Sigh... I've been avoiding any comment on this thread. I am very sorry to hear of Bert's loss... and also (re)saddened to (re)read your cousin's loss.Van Canna wrote:Good discussion, you make excellent points _ I'd like to also hear from Panther on this subject matter…it would be very educational.
I know it is tough to lose someone you love (no matter how it happens), but thinking that it was in any way "the gun's fault" for being "easily available" doesn't work for me. Since statistics and accidental shootings were both mentioned, here are some numbers:KentuckyUechi wrote:My personal experience, in the particular area I live, has been that statistically, accidental shootings, domestic disputes, etc. far outnumber home invasion deaths.
I hope this doesn't sound like a rebuttal, it's just more of my thoughts on the subject.
- In 2006 (the last year which I have numbers for) there were a total of 30,536 firearms deaths in the U.S. with a population of nearly 300 million.
Of those 30,536, 642 were accidents. I fully agree that a single accidental death is tragic. That represents an accidental firearm death rate of 0.2 per 100,000 and is the accidental death rate for all firearms for all age groups.
Of those 30,536, 12,791 were homocides. Again this is tragic, but someone bent on killing another human will do so with or without a firearm. Also, to reiterate, these figures include all firearms.
Of those 30,536, 16,883 were suicides. Well over half of all firearm deaths in the U.S. were suicides. This makes them no less tragic, but in coutries that have instituted extreme gun control measures (up to and including complete bans on private gun ownership), suicide rates did not fall but the methods to accomplish the task were changed. (It brings a tear to my everytime I think of that poor girl in MA, Phoebe Prince, who took her own life because of being constantly harassed and bullied... She didn't use a firearm... she hung herself over the railing from the second floor... terrible, terrible tragedy... ). That holds worldwide. In Canada, Australia and England firearms suicides dropped, but the overall suicide rates remained constant or even increased with the method of choice changing. Replacement methods became hanging, jumping from tall buildings/bridges/etc, and poisoning (from various substances including taking intentional overdoses of pills to carbon monoxide to injesting lethal chemicals available in many stores). For 2006 in the U.S., the overall suicide number was 33,300. Therefore just over half used firearms (of all types).
- In 2006 in the U.S., there were 1,579 firearms deaths out of 73,668,012 children ages 0-17.
Of those 1,579, 102 were accidents with about half of those for ages 0-14 & half for 15-17. Again, I fully agree that a single accidental death is tragic and one too many. That is the accidental death rate for all firearms, but compare it to other accidental deaths for children... 934 from drowning, 451 from fire, 416 from poisoning, 138 from cycling, 130 from falling, 1,136 from suffocation... The winner goes to: 4,288 from motor vehicles! And while the reported numbers are less than firearms, there were 91 "environmental" accidental deaths (don't ask me what those are, I'd be guessing) and 64 from MEDICAL accidents.
Of those 1,579, 1,082 were homocides. Again this is tragic, but 797 of those homicides were in the 15-17 age range and includes many "gang bangers". Also, to reiterate (yet again), these figures include all firearms.
Of those 1,579, 371 were suicides. And here's the tragedy of that number... 309 were in the 15-17 age range and 62 were in the 10-14 age range. NO ONE below the age of 10 commited suicide with a firearm. # children from 0-9 commited suicide by other means... While I'm on this tangent, in the 10-14 age range 154 children commited suicide by other means and in the 15-17 age range 412 commited suicide by other means.
I apologize if this sounds callous and I really don't mean it to be, but numbers are just... well... numbers and statistics are just... well... statistics. The fact is that we need to do more to prevent those who want to take their own lives (by whatever means is not the issue... it's WHY they feel that way). And... more needs to be done to stop those who are out to do harm to others (by whatever means should not be the issue... it's the fact that there are bad people out there that need to be stopped)!
IMNSHO, having a personal rescue tool (a firearm that one is well trained to utilize) is important in stopping the bad guys.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A pistol-grip, short-barrelled shotgun (with an extended magazine and tactical light attachment) is a good self-defense tool for a home. I have the Remington version of the Mossberg that Sensei posted... but I prefer the tactical Benelli. The 12 ga is a little strong for the wife, so she has a 20 ga, but (except for the fact that ammo is hard to find sometimes) I think the 16 ga is a great shotgun. I don't quite agree with the #8-#9 pellets for every round. Ours are loaded:
Round 1 & 2: #8 Bird-shot
Round 3 - 5: #4 buck shot
Round 6 - 8: #00 buck shot
Round 9 & 10: Rifled Slugs
FYI, Here's the thinking behind that...
First two rounds will do damage close range, but will be stopped by thick wall-board fairly closely.
Next three rounds have pellets that are the same size as a .17 bullet and there are around 27 of them per round (12 ga). They do more damage in case the first two didn't have the desired effect, but they are also stopped by wall-board (barely, but they stop... trust me...)
Next three rounds have pellets that are the same size as a .22 bullet and thare are ~a dozen per round (12 ga). If I have to keep shooting at this point, I'm no longer concerned with what's behind the attacker, the threat hasn't stopped and needs to be stopped!
Last two rounds... If I get to this point, all bets are off and I'm looking to destroy the continuing threat by whatever means necessary.
Shotguns are best for home defense if they are in the configuration above. Otherwise the best bet is a handgun. I once had someone say to me, "Why do you carry a handgun? You expecting trouble?" I replied, "No, if I was expecting trouble I'd have brought a rifle and a tactical shotgun not a handgun! Why do you have a fire-extinguisher in your house? You expecting a fire?" Naturally the answers to his and my questions are the same... No, I'm not expecting anything, but I'm prepared just in case.
And a final word on home defense firearms with kids in the house... I've had fireams of various types in the house as long as I can remember. I have always been taught and always trained that you don't pull the trigger on a target that you have not fully identified.
While the firearms rules that were listed before are the basics, here are my additions/modifications to the firearms rules:
2. Never point a gun at something you do not want to destroy.
Case in point, when I was a young boy I had a toy soldier that I played with and was fond of. My Daddy was target practicing with a .22 rifle and teaching us gun safety and shooting. At one point I said, "Here, shoot THIS!" and proceeded to setup my toy soldier along with the other targets we were replacing. My Daddy proceeded to put a single round directly through the heart area of the little chest of that toy soldier (from ~200'). When we were safe and went to retrieve targets, I said, "Wow, you SHOT it!" My Daddy pointed out that it wasn't any good for playing any more and that's what a gun can do. They don't ask for respect, they DEMAND it.
3 & 4 are part of the NRA's Eddie Eagle program. I've personally paid for that program to be given in around a dozen places (including elementary and middle schools) in the area. Check it out...
5. While this one is good, the fact is that there is only ONE safety for a firearm and that's the one between your ears...
6. Don't rely on gun locks... EVER. I have been able to remove a gun lock provided by the PD that is State and Federal approved by smacking it just the right way! I have been able to fire a handgun with a PROPERLY attached, approved gun-lock. (Yeah, I know they're not supposed to be loaded, but it was for demonstration and I loaded it intentionally to prove the point.) I have been able to "jimmy" open a gun lock using a key from a different gun lock! Yes, I put them on my firearms and you know what... the only damn time they seem to work is when I'm at the range and can't get the key to open the damn thing!
7. If you want to do that, it's up to you. I was once stopped by a cop who asked me if my carry gun was loaded. I told him that it's not any good empty and I don't plan on using it to throw or as a club.
I do NOT think that only military and police should have firearms and I don't believe they should have any special waivers for any rules or laws pertaining to firearms. Safe storage is great... to a point. As I said before and I want to reiterate again... NO ONE should EVER shoot at ANYTHING that they haven't FULLY IDENTIFIED as a target... EVER. I don't care if it's a loud noise in the middle of the night and you wake up and think that the proverbial schit is hitting the phan... It MIGHT be your kid who's snuck out of the house while you were asleep and is too drunk (even underage) to sneak back in quietly. Sure, you get your home defense tool, but you don't USE it unless it is necessary. AND... This I speak of from FIRST-HAND experience with a (now) 24 year-old who got grounded, but certainly wasn't fired on! I've been waken up plenty of times in the middle of the night by "young-uns" and never even come close to shooting one! On the other hand... IF it is truly a home-defense situation... Identify the target and do what needs to be done. I've been waken up in the middle of the night by someone who wasn't supposed to be there as well. Everyone survived that as well... Some in better shape than others.
(BTW, spackle over those little holes that the #8 or #4 make works, but no one ever seems to discuss the mess you have to clean up BEFORE you can spackle the holes... Think about it... The responding PD doesn't do that for you...)
As was said before, this isn't meant to be callous and I'm truly sorry for the tragedies that people have suffered.