a question for woman martial artist

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:30 pm

I am in my mid thirties and have been studing martial arts for about 16 years. I recently started dating a woman who has studied martial arts for 4 years and is about the same age I am.
I have been in martial art schools that had all men or almost all men in them with the exception of an aikido school that I spent three years in that had a woman instructor.
Because of that I have very little experience in working out wtih woman and although my intentions are good I wonder if there are better ways to interact with her when we train together.
So far, I have realized that it is important to let her know that I learn from her also and that I do not feel superior to her or anyone else because I have studied longer. Other than that I fell non confident on things like, should we spar, how competive should I be, am I making her feel comfortable or am I making her feel too comfortable and so forth.
I you could be so kind, could yall share what you know about training with men, what you liked what you did not like, and help a fella out who realizes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:04 am

Hello turbotort2000,

Thanks for posting. I have some thoughts - but first I have a couple of questions.

Do you now train in the same school -- i.e. are you her instructor?

Or if you train in different schools is it the same style? Since some styles train differently this may be a place to figure out where you are on different exercises.

Finally, have you had any conversations with your girlfriend about these things yet?

Dana

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:46 am

Hey! thanks for the prompt reply! I have read some of your posts dana and was hoping you would reply because of your experience. To answer your questions in sequential order:

1) We do not train in the same school. She trains at a kickboxing/tae kwon do school and I study japanese jujitsu school called ketsugo jujitsu. I left the school which was in Austin Texas to move in with her in Sacramento California.

2) Her gig is kickboxing and arnis under two diffenent instructors. I studied tae kwon do for 5 years with an emphsis on pka style kickboxing. I do not know anything about arnis.
3) We have talked about some of those things but not the sparring which is fine because I dont want to punch the face that is tenderly kiss. We have talked about us being equal training partners and have talked about the competative aspects of training with her.

uechiwoman · Post by **uechiwoman** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:50 am

turbotort2000,

Dialogue is key. Is she good about speaking up for her training needs on the floor? This will become very important when she works with you. It is great that she has been training for four years so she has some experience working with different partners. But even if she has worked out with many men, you being her boyfriend puts a interesting spin on the dynamic.

I have seen some couples brought closer together by training. They know each other's limits and they can push each other. They talk about the ins and outs of training often. It is something that they share.

I have also seen couples where the physicalness and power differential in sparring is hard for both partners. The guy can be afraid that if he accidently hits his girlfriend too hard in sparring that it will affect their relationship off the floor. Therefore he holds back and the woman can feel that she is not being respected. This can be avoided by doing other exercises first to get a feel for how you train together. I would hold off on sparring for a little bit.

You may want to search the archives of the forum for posts on how women and men can train together. Your question of how couples can better train together is great and I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say!

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:27 pm

"I do not feel superior to her or anyone else because I have
studied longer"

Well, if you've been consistently training and attaining rank
longer than her, your skills ARE superior. That's just
a fact of life. So I would not spend too much time trying
to reassure her of that or compensate for that. That's
the breaks.

Do you think that I'd expect to be able to beat up Cynthia
Rothrock if I only studied two years of karate, just
because I'm a guy? Yeah, okay, I know she's just an actress,
but come on now.

"on things like, should we spar, how competive should I be"
This is what I do: male of female, if it's a junior, I
spar at or slightly above their level. That's what my teachers
have done with me. Or, I work on those techniques that don't
get too much airplay, or I just use my feet. I work on
combinations. If the junior has a particular weakness, I try
to exploit it so that she or he will close it up. Not trying
to hurt or humiliate, but to educate. Again, that's what's
been done with me, so I pass that along. Although, I leave
out the giving of bruised ribs.

"The guy can be afraid that if he accidently hits his girlfriend
too hard in sparring that it will affect their relationship off
the floor. Therefore he holds back and the woman can feel that
she is not being respected. "
Call me mean, but you have to learn to seperate the mat from the
mattress. Just remember which one is more important to your
overall quality of life. If the mat affects the mattress too
much, then stop working out with each other on the mat. It ain't
worth it.

You will drive yourself crazy trying to balance that dynamic
with regards to her feelings. Just show her the same respect
you'd show anybody of less experience and I think that you
two will be fine. And with regards to hitting in the face:
does she mind hitting you in the face? Why don't you guys
invest in some helmets if the contact is going to be that
heavy? Why does the contact HAVE to be that heavy?

beckyhaworth · Post by **beckyhaworth** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:14 pm

I agree with Uechiwoman....talk!!

I have had experience with both sides of the coin....I was married to a non-marital artist who began training and he could not learn from me at all.

Then again, I am now dating a martial artist who learns from me and I learn from him. You have to keep the lines of communication open.

I think if you each take some interest in each others training needs and styles then things will work out just fine. But I would not get into telling each other that "my instructor told me to do it this way" discussion.

Becky

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

...you have to learn to seperate the mat from the mattress. Just remember which one is more important to your overall quality of life. If the mat affects the mattress too much, then stop working out with each other on the mat. It ain't worth it.

Many (most) couples find this to be true. To date, the number of couples who joined our school together who still train at our school together --- Zero.

And there are exceptions. Long-term husband/wife high ranking students -- The Durkins, the Sumpters, the Carrias, and Ahti K...shoot I forget his last name and his wife's name.

Anyway -- what is important to understand is what each of you mean when you say "we're going to go light". What does LIGHT mean to you and what does it mean to her?

Also - when men mix it up they like to push it to the edge but if things go to the next level - both parties will sort of tacitly go along with it that OK, now we're going medium. Sometimes this doesn't happen the same way for women.

Women will push the edge of "Light" contact and be totally surprized when a male partner takes it from light to medium without talking about it. The guy's response in this scenario is usually to say - well, you were picking up the pace, I was just keeping up.
The different perceptions are:

woman - we are pushing the edge of light contact

man - we've stepped it up a level so now we're going medium.

So if things get pushed up a little harder, the guy might move into the next step - heavy contact, and the woman, in her mind, is still pushing the edge of light contact. Then he lets off a good shot and she's offended......

The reason I wrote that all out is to show how things can spiral if you don't talk about what each level means to each of you. Set boundries before you start. Understand that some of the rules of how guys interact don't work the same when interacting with a woman.

And as Cecil so aptly put it above - if it looks like the you are sacrificing your relationship - it might be time to step off the mat.

however -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, if you've been consistently training and attaining rank
longer than her, your skills ARE superior. That's just a fact of life. So I would not spend too much time trying to reassure her of that or compensate for that. That's the breaks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would spend time explaining that your skills will be greater than hers in your art simply due to the fact that you've got more hours on floor doing those things. Conversely I would expect that her skills in her art are superior to your skills in her art. So Cecil - his girlfriend may find herself reassuring tbt2K about his arnis skills.

Have you guys had any face contact yet? If yes, how did it go?

Dana

uechiwoman · Post by **uechiwoman** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:35 pm

I think the longer you have been training the easier it is to separate "the mat from the mattress." I can be hit by a man without taking it as a personal affront to my womanhood. I now view it as training and I appreciate my partner for showing me a hole in my defense. Did I start out that way? No. It took experience on the floor watching the interactions of my seniors and realizing that I was rarely truly hurt from the hit.

On a fun note,
I knew one couple that after sparring class would rush off, all flushed and excited. Sparring for them was definately a sexual experience. They did not last long in the school but I think they sure had fun while it lasted.

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:13 pm

"On a fun note,
I knew one couple that after sparring class would rush off, all flushed and excited. Sparring for them was definately a sexual experience. They did not last long in the school but I think they sure had fun while it lasted."

LOL!! Freakaaay.

tunetigress · Post by **tunetigress** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:41 pm

Well for all you 'guys' out there who want to figure out how 'your woman' would feel about training with you, get a grip! If she even wanted to train with you, you would know that by now by talking to her about her personal goals for her training, and not be so concerned about yourselves and how to handle your egos when 'up against' her. I suggest that the advice given about the separation of mat and mattress be taken by you fellas involved with women who train! A marriage (or committed relationship of any kind) is not a matter of competition, nor can it survive when it is viewed as such by one or both of the partners involved. Respectfully, _(_)_ Tunetigress

------------------

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:24 am

Ok let me see if I can organize the information presented here. Starting with uchiwoman, you think that verbal communication is the key to success and to hold off on the sparring in the early stages. The biggest difficulty with verbal exchanges is that when I train with other guys there is very little talking going on. Most of the communication is nonverbal. If I were training with you what nonverbal cues do you tend to give to signal differnet emotions and is there any generalization that can help me and other guys acknowlege the womans emotions. Just to head off the question before you return it, most guys, myself included are realivly stoic in our training because of a narrow emotional range and redundancy of training.

Moving to beckyhaworth, my biggest question was it like to be married to a guy just starting martial arts? Why was is he could not learn from you and is that experience similar to other men you have trained with?
I follow you on the opened minded theory, and can tell you that people who do what their instructor says with out figuring out eventually figuring out why are working way to hard for whatever results they want.

In response to tunetigress thoughts I have to confess I do not know what her martial arts goals are. I am not even sure if she has clear cut goals. But I will get right on that. Kinda silly for me to overlook that since I started making goals from almost the first week. We do train together about once or twice a week when our schedules permit though.

Lastly, dmsdc. I think I understand your important message. If there is contact sparring realize that men are much more apt to push the intensity up quicker than woman. I have only sparred with maybe two or three woman in the mid-80'2 and am going to take what you said on faith since I lack experience. Great tip though I definetly do not want to find that one out through experience. And yes, or course, I do want to learn her stick fighting drills.

Cecil, what happened to give you such a draw-a-line-in -the-sand attitude? Is it genreal philophy or personal refection based on what you have seen or personal experience? All training regiments have some degree of flexablilty in them why can't this have it. Help me understand how you came to your conclusions and why you don't differentuate a girlfriend from another type of traing partner.

Really though I am getting great feedback from everyone. I need to know what I misunderstood in your sections which is why I tried to paraphraze them. Also if you post again help me understand where you are coming from by telling me and the other members about your martial arts background.

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 4:09 pm

"Help me understand how you came to your conclusions and why you don't differentuate a girlfriend from another type of traing partner."

Because you are not being fair to the person by taking it too easy or being too rough on them. After having to train my son in a class with other children, I can see how it is better to be impartial and treat EVERYONE fairly. I don't beat on kids once I put on sparring gear, so why should he be any different? He's still just a boy, be he mine or not. If you are doing your best by everybody, you have less of a chance of being unfair to one body. He can get more time with me at home with karate if he wants, but I spend most of the time reminding him to pick up his toys, do his homework, etc., that I forget about being a live-in Mr. Miyagi.

I have worked out with my wife only a couple of times. She's not interested, really. She did some stretching a couple of times and did some stance work, a couple of kicks and a few blocks. I didn't push sparring. Why? Because I would not have pushed sparring with ANYBODY after only two lessons. Male or female. She was just trying it out, so why bother? I don't think my attitude will be different once I get the black belt either.

As much as we like karate, the relationships with our SO's are more important. And, a good way, I think, to keep things in perspective should family members decide to train is to try to be as fair as possible.

uechiwoman · Post by **uechiwoman** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:50 am

Turbotort2000 asked,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

If I were training with you what nonverbal cues do you tend to give to signal differnet emotions and is there any generalization that can help me and other guys acknowlege the womans emotions.

I am not sure about my current nonverbal cues. I will ask my sparring partners what they notice when they spar with me. Right now I love sparring and I usually come out smiling.

While coming up in the ranks I remember experiencing the following emotions with the following reactions.

overwhelmed: turning my head away and lossing eye contact

defensive/afraid of getting hit: backing too far away, not engaging, holding arms close to body

angry that you are hitting too hard: coming in much stronger all of a sudden

I remember being confused as to why when I landed softly a beautiful punch to your ribs so as not to hurt you that you hit me anyway. I found that my male sparring partners would not acknowledge what they could not feel. When training with other women the contact level did not have to as high for the technique to be acknowledged. I train continuous sparring with breaks after what both partners agree to be stopping techiniques, ie both partners agree that if the technique had landed with full power that the person being hit would not be able to continue.

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:46 am

First off --to Uechiwoman and the others thanks for going the extra mile on my questions. Uechiwoman I think I understand what you are saying. That a verbal agreement before the sparring session starts is a good idea. I figure that there must be a community in nonverbal ques by men and woman and that I may on a subconcsious level achknowlege them but not neccessary respond to them. I have not sparred with a woman since 1987-or maybe 88 and even than not often. With my guy sparring partners the rule of thumb is that the if their is a skill difference the weaker partner picks the pace and if you land a shot and the partner doubles over, goes to a knee grabs the ropes, taps, or falls down you stop. Verbal warnings are too difficult because of the mouth pieces. Also any accidental shots to the groin stops action. All the sparring I have done since the early 90's, which hasn't been much in the last 5 years, has been pka style which means boxing gloves, karate foot gloves, full head contact with hands or feet but as a rule we pull the leg kicks because it hurts a lot and recovery time is long between those bruises. The system is pretty much the same even when I meet knew sparring partners. It is all non verbal. I am telling you this because so you can see where I came from--and than I am hoping to pick up from yall--and so far I am learning stuff--how the enviroment may be different in other schools and how yall communitcate in that envirorment.

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:20 am

In sparring or kumite, whether I'm paired with another guy or a girl, I just try to match my level to theirs as a guide.
If they're better, I have to dig deeper.
If I'm better, it's my responsibility to "lead" so as to give them a fair "representative" opponent.
This is not patronizing, as I don't distinguish opponents (anymore!) by gender.
You had to be there as the willowy 15-year-old girl suddenly whacked gracious-old-me in the head with a whistling high roundhouse!
After the stars (mine!) cleared I realized that yes, I was sparrin'!