we rushed from one form to another never really digesting much ,our sparring did not in the slightest resemble the style or the form .Then we received some better instruction from within the massive asso ,we now were into the raw basics of bunkai ,yet within this state of affairs people ranked were changing the moves here there and everywere ,and they did not know what they were doing ,I say this because they were not my betters ,and I truly did not comprehend the Kata ,we could all kick n punch in a fashion .

[jorvik]

The form is really nothing, in one sense.it is the techniques in the form that are practised then the form.then you see the relevance of the form, in training something that you have already learned ................A lot of folks start out wrongly and train the form then look for ways to make the form work.imagining all sort of complex movements and stratagies that really don't exist ..Really that is a modern and not a classical approach........the classical martial artists does it the way I describe.first the techniques then the form with the techniques in it ...most modern martial artists , MMA as an example see classical martial arts in the " Form comes first" catagorie.and this is wrong.the product of bad teaching....if they could see the true classical approach they would be much more in agreement with it's use

[robb buckland]

Form - Function - Feeling , thats how I was told the process of deceminating Fighting Skill from a fighting drill(or form) worked...no ?




So many words so little time.....

[jorvik]

One thing I like that Rory Millar said was about distinguishing between an assault and an ambush.
I interpret this maybe in a different way than he meant it ......but what I'm thinking of here is in terms partly of "Do" and Jutsu" and partly in terms of style.
Taking style first, I believe that certain styles are designed for an ambush or a surprise attack and others are for straight on fighting.so say Aikido and Tai-Chi would be the former and Thai boxing or wrestling might be the latter

now as to "do" and justsu I don't know how this may carry over....one might have to develop Do in the sense of awerness and this is also something that is striven for in Zen and meditation practices, and also something that you would need to survive a surprise attack.but you see you would never be surprised because you would always be aware..................there is a tale that I like very much of a Japanese Yoga master walking along a street and a thief grabs hold of him but feels no resistance......so he believes that the Yoga master is a great martial artist and throws himself on the floor and begs forgiveness........ this is also an example of having jutsu ( or at least the thief thinks so) ..yet also realising that Do represents the jutsu.......in fact in this sense Do is an extension of jutsu.a higher jutsu if you like.......and in my burg we may face Samurai armed with boxcutters and sawn down shotguns.but it stll works I guess

[maxwell ainley]

The Shu stage.

Learn the form first ,that used to be the uechi-ryu way ,such as you devote all your training time to the form ,not for a day ,or a week ,or months .No not any of that ,more like years on end .
When classifying things within certain methodologies ,I tend to see that things can be misleading to readers ,for a instance when I say learn the form first ,that's exactly what you do ,its stamped and sealed ,it means what it says .

Uechi-ryu is not taught like that ,only in very rare instances ,my point is ,it embraces function more or less straight away ,very few teachers will have you doing sanchin stepping for months on end in similar fashion to say "Kanryo Higagonna ".
Now I am in no way attempting to say one way is better than another ,just clarifying matters and most of all methodologies .

[jorvik]

The only problem with that approach is with the quality of your teacher or teachers. From my personnal experience in Tai-Chi and Wing-Chun I have come across many,many teachers who don't have a clue what they are doing or why they are doing it .....I knew one guy who won first prize in a forms competition but who didn't know a single application of the form and another guy who had a blackbelt in aikido and didn't know any throws or breakfalls.............in the wing-Chun that I do now we are constantly told to keep our elbow one fist length away from our body.but it's only my current sifu who has ever taken the time to explain why this is so important..............if you go to a teacher who just teaches the form and keeps on telling you that if you just keep practising the form that someday you will get it.....then they are not worth learning from......once you can ride a bike you don't have to keep on practising how to ride a bike....you can move onto other things.....what folks need is a clear path with clearly defined goals to follow that path.and a skill level to aim for

[maxwell ainley]

Ray ,just clarifying .

I fully accept your points.

But again not to confuse readers on form then function in the methodology I say used to be Uechi-ryu there is a clear cut time devoted to form ,then there is a clear cut starting point for function in other words they are mixed together much later

This methodology is different than modern uechi-ryu I say this so not to confuse readers upon the transition from form to function /

[maxwell ainley]

Ray ,
" The only problem with that approach is the quality of your teacher or teachers".

Any and all approach's will have problems with teacher's quality regardless of method .

In our style/system ,Kanbun brought back one set of functions for one specific kata now we all roughly are aware there are many more functions to that specific kata ,there is a clear cut methodology to one specific set of functions taught and that's it ,Ray its at this point we in this methodology encounter a serious problem ,a second set of functions [your own ] now this is a clear cut problem that will present itself at some point in moving from a plate full of functions given to you, and a crisis point of making the transitional step into your own .

[jorvik]

There are two things that I believe about Eastern martial arts, and here I particularly mean Chinese martial arts. The first is that they are effective and taught in a realistic manner, i.e. no second guessing, everything has a reason and a purpose ( although we may not always agree with it, or understand it e.g. Chi,Ki etc) .but you don't need to pull things out of the air and say, this technique might mean this or maybe that
And secondly that they are taught in such a way as to develop the practitoner so that they do not become some kind of psychopath, but can effectively defend themselves.............I also believe that a lot of these approaches have been lost, what my friend Jim calls the "classical disconnect"...and because they are not commonly available folks in the West started creating their own MMA approach..and now folks think that is the be all end all

[robb buckland]

".........what folks need is a clear path with clearly defined goals to follow that path........."

Wouldn't that be nice !!! :lol:

".....very few teachers will have you doing sanchin stepping for months on end in similar fashion to say "Kanryo Higagonna ".

Americans have a fast food mentality and this wouldn't fit well with the "instant gratification crowd".....I want fat blockers 'cause I'm too lazy to diet and exercise !!!!!

[jorvik]

Quote
"A clear path
"......... what folks need is a clear path with clearly defined goals to follow that path........."

Wouldn't that be nice !!! "

I don't see why it should be a problem ....look at our Western arts, boxing is pretty progressive, you have to do certain things to gain the skills.and certain things to maintain them. Nobody would tell a Champion boxer to do the first thing he ever learned over and over again.so why should folks expect to just do the same old kata over and over again with no quantifiable gains in knowledge...............it shouldn't happen, but it does because folks accept it
look at the clip you showed of those folks doing Wing-Chun in protective equipment..........we should have more of that. doesn't matter what style you do, you should come to the point were you can fight.that is what it's all about

[maxwell ainley]

".........what folks need is a clear path with clearly defined goals to follow that path........."

Wouldn't that be nice !!! :lol:

".....very few teachers will have you doing sanchin stepping for months on end in similar fashion to say "Kanryo Higagonna ".

Americans have a fast food mentality and this wouldn't fit well with the "instant gratification crowd".....I want fat blockers 'cause I'm too lazy to diet and exercise !!!!!

We also have these types here in the UK ,a Okinawan master was over here teaching ,and he mentioned its the same on Okinawa .

Personally I have not been brought up on a fast food diet ,All we got for christmas was a apple and orange or a selection box as kids ,a single football was sheer luxury , give us that ball and we would fire it thousands of reps at a goal ,out of those reps we produced world class pro's .

In that mannerism I have never ever forgot those grass roots ,my approach to Karate was exactly the same thousands of reps of one thing over and over ,never got boring Basically I have never really suffered from the symptoms of boredom ,so you can say there was always a dominant element of patience there .

[jorvik]

I too, never grow tired of simplicity ..the best things in life are free.but you have to work to appreciate them

[maxwell ainley]

Quote
"A clear path
"......... what folks need is a clear path with clearly defined goals to follow that path........."

Wouldn't that be nice !!! "

I don't see why it should be a problem ....look at our Western arts, boxing is pretty progressive, you have to do certain things to gain the skills.and certain things to maintain them. Nobody would tell a Champion boxer to do the first thing he ever learned over and over again.so why should folks expect to just do the same old kata over and over again with no quantifiable gains in knowledge...............it shouldn't happen, but it does because folks accept it
look at the clip you showed of those folks doing Wing-Chun in protective equipment..........we should have more of that. doesn't matter what style you do, you should come to the point were you can fight.that is what it's all about

A few things that turn a Kata into as Ray says "same old kata"

Taking the Kata for granted , produces the same old functions endlessly .

You have left the old kata in the dojo ,and it will be still that same old kata next week when you decide to go again .

I have lost interest in that same old kata ,after a bit of soul searching I fully realise [negative state talking] I can't fathom it .

I demand instant answer's for this same old Kata that is going know were fast .

Basically we need meaning ,but we have to learn to adopt the right attitude to aquire new meaning .

[jorvik]

Quote
"Basically we need meaning ,but we have to learn to adopt the right attitude to aquire new meaning "
I can only speak for myself here, the style I now do is Wing-Chun and the "meaning".is hard to grasp without being shown it, and you don't need to do kata to find it...wing Chun is a "soft-Hard" style..........one of my friends talks about "his Wing-Chun" and "my Wing-Chun".he's a clever guy and he's Chinese .but to me he has missed something essential .and that is the "softness".he is good but not as good as our Sifu.because he is too hard....now I'm not knocking him, because he is 10 times better than I am...and seriously tough.but the softness is the most difficult thing to grasp..........you have to step out of your comfort zone and tregularly accept defeat from guys who'se hardness is nowhere near as hard as your own.but you need to do this to find the softness..all the old masters talk of this.....Chen man Ching says it best "invest in loss".....and it's like riding a bike, once you learn it , it is yours.......I'm at the stage where I may just be about ready to take of the stabilizers