I'm going to have pictures to back this up soon. This is more from the book I'm reading '"The Armored Rose".
Make a fist - as you would to do a straight punch - squeeze as tightly as you can.
Now - go find a woman who has not trained martial arts and have her make a fist - squeezing as tightly as she can. Don't tell her how to do it, just ask her to squeeze as tightly as she can and make a fist.
You will see that angle is not the same.
Women who have trained may be able to make this angle with their non-dominant hand. Your regular punching hand is probably trained to punch like a man.
A way to extend the difference is to have a man grip tightly onto a stick. The stick will be at a 90 degree angle to his forearm.
Have a woman grip tightly to a stick. The stick will be at a 120 degree angle to her forearm.
If you see a woman make a fist this way and you're a guy - you'll say - there no way you can punch this way. The reality is that there's no way a woman can punch the way you punch.
This also has huge rammifications for how hard a woman can hit somthing with this fist and how well women survive conditioning. Making the traditional male seiken fist will result in her not being able to squeeze as tightly with her little and ring fingers - less sqeezing, less muscle recruitment, less protection, more bruises.
If your body senses that your weapon is not strong enough, it will not let you transfer pull power into the technique.
I understand many may be skeptical of what I've said. And I'll try to to take digital pictures and post them as soon as I can.
The fist that works really well for a woman's hand is the shoken -- it takes advantage of our natural wrist angle - funny that -- legend says wing chun was developed by a woman...
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited February 25, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
Moderator: Available
Women and men make different fists
http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/dsfist.html
a picture of my fist - squeezing as hard as I can.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 19, 2002).]
a picture of my fist - squeezing as hard as I can.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 19, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/hgfist.html
This is the fist of a guy in the office who has never done any martial arts, squeezing as hard as he can.
The reason I did it with each of us making as tight a fist as possible is so that our bodies would try to optimize the position to recruit as many muscles as possible.
Notice how much flatter the angle of his knucles are across. open them up in two windows and put them side by side and a take a good look.
I'd do it here but I don't know how it embed images in posts.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 19, 2002).]
This is the fist of a guy in the office who has never done any martial arts, squeezing as hard as he can.
The reason I did it with each of us making as tight a fist as possible is so that our bodies would try to optimize the position to recruit as many muscles as possible.
Notice how much flatter the angle of his knucles are across. open them up in two windows and put them side by side and a take a good look.
I'd do it here but I don't know how it embed images in posts.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 19, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
dmsdc:
Here's a possible explanation; one that I stumbled upon while trying to come up with a "formula" for making a shoken:
If you curl your fingers so that the tip of each curls into the pad where palm meets finger, you get the "male" fist.
In this fist,each fingertip is resting upon a pad of flesh right at the base, at the edge of the palm.
This produces a flat-fronted fist where all four knuckles are at 90 degrees to the wrist.
However, if you curl the fingertips into the CENTER of the palm, the fist is formed as more of an angle, as you describe, and each fingertip rests upon the palm, not a fleshy pad.
This produces a fist which automatically retracts and protects the 3rd and 4th fingers; ideal since they have no support anyway and will be injured in contact.
The force is delivered by the 1st and 2nd knuckles only, as it should be since they have a straight line of support into the forearm.
Pointing the proper fist at a wall is very like aiming a target pistol; the 1st and 2nd knuckles are protruding.
Interesting that when you do this the index middle knuckle is the foremost point!
I think most people who form a fist have never actually hit anything with it.
One shot and they would know better!
I use a 40-lb hanging sandbag as a reality check, and I can confidently drill a shoken into the softer top third of the bag.
I have noticed that some people form the shoken with the index finger protruded as if around an invisible trigger; boy does this ever NOT WORK!
It has to be clinched in tight to the thumb.
"At least for me"!
Here's a possible explanation; one that I stumbled upon while trying to come up with a "formula" for making a shoken:
If you curl your fingers so that the tip of each curls into the pad where palm meets finger, you get the "male" fist.
In this fist,each fingertip is resting upon a pad of flesh right at the base, at the edge of the palm.
This produces a flat-fronted fist where all four knuckles are at 90 degrees to the wrist.
However, if you curl the fingertips into the CENTER of the palm, the fist is formed as more of an angle, as you describe, and each fingertip rests upon the palm, not a fleshy pad.
This produces a fist which automatically retracts and protects the 3rd and 4th fingers; ideal since they have no support anyway and will be injured in contact.
The force is delivered by the 1st and 2nd knuckles only, as it should be since they have a straight line of support into the forearm.
Pointing the proper fist at a wall is very like aiming a target pistol; the 1st and 2nd knuckles are protruding.
Interesting that when you do this the index middle knuckle is the foremost point!
I think most people who form a fist have never actually hit anything with it.
One shot and they would know better!
I use a 40-lb hanging sandbag as a reality check, and I can confidently drill a shoken into the softer top third of the bag.
I have noticed that some people form the shoken with the index finger protruded as if around an invisible trigger; boy does this ever NOT WORK!
It has to be clinched in tight to the thumb.
"At least for me"!
Women and men make different fists
Dana-
So happy you got a copy of Toby's book! Amazing, isn't it?
I usually joke about the fist thing- "My fist is right in between. That's natural. I'm a half-breed: my dad was a man and my mom was a woman."
Rory
So happy you got a copy of Toby's book! Amazing, isn't it?
I usually joke about the fist thing- "My fist is right in between. That's natural. I'm a half-breed: my dad was a man and my mom was a woman."
Rory
Women and men make different fists
Hey Rory -- yes. The book is amazing.
And, it's no joke -- at least not for me.
I've had more than one teacher "correct" my wrist angle without looking at what my knuckles are doing in relation to my arm. Then I go to hit something hard with my "corrected" form and my wrist breaks and folds on the strike and they tell me "oh you need to train more and have a stronger wrist".
Bullfeathers. I have some of the strongest hands and wrists of any woman my size that I've met.
I need to take pictures of the opposite angle but didn't have the time.
The reason I wanted to share this is that women may have to have a more severe angle to get those two knuckles out front. And this makes a huge difference when you're trying to twist that hand over to really drill into someone or a bag. I'm sure that there is wide variation in the world of how different people make their fists. Bodies are very, very different things and no one way is going to work for every person. But I think it's really important to acknowlege that women may tend towards a wrist angle that looks and feels impossible to guys when they try it.
Women may need a little more lattitude to explore just how they need to line things up to deliver more power into their strikes.
And what's even more interesting is that the more I play with exploring just where I'm most lined up and most powerful -- it isn't two knuckles at all that want to strike, it's just the 1st knuckle. Of course that 2nd knuckle is going to also impact eventually on anything softer than a board. But the angle I'm finding works best for me is one that makes the 3rd knuckle of the index finger alone the focus of the strike.
I mean - who came up with the whole you have to hit with 2 knuckles thing? Who made that rule in the first place? We don't really know -- and if it was a man training men.........
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 20, 2002).]
And, it's no joke -- at least not for me.
I've had more than one teacher "correct" my wrist angle without looking at what my knuckles are doing in relation to my arm. Then I go to hit something hard with my "corrected" form and my wrist breaks and folds on the strike and they tell me "oh you need to train more and have a stronger wrist".Bullfeathers. I have some of the strongest hands and wrists of any woman my size that I've met.
I need to take pictures of the opposite angle but didn't have the time.
The reason I wanted to share this is that women may have to have a more severe angle to get those two knuckles out front. And this makes a huge difference when you're trying to twist that hand over to really drill into someone or a bag. I'm sure that there is wide variation in the world of how different people make their fists. Bodies are very, very different things and no one way is going to work for every person. But I think it's really important to acknowlege that women may tend towards a wrist angle that looks and feels impossible to guys when they try it.
Women may need a little more lattitude to explore just how they need to line things up to deliver more power into their strikes.
And what's even more interesting is that the more I play with exploring just where I'm most lined up and most powerful -- it isn't two knuckles at all that want to strike, it's just the 1st knuckle. Of course that 2nd knuckle is going to also impact eventually on anything softer than a board. But the angle I'm finding works best for me is one that makes the 3rd knuckle of the index finger alone the focus of the strike.
I mean - who came up with the whole you have to hit with 2 knuckles thing? Who made that rule in the first place? We don't really know -- and if it was a man training men.........
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 20, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
2 green -
I tried what you explained - and it doesn't work for me. No matter where I put my fingers, when I really crank down on my little and ring finger, they curl down more into the angle of the picture.
I can put my fingers above the fleshy pad on my palm, or in the middle. When I put my fingers at the top of my palm or in the center and don't squeeze I get the "male" fist. But as soon as I grip at all - those last two fingers curl in and down - no matter where they are.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 20, 2002).]
I tried what you explained - and it doesn't work for me. No matter where I put my fingers, when I really crank down on my little and ring finger, they curl down more into the angle of the picture.
I can put my fingers above the fleshy pad on my palm, or in the middle. When I put my fingers at the top of my palm or in the center and don't squeeze I get the "male" fist. But as soon as I grip at all - those last two fingers curl in and down - no matter where they are.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 20, 2002).]
-
Tony-San
Women and men make different fists
I should post a picture of my fist. For some reason, I can position my hand perfectly, so that everything is lined up, but the knuckles of my second digit always protrude out. Those two big knuckles are always the last to make contact.
Women and men make different fists
Tony-san,
please post picts of your fists. Maybe many peopel will. I think it would interesting to see the range of how ppl make fists.
Maybe we could get several pple to do several fists:
seiken, shoken, hirken, bushken (I think there's several interpretations of that one)
sokusen, shuto, nukite, etc.
dana
please post picts of your fists. Maybe many peopel will. I think it would interesting to see the range of how ppl make fists.
Maybe we could get several pple to do several fists:
seiken, shoken, hirken, bushken (I think there's several interpretations of that one)
sokusen, shuto, nukite, etc.
dana
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beckyhaworth
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- Contact:
Women and men make different fists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2Green:
I have noticed that some people form the shoken with the index finger protruded as if around an invisible trigger; boy does this ever NOT WORK!
It has to be clinched in tight to the thumb.
"At least for me"!
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was curious by what you meant by the invisible trigger finger....can you post a picture of it?
Thanks!!
I have noticed that some people form the shoken with the index finger protruded as if around an invisible trigger; boy does this ever NOT WORK!
It has to be clinched in tight to the thumb.
"At least for me"!
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was curious by what you meant by the invisible trigger finger....can you post a picture of it?
Thanks!!
Women and men make different fists
http://members.tripod.com/alandnay/eye_of_the_phoenix.htm
I think this might be a drawing to match 2green's description.
Dana
I think this might be a drawing to match 2green's description.
Dana
Women and men make different fists
http://geocities.com/dmsdc/weaponsfists.html
I drew some lines to represent the line a weapon would extend from the fists.
Thanks Tony!!!!
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 24, 2002).]
I drew some lines to represent the line a weapon would extend from the fists.
Thanks Tony!!!!
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited February 24, 2002).]
-
Tony-San
Women and men make different fists
Dana,
When I make a fist I concentrate on squeezing the first two knuckles firmly then let the last two pull in to line up and square off the fist, essentially making it look like a block. I do not over squeeze (squeeze too hard) as this will pull the knuckles out of alignment leaving the fist contorted. The reason we hit with the index and middle knuckles has to do with the anatomy of the hand. These two knuckles have the bigger bones of the hand behind them for support. Black Belt magazine ran an article several years ago, maybe even decades by now, interveiwing doctors about hand trauma. In something like 98% of hands injured, or broken, while executing a punch, the trauma exsisted at or behind the last two knuckles (the ring and pinky). Squeezing a fist so hard that it misaligns the the hand and knuckles could be one possible cause of the wrist problems you experience. Test my theory by assuming the knuckle push-up position. If you are squeezing your fist too tightly, then the last two knuckles will be slightly raised off the floor. If they are, relax your hand just enough so that they fall into alignment with the others. You will now have a functional fist without any loss of strength. Try this on the makiwara as well, I think you will feel a big difference.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 24, 2002).]
When I make a fist I concentrate on squeezing the first two knuckles firmly then let the last two pull in to line up and square off the fist, essentially making it look like a block. I do not over squeeze (squeeze too hard) as this will pull the knuckles out of alignment leaving the fist contorted. The reason we hit with the index and middle knuckles has to do with the anatomy of the hand. These two knuckles have the bigger bones of the hand behind them for support. Black Belt magazine ran an article several years ago, maybe even decades by now, interveiwing doctors about hand trauma. In something like 98% of hands injured, or broken, while executing a punch, the trauma exsisted at or behind the last two knuckles (the ring and pinky). Squeezing a fist so hard that it misaligns the the hand and knuckles could be one possible cause of the wrist problems you experience. Test my theory by assuming the knuckle push-up position. If you are squeezing your fist too tightly, then the last two knuckles will be slightly raised off the floor. If they are, relax your hand just enough so that they fall into alignment with the others. You will now have a functional fist without any loss of strength. Try this on the makiwara as well, I think you will feel a big difference.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 24, 2002).]
