SuarezOne thing which must be present, is your full understanding of the Rules of Engagement under which you operate. In general, the Core Defensive Concept motivating most police use of force policies, as well as guidelines for civilians can be characterized by the acronym I.D.O.L. (Immediate Defense of Life).
When faced with a tactical problem requiring a likely deadly force decision, the operator (civilian, police, or whatever) must ask himself the question, “If I don’t stop this man - right now, will someone be killed or seriously injured by him”?
If the answer is “no”, or if there is any doubt, then immediate violence on your part is not the answer. The pure reason of this concept cannot be disputed. I hope I’ve answered the question of when “legally”. When “tactically” may be little different.
Good talk on blocks
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:03 am
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:07 am
SuarezI was called one day by an acquaintance from Europe. This man is one of those ultra-marathoners that eats tofu and grains and runs twenty miles a day while listening to Zen Rock.
He’d been to a course with me on the continent and knew that I frequented the desert regions from time to time.
He was intent on spending his vacation running across Death Valley!
After I discussed his sanity a few times, he assured me that it was not going to be a problem.
He was, however, concerned about the wildlife…more specifically snakes…rattlesnakes. They don’t have them in his part of the world and he wanted to know how he could tell one when he saw it. I told him, he’d know when he saw one.
The same goes for knowing that an aggressor means business. You’ll know.
First impressions are usually correct. Don't dismiss them.
There will the obvious clues (gun in hand, raised machete, etc.), and there will be some other not-so-obvious clues. Don’t try to rationalize them away.
Instead pay attention to them! They are saying,
“WHEN”.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:10 am
gary6dan »
You make a good point. Of course the "interview" or danger assessment can start evaluation at any distance. Not to imply that one has to be within 3 feet to be "read" or percieved as potential danger.
Only that, as one keeps some space between an opponent or potential attacker, you have a better chance of responding accourdingly when they do take motion to close the distance.
You can not engage until someone closes the distance enough to attack with contact. Unless, we are speaking of use of a firearm.
I think that the distance of awareness and mental prepareness is wherever one detects movement or noise (sound) that gains our attention as a "warning" or "alert" signal.
Not that we automatically go to "red alert" but acknowledge and become aware of something having potential.
Gary
You make a good point. Of course the "interview" or danger assessment can start evaluation at any distance. Not to imply that one has to be within 3 feet to be "read" or percieved as potential danger.
Only that, as one keeps some space between an opponent or potential attacker, you have a better chance of responding accourdingly when they do take motion to close the distance.
You can not engage until someone closes the distance enough to attack with contact. Unless, we are speaking of use of a firearm.
I think that the distance of awareness and mental prepareness is wherever one detects movement or noise (sound) that gains our attention as a "warning" or "alert" signal.
Not that we automatically go to "red alert" but acknowledge and become aware of something having potential.
Gary
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:21 am
One thing that I think folks in martial arts need to get their heads around is how really capable of inflicting stopping strikes are they, if an opponent is twice as big, twice as strong, and much younger and meaner. A street opponent is not the same as a dojo opponent in some bunkai.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:26 am
jorvik »
Folks think that they are ready for the bad guys, they aren't
.they really really aren't...they have no conception of what these folks are like.and also they are not all the same.they may be like animals but there are all different sorts of animal.
One guy was on my wife's ward he was about 20 but looked a lot younger..and was about 5Ft 6 tall weighed about 140lbs in a wet dufflecoat
came in with a really bad back injury, was totally obusive to the nurses.........
anyway the long and the short of it was that he was a gangster and the police came to arrest him, he had a guard at his bed side
and a nurse brought him a tray of food he threw it at the window.
So the police (two burly coppers) had to restrain him.it took both of them and they were at it for a good 5 minutes...my wife reckoned a normal person would not have been able to walk with that injury let alone fight .
So I look for a real world philosophy, and real world strength
........the philosophy goes back to 9/11 ..plane load of hard working nice folks on the plane, when a gang of nutters get it on and start with the boxcutters 
.what do you do!!
You are going to die, whatever happens...........the only choice you have to make is how you die
.I'd like to think that I would have the bravery to make the right choice, who knows ..same as on the streets.guy pulls a knife he can kill you, it's another 9/11 situation in my book.
As to technique there are a couple now, although I practice "arts" for real world you need a couple of good "stoppers"
jorvik
Folks think that they are ready for the bad guys, they aren't
.they really really aren't...they have no conception of what these folks are like.and also they are not all the same.they may be like animals but there are all different sorts of animal. One guy was on my wife's ward he was about 20 but looked a lot younger..and was about 5Ft 6 tall weighed about 140lbs in a wet dufflecoat
came in with a really bad back injury, was totally obusive to the nurses.........
anyway the long and the short of it was that he was a gangster and the police came to arrest him, he had a guard at his bed side
and a nurse brought him a tray of food he threw it at the window.
So the police (two burly coppers) had to restrain him.it took both of them and they were at it for a good 5 minutes...my wife reckoned a normal person would not have been able to walk with that injury let alone fight .
So I look for a real world philosophy, and real world strength
........the philosophy goes back to 9/11 ..plane load of hard working nice folks on the plane, when a gang of nutters get it on and start with the boxcutters .what do you do!! You are going to die, whatever happens...........the only choice you have to make is how you die
.I'd like to think that I would have the bravery to make the right choice, who knows ..same as on the streets.guy pulls a knife he can kill you, it's another 9/11 situation in my book.As to technique there are a couple now, although I practice "arts" for real world you need a couple of good "stoppers"
jorvik
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:29 am
I have to agree. Thinking we are ready when most of us are not…gives rise to false self confidence…the biggest killer there is.
One example of this, I have talked about forever it seems, is the necessary understanding of how the ‘fight or flight’ reflex affects our performance and the type of ‘performing’ when faced with, say, a couple of punks with drawn blades or a baseball bat _ seemingly out of nowhere.
We all like to think we are ready because of our years of training in one defensive discipline or another. That’s fine…but we need to understand the physiological and mental aspects of confronting real world violence and what might be needed to survive it.
Many still don’t get the whole picture as to how your body will react.
For example_ you are leaving a food shopping mega store pushing your cart loaded with groceries and wheeling it to your car in a more isolated spot of the parking lot.
Suddenly you are confronted by two punks with drawn blades “Hey you bitch, give us all your money or we’ll stick you like a pig” _ here is your immediate ‘challenge’ to action or ‘corpse inaction’ _
You go to ‘arousal’ in a split second. Arousal refers to those physical and psychological changes (biochemical) that occur in your body to prepare you to fight [if you are capable of it] _ or flee at maximum capacity.
These effects are linked primarily to the release of adrenaline by the body to create such readiness. While some arousal is necessary for optimal performance, excessive arousal can impede effective response.
Excessive arousal can be managed by knowledge to an extent.
One example of this, I have talked about forever it seems, is the necessary understanding of how the ‘fight or flight’ reflex affects our performance and the type of ‘performing’ when faced with, say, a couple of punks with drawn blades or a baseball bat _ seemingly out of nowhere.
We all like to think we are ready because of our years of training in one defensive discipline or another. That’s fine…but we need to understand the physiological and mental aspects of confronting real world violence and what might be needed to survive it.
Many still don’t get the whole picture as to how your body will react.
For example_ you are leaving a food shopping mega store pushing your cart loaded with groceries and wheeling it to your car in a more isolated spot of the parking lot.
Suddenly you are confronted by two punks with drawn blades “Hey you bitch, give us all your money or we’ll stick you like a pig” _ here is your immediate ‘challenge’ to action or ‘corpse inaction’ _
You go to ‘arousal’ in a split second. Arousal refers to those physical and psychological changes (biochemical) that occur in your body to prepare you to fight [if you are capable of it] _ or flee at maximum capacity.
These effects are linked primarily to the release of adrenaline by the body to create such readiness. While some arousal is necessary for optimal performance, excessive arousal can impede effective response.
Excessive arousal can be managed by knowledge to an extent.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:34 am
Arousal, you say? What is this?
Studies report two kinds of ‘arousals’ when in a serious confrontation.
1. Primary arousal
2. Secondary arousal
The Primary arousal comes from the challenge at hand and likely to promote effective action and survival.
Secondary arousal, immediately following on the coat tails of the primary, is different.
It is not challenge-focused and comes from factors that can distract _ you _ from the goals of success and survival in an encounter.
As examples, secondary arousal can come from worrying about whether you can handle the situation, whether adequate support and back-up will be present, during and after the event, whether training was sufficient, whether you have the adequate tools, strength , staying power...or what the consequences of your actions will be (sometimes called “reading tomorrow’s headlines”).
Secondary arousal can be a problem. It can be hard to control, so it interferes with performance.
It can be distracting and affect concentration. It can exaggerate the performance inhibiting effects of high stress.
At so many disparate levels of consequences, and during the training practice, whatever it might be, we need to at least visualize that increasing tension that will be part of the event for sure, and work ‘techniques’ and or proven tactics that will break the tension, ‘resetting’ stress build up _
reminding the self to continually ‘assess’ the psychological state and survival mindset that defines physical, mental/emotional/criminal/civil/financial aspects of the impending violence.
Who ever said self defense was easy?
Studies report two kinds of ‘arousals’ when in a serious confrontation.
1. Primary arousal
2. Secondary arousal
The Primary arousal comes from the challenge at hand and likely to promote effective action and survival.
Secondary arousal, immediately following on the coat tails of the primary, is different.
It is not challenge-focused and comes from factors that can distract _ you _ from the goals of success and survival in an encounter.
As examples, secondary arousal can come from worrying about whether you can handle the situation, whether adequate support and back-up will be present, during and after the event, whether training was sufficient, whether you have the adequate tools, strength , staying power...or what the consequences of your actions will be (sometimes called “reading tomorrow’s headlines”).
Secondary arousal can be a problem. It can be hard to control, so it interferes with performance.
It can be distracting and affect concentration. It can exaggerate the performance inhibiting effects of high stress.
At so many disparate levels of consequences, and during the training practice, whatever it might be, we need to at least visualize that increasing tension that will be part of the event for sure, and work ‘techniques’ and or proven tactics that will break the tension, ‘resetting’ stress build up _
reminding the self to continually ‘assess’ the psychological state and survival mindset that defines physical, mental/emotional/criminal/civil/financial aspects of the impending violence.
Who ever said self defense was easy?
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:37 am
gary6dan »
Certainly there is a "Big" difference in dojo training and "real life threatening" situations. Possibly this is where the problem exist.
For in a dojo setting, although we may "simulate" scenerio training and work "reactionary response" drills etc. the fact still remains that it is still a "safe" environment that has a mutual respect of it's partners and is supervised by an instructor (or third party) who will stop the action if it is getting dangerously out of hand.
Also, we generally know the material that is being worked on, as often it is pre-arranged, other than in free sparring or random attack drills.
So the "chemical" responses that Van often has made reference to, can not be duplicated to the extent that it is "realistic". How much 'adrenaline" will dump in an instant upon a percieved real life threatening situation ?
How will it effect us ? What will determine the response of our actions ? Fight/flight, freeze/engage ?
I tend to conclude in opinion, that we are more likely to survive situations that our actions are more "instantanious" that lack moment of thought of hesitation.
For "reactionary response" as in the hitting of one's brakes or swerving of a automobile, has "no thought" hesitation or time frame of adjusting to the "chemical dump".
Respectfully,
Gary s.
Certainly there is a "Big" difference in dojo training and "real life threatening" situations. Possibly this is where the problem exist.
For in a dojo setting, although we may "simulate" scenerio training and work "reactionary response" drills etc. the fact still remains that it is still a "safe" environment that has a mutual respect of it's partners and is supervised by an instructor (or third party) who will stop the action if it is getting dangerously out of hand.
Also, we generally know the material that is being worked on, as often it is pre-arranged, other than in free sparring or random attack drills.
So the "chemical" responses that Van often has made reference to, can not be duplicated to the extent that it is "realistic". How much 'adrenaline" will dump in an instant upon a percieved real life threatening situation ?
How will it effect us ? What will determine the response of our actions ? Fight/flight, freeze/engage ?
I tend to conclude in opinion, that we are more likely to survive situations that our actions are more "instantanious" that lack moment of thought of hesitation.
For "reactionary response" as in the hitting of one's brakes or swerving of a automobile, has "no thought" hesitation or time frame of adjusting to the "chemical dump".
Respectfully,
Gary s.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:41 am
f.Channell »
Christmas Chaos
Talking to some Police friends of mine at the gym.
What to expect at Christmas time....
Increased domestic violence, perhaps in public
Drunk drivers
Huge increase in suicide
Road rage
So your driving home late from work and a speeding car is aiming right at you. Perhaps you've been chosen to assist a guy in his suicide chosen to look like an accident so his family still collects insurance....
A guy comes crashing into the company Christmas party looking for his wife who is is insanely jealous of, she's having an innocent dance with you...
I'm sure there's more
Have fun and keep both eyes open.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
Christmas Chaos
Talking to some Police friends of mine at the gym.
What to expect at Christmas time....
Increased domestic violence, perhaps in public
Drunk drivers
Huge increase in suicide
Road rage
So your driving home late from work and a speeding car is aiming right at you. Perhaps you've been chosen to assist a guy in his suicide chosen to look like an accident so his family still collects insurance....
A guy comes crashing into the company Christmas party looking for his wife who is is insanely jealous of, she's having an innocent dance with you...
I'm sure there's more
Have fun and keep both eyes open.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 56708
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:44 am
Christmas Chaos
f.Channell »
Talking to some Police friends of mine at the gym.
What to expect at Christmas time....
Increased domestic violence, perhaps in public
Drunk drivers
Huge increase in suicide
Road rage
So your driving home late from work and a speeding car is aiming right at you. Perhaps you've been chosen to assist a guy in his suicide chosen to look like an accident so his family still collects insurance....
A guy comes crashing into the company Christmas party looking for his wife who is insanely jealous of, she's having an innocent dance with you...
I'm sure there's more
Have fun and keep both eyes open.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
http://www.hinghamkarate.com
f.Channell »
Talking to some Police friends of mine at the gym.
What to expect at Christmas time....
Increased domestic violence, perhaps in public
Drunk drivers
Huge increase in suicide
Road rage
So your driving home late from work and a speeding car is aiming right at you. Perhaps you've been chosen to assist a guy in his suicide chosen to look like an accident so his family still collects insurance....
A guy comes crashing into the company Christmas party looking for his wife who is insanely jealous of, she's having an innocent dance with you...
I'm sure there's more
Have fun and keep both eyes open.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
http://www.hinghamkarate.com
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 56708
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:52 pm
Gabe SuarezBeing listed as a suspect will cost you between $25,000 to $100,000. The police report will NOT be re-written.
•As a suspect you are arrested for homicide or attempted homicide.
•You are booked and if you want to go home, you will have to post bail.
•There is usually no bail for murder under certain circumstances.
•Other murder arrests have a $1 million dollar bail - that means that you must come up with $100K and collateral for the rest
•And the god-like attorney that descends from the clouds the next day will not be free either. Minimum defense for murder begins at $50K
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:52 pm
Gabe Suarez
Gabriel Suarez
Don't give sufficient info to qualify as a victim and you automatically become a suspect...with all the courtesies afforded a suspect.
Your attorney PREFERS YOU BEING A SUSPECT SO HE CAN MAKE FAR MORE MONEY DEFENDING YOU than solely sitting in on a secondary interview of a victim shooter.
Why that simplicity is so difficult for some to grasp explains so much about human history.
What I have done in the past, and what I teach my students is this.
At the first phone call, identify yourself as the victim. Say it, "I am the Victim".
At the initial contact with Law Enforcement give a very limited statement, focusing on the actions of the bad guys, reiterating what they did - or tried to do to you.
This is where that "gentleman" persona will pay off dividends. A Raylan Givens will be treated differently than a Dewey Crowe.
If at some point you want a "time out", and that is not a bad idea for true medical reasons as well as to simply catch your breath, collect your thoughts, and make any additional calls, it is a simple matter to ask for medical attention due to head ache, racing heart, etc.
Say something like this -
"Officer. I am glad you are here. Thank God. You saved my life from these guys"
"I am a good guy. I am the victim. I was minding my own business on my way home when those two guys attacked me."
"The one in the blue shirt had a knife. He threw it up there on the roof as he ran away down the alley. There should be some blood on it from my arm when I blocked his attempt to stab me."
"The guy on the gurney was armed with a pistol. He dropped it right there in that pile of ivy when he fell."
"It was so sudden. I was terrified. I am still terrified. I am glad you guys are here. "
There...more micro statements pointing to roles in the event, evidence that can now be recovered, and additional investigative leads to apprehend additional suspects. And then the "time out".
"Officer...I am still a little shaken up. I want to cooperate with you guys, but I have a huge headache right now and my heart beat won't slow down. Do you mind calling paramedics for me...I think I would like a doctor to check me out".
I guarantee that you will not be asked any additional questions that night.
Things are no longer in your control but you have set the investigation on the proper course, and the truth will be determined instead of being overlooked.
Gabriel Suarez
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:11 am
SuarezIn order to have your position as a victim sealed and locked in, you need to give these guys[police] what they want, as much as is in your control. How do you do that?
By telling your side of the event, from your position. What you saw, why it alerted you and caused your reaction, and this last is important, why you couldn't have done anything else. All of these are illustrated in the flowchart we posted earlier.
•You were there on good faith minding your own business.
•The bad guy presented as a bad guy intent on doing harm to you or others.
•It was clear from what you saw and heard that what was going on was to cost lives if something wasn't done.
•Being a man, a father, a person for good, you could not morally run away and leave innocents to their fate...or it was not tactically possible to do so.
•Your only option was to shoot the bad guy.
Same as if you used empty hands to strike instead of shooting.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:13 am
SuarezThe role of the victim - Victims give a statement, an additional follow up statement, and are likely released to go home and sleep in their own bed. Costs? Minimal... Not a bad idea to have a lawyer go with your for a secondary interview.
Van
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:25 am
A great article from Gabe's forum on how we sense danger.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/science ... 2020190204
https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/science ... 2020190204
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