Good talk on blocks

[Van Canna]

Pomfret, Joe »

OK, I have gone over the posts and about five people said they would bite.

I then propose that the fourth animal representing our esteemed system is... you guessed it, the dog.

As myself and others have pointed out, it's bad to attack when you need to escape first.

Fighting from the bottom is not a very good option. Escape first.

Unfortunately, I've been bitten twice. Does it hurt? Yes! Did it stop me from my intended objective? Absolutely not.


Joe

[Van Canna]

jorvik »

Biting the nose......taught to the parachute regiment in the UK....as an accepted way to deal with an enemy......wouldn't go down too well at a no holds barred fight.

jorvik

[Van Canna]

The 'nose biting' result, is something I have seen that happened to a police officer while making an arrest at the Brockton fair...where I was investigating an embezzlement...

He told me it had happened while he was closing the distance with a punk to handcuff him...and there was no way for him to anticipate that or defend against.

I keep warning students in class about this real possibility they don't even give it a thought with all the talk of closing in on an opponent because 'Uechi is a phone booth style'

Yeah right...if a teacher doesn't even mention the possibility of having your nose bitten off...then get rid of him. Screw the 'phone booth' BS

The bloody chunk bitten off your nose will be yours to deal with.



You will be psychologically destroyed along with the physical.

Your first line of defense when taking up martial arts is against the BS fed to you by some teachers.

[Van Canna]

Dana Sheets »

I took the FAST defense ground basics last year. We were shown 2-3 ways to get out of being mounted on top.

a. if they had you in a front choke
b. if they were punching you
c. crap...I can't remember the third one. (Alan or Heather or Don...Help!)

Anyway-

a. put your arms above your head and grab your own forearms. Bring your locked together arms down hard on their arms choking you. (Trap). Now, plant your legs OUTSIDE the width of their body. Thrust really hard with ONE of your hips, using your planted leg a support. (Buck & roll).

Twist so that your feet are facing them and your head is away from them. Twist up on one hip with your forearms on the ground supporting you. Use your legs to pummle the crap out of them (groin, groin, --scoot up--head head head head head head until they stop moving).

When they stop moving, get up and look around to see if there is anyone else waiting to attack you. If there is, deal with them or leave the scene quickly, if not, leave the scene quickly.

b. bring your arms up close to your face to guard. Then grab onto them (shoulders, armpits, spare tire, whatever you can grab) plan your legs OUTSIDE...continue as in "a." above.

It may seem...unmanly to use your legs instead of your arms when you're on the ground..but it is quite effective.

Van's seen the video from what I just described - and anyone else who's gone through the FAST defense ground basics can speak to it as well.

Dana

[Van Canna]

Of course the standard old come back BS to this is:

Uechi is a defensive style, we have no interest in proving anything against those UFC guys in a sport contest. Self defense will be against the average street punk who will not be able to deal with our "techniques of doom" from our traditional system.

My answer= maybe yes, maybe not...

The truth being swept under the rug is that there are street punks, bigger, stronger and more violent in intent and physical mass than some of the NHB fighters...and they don't need any martial arts training to bury your ass in a pine box.

[Van Canna]

f.Channell »

Joe,
Right everyone has different tolerences to pain. Some sick drugged or drunk people can probably take a groin squeeze and shrug it off, same with a bite.

I've seen fight films of guys with flexible elbows refuse to tap out of an arm bar and not have it break. I've met a few guys that I can't choke no matter how bad I squeeze that neck.

I think an eye gouge may be another to add to the list of those types of techniques.

There always has to be a back up plan in case those "techniques of death" fail to work.

Problem is once they are mounted and pounding on you, as I see in the UFC, you have to act fast and no second chance.
f.

[Van Canna]

Rick Wilson »

Joe:

“I'm trying to help people think through a situation that they could find themselves in when in a real fight.”

Hang in there Joe and keep at it.

Uechi guys in the school I used to train at a number of years ago were told not to waste their time working with me on the ground because Uechi guys do not go to the ground.

Yes, I had them claim that they would stand in Sanchin and laugh while I futilely attempt a double leg takedown. Until they went on their butts that is.

Believe it or not I was once even told by someone that chokes don’t work because he had put a choke on a guy once and it didn’t stop him? My response was – then you didn’t have it on right.

Keep at it!
Rick Wilson

[Van Canna]

JoeLauzon »

I will say that controlling an enemy's balance while standing is quite possible and a focus of WCK this is our first line of offence against going down.

Staying up isn't an option most of the time if someone wants to take you down.

I hope you never have an altercation with someone who wants it to go to the ground.

Balance does you no good when someone has you off the ground and on their shoulder.


If I was mounted, what would I do?

First, I would hide my head by holding them close, and keeping my head close to their side, concealed by their arm and ribs.

I would do this until they tried to pry me away, and then I would control their arm so they have no base on that side.

I would then secure their foot on that same side, and buck my hips up, and roll to that side in one quick efficient motion. Id then be in guard.

Balance is good, but base is better. You can balance all day, but if someone lifts you off the ground, like with a double leg takedown, where are you? Oh yes, about 5 feet in the air. Can you fly?

If you steal his balance he cannot take you down.

Can you please explain this to me? If someone is trying to shoot in on you (take you down), what do you mean by steal their balance.

Many NHB fighters are wrestlers, who are the kings of base, do you think they are missing out on something that will soon be revealed to them?

--Joe Lauzon

[Van Canna]

Laird>>

I expect most fights to go to the ground. I have not done my home work and will be in a world of sh*t if taken to the ground. I have enjoyed this thread it has given me lots to ponder and explore. The big light bulb is the one that comes on and says get off your A$$ and train this stuff Laird.

I realise that I should trap buck and roll. I also realise that because I do not train to defend against the mount I probably will fail big time trying to get an experienced grappler off my chest.

I think unless train this stuff ,under the coctail your just going to revert to what you do. (and get your face beat in)

After attempting my slow clumsy trap and buck, I'd start eating punches. I would then try Laird stuff. I would grab the back of the guys head by the hair (both hands)and try and pull him into a head butt.

I would only get 1 in if luck cause the other guy could lock out his arms. (this would give me a chance at an elbow)

But the inital reaction to the head butt would be to retreat(pull head up) I would assist the retreat by pushing the chin . At the same time I would try to pull the head back to my chest by the hair at the back of the head. This twists the head and cranks the neck big time.

This I hope would result in tipping the guy a bit to one side . It might create some space ,so when the head crank happens I'd try to buck again and try to get a knee up between us to push with.

If I was playing with an experienced grappler I would be in a world of Sh*t cause I just offered him both of my elbows to break .

Got to learn this stuff some day soon.

Laird

[Van Canna]

JoeLauzon »

Shaolin wrote:

In extremely simple terms it's a variant of controlling the 'clinch.' To control the 'clinch' means you prevent the opponent from stealing your balance by doing it to him first.

I dont think it is so simple to control from the clinch, and steal someones balance. Now granted you may be able to, but the real reason I think you would have trouble stelaing from the clinch is that there would be no clinch.

The grappler would first be outside striking range, then he could throw a jab or fake a jab and shoot in. You would be worrying about blocking, and before you know it, he is around your legs and your knees are secured tightly together.

Go watch my fight if youd like to see someone shoot the moment they are in striking range. http://tapout.no-ip.info/mma/LauzonHunter.WMV

After attempting my slow clumsy trap and buck, I'd start eating punches. I would then try Laird stuff. I would grab the back of the guys head by the hair (both hands)and try and pull him into a head butt.

Maybe, maybe not. Before I started BJJ, wi wouldve tried the same stuff, Id pull people onto me and try anything. Within 2 weeks of taking BJJ, I was 10 times more confiedent about defending myself in a fight. Granted, I had only touched on the system, but I could escape mount which I learned my first class, was THE WORST position to be in.

I was there so often, that I had to learn to escape. Pulling the hair is good if they have some, but i think most people would have too short for you to grab. I think a better idea would be what Joe P said, grab them around the neck and shoulder (one arm over their shoulder, the other hand under their armpit), and try to bring them in that way.


The other question you must ask is, "Can I end this guy with one good headbutt or shot when I am on my back?" I know I would say "No way!". He would be able to hit me with much more authority and power than I could him, so I would especially not want to try and hit him and give him any ideas.

He may not be striking that much, but you hit him in the face once, and the "Rain" will come down. If someone is mounted on me, I want them to forget all about punching, and if nothing else, keep them occupied trying to hold mount.

Joe Lauzon

[Van Canna]

Joe Lauzon>>

Another question to the dedicated groundfighters out there , when you talk of reaching up and grabbing , how are you actually meaning , I`m under the Impression to never extend your arms to far , are you meaning under there arms and around ? , does this lesson their options ?

Under their arms and around their back is one very good way, as it allow you to hide your head rather well. Its a good idea to buck your hips forward. and then grab as high as you can under their arms.

This does a few very good things. First. your head is almost in their armpit, if you pull your head off to one side and hide it. You definately wont get hit by any power shots from this position.

In order to hit you, they must use short armed hook type punches, which have no real power. The other thing that is good, is all of your weight is hanging on their back.

Some people wont know how to get you away, and it adds more weight to their back, but most importantly it gives you time to think of what to do.

Joe Lauzon

[Van Canna]

Joe Lauzon>>

You can see rigth from the start, the BJJ guy takes him right off the ground. The Karate guys first mistake was charging the BJJ guy.

a BJJ guys eyes light up when they see someone running at them with intention to hit them. He is going to shoot in and take them down, or even lift them off the ground into the air.

No matter how good your balance is or whatever, when you are in the air, you are in the air and I hope you brought your magic carpet if you think you can hold your balance there.

He could have defended the takedown batter. But at that point, he is already on the ground before he can react.

I think his second problem is his stance, knowing he is going against a ground fighter, you dont want to stand straight up with your back totally straight like that.

A guy is going to be diving for your legs, bend them and hunch a little bit, so you can shift your weight and bounce out of the way or sprawl.

Joe P did a GREAT sprawl against his last opponent. Joe did EVERYTHING you want to do with a sprawl.

Once that guy in the video was on the ground, you can see him reahcing up with both hands for the grapplers neck, and maybe trying to gouge eyes and fish hook his mouth?

Not a good idea, as a grappler wants your arm there so he can armlock you.

The Karate guy wouldve been MUCH better to buck his hips as hard as he could to force the Karate guys upperbody to go over his face, and then reach around his back and under his arms to secure him down.

The fight would have gone much longer had he done this.

You NEVER want to extend your arms towards their face, because they will armlock you.

But, you can extend your arms to their hips, and reach around their back to secure them down.

joe lauzon

[Van Canna]

You NEVER want to extend your arms towards their face, because they will armlock you

.Joe

Guess any sanchin arm strikes are out when on the ground. It make sense...very easy to get arm locked.

[Van Canna]

Pomfret, Joe »

Joe Louzon, good points. You must have a terrific instructor. I think he taught you how to spell too !

If the readers, and contributors, take anything from these frantic postings, I hope it's these three things:

1. what to practice, or teach your students, as a basic mount escape.

2. There is no secret technique that will always keep you "rooted" to the ground, never to be toppled. That's absolute BS.

3. No matter who you are, or how long you've been training, keep learning and be open to ideas that are outside of the parameters of your personal or systemic style.

Just as I had suspected, you have heard unsubstantiated claims of abstract and unproven techniques that will make you invincible. I'm begging you to disregard this.

I have attempted to share techniques that many here have actually witnessed, and you can view for yourself on George's wonderful web-site. (And let's here it for George, if it wasn't for him we wouldn't be here now... typing away like mad men!)

let's also hear it for Van. He's one of the highest ranking Uechi people in the world, and brave enough to challenge it (Uechi Ryu) for the sake of the generations of practitioners that may/will rely on it well into the future.

Joe Pomfret

[Van Canna]

Hi Joe Lauzon,

Man that was a hell of a fight..Great job.

But even in looking at it in “film fashion” people will rationalize in their heads all kinds of “ways” mostly unproven, especially by the traditionalist who hasn’t been “mounted” ever, in his life.

Go get a ringside seat at a good NHB fight and experience the “horror” up close and personal.

Of course the best way is to get on the bottom and try to stop “the rain” with your great blocks and “pointy” little things…

before your body gives out from fatigue and glassy eyes..

Careful not to die of heart failure though…

Grappling work is real tough on the body and shocking to realize how little your super Uechi conditioning will allow you to withstand...

Try it and see..

Van