Health Supplements

[RACastanet]

To all:
I've been consuming 1000mg/day of CosaminDS for close to two months now (supplied by that noted 'candyman' Glasheen in the giant 'Tub o' Horsepills' (TM) size) and I have experienced a subtle but very noticable improvement in my knees.

About a year ago I had to cut back on my fat burning aerobic schedule (with a resultant addition of over ten pounds of non-lean (oh-oh, another TM) body mass) as my knees were getting sore and not recovering between sessions. This week I was able to get in three karate workouts and over two hours of aerobics without much discomfort. Something good is happenning.

I'd tried this stuff in the past but experienced a clogging of the outbound plumbing and quit after a week. Twice. This time I gave my body a chance to adjust and after two weeks the difficulty subsided. Unfortunately my lumbar region has not as yet benefitted from the product.

In any event, via chi flow correction or whatever, the product is working and gets my stamp of approval.

Rich

[Scott Danziger]

Rich,

I myself have been taking 1,000mg of Glucosamine for 2 months now. As with you, I was plugged for about 2-3 weeks but my body eventually adjusted. Matter of fact, I get less stomach problems (used to get a lot.) Anyway, I am not sure yet if it has been helping my shoulder. I've been icing it down after every workout as per my orthopedic's advice and my back still gets flaky but nothing too bad. But then again, I stretch it every day. I've been lifting equipment at work this week and my back held out save for a bit of a twinge on Tuesday. I put ice on it immeediatly. Now, I can't tell if I'm "holding my own" due to the Glucosamine, the ice, or the stretching. I will continue with the glucosamine and see what happens. This time I will get the one with the chondroitin and see if that helps.

I did discover one important thing in all this... Aging *****! I want a do-over.

Scott

[gmattson]

Hey you guys. . . stop - stop -stop taking those pills! Better you suffer with your knee problems and aches and pains until we have absolute proof that the results you are experiencing is not "in your head"!!!

So far all our tests show that people like you would be far better off with new titanium joints, which have been tested, approved and patented for your safe use. Please. . . stop messing around with those placebos!


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GEM

[RACastanet]

Mattson sensei: Heheheheheheh. I believe their is chi in those capsules. Why else would they be so large? Besides, anything good enough for Glasheen is good enough for me.

Scott: the CosaminDS brand does contain chondroitin (even more chi). Thanks for the info on the side effect. A few were incredulous at my problem.

Rich

[Scott Danziger]

I'm gonna give it another try. I picked up "Pain Free" which is made by Schiff, the same company that makes the Glucosimine I was taking. Instead of 1000mg of glucosimine, this has 500mg glucosimine and 400mg chondroitin.

Sensei, I would love a titanium lower back and left shoulder but... my insurance company bites.

I used to get a cold about every 6 months. When I saw your post around a year ago about Echinacea, I picked up a bottle (Nature's Herb). I haven't had a cold since last February (when I started taking it) and it wasn't as bad as usual. I took it when I felt I "may" come down with something. Then I started taking it every day for the last 6 months. I watch people around me get sick but so far (knocking wood) I've been good to go. Talk about your chi. If thats in my head I'm fine with it. I hate getting sick.

Scott

[gmattson]

Its all in your head Scott.

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GEM

[gmattson]

J.D.:

I warned them, but they are a pig headed group! Please forward the data base of surgeons and Titaniam joint salesman in their area.

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GEM

[moulton]

George,

Can you develop Chi in a Titanium joint?

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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>

[RACastanet]

Hmmm.....Titanium is very conductive. Chi flow could exceed the limits of the body around it. As an electrical engineer, licensed and certified, I would recommend a 15 amp circuit breaker be installed with every titanium joint to prevent chi overload.

Rich

[Susie Harrison]

To all:

I am a registered and licensed dietitian, and have a special interest in dietary supplements. Concerning the use of chondroitin and glucosamine for the relief of joint pain: These products are touted as the newest miracle "cure" for arthritis. They may not truly be a "cure", but in many well-done scientific studies, both have been found to help relieve the pain of arthritis in many people, and without the serious side effects of aspirin, ibuprofen and prescription drugs.

A little background information: When the cartilage that cushions the joints in the hands, hips, knees or back breaks down faster than the body can replace it, you've got osteoarthritis. Without this protective cushioning, bone rubs against bone and you feel pain, tenderness, swelling and stiffness. Glucosamine and chondroitin have been found to stimulate cartilage cells to form new cartilage, at least in test tubes. Human studies have yet to confirm this. However, several well-designed scientific studies have shown that many taking these supplements report significant relief from pain. Not everyone with arthritis will benefit from these supplements, and of course, joint pain unrelated to arthritis will probably not be affected. Many rheumatologists are suggesting that their patients give it a try. Marc C. Hochberg, M.D. of the Univ. of Maryland School of Medicine, a renown arthritis expert, suggests that his patients try 500 mg of glucosamine three times a day for a month. If there's no relief after 4 weeks (and 20-50% of people will get none), he recommends that his patients stop taking them.

[Bill Glasheen]

Uh oh, J.D., a real dietician. Someone who is actually trained in the subject rather than having a pompous degree and a sense of humor. Dare you defer???

For the life of me, J.D., I can't figure out how you are missing the references in the literature. Every time I check Medline, I find another (randomized controlled trial) study supporting the efficacy of the product.Most are not done in the United States, but there's a damned good reason for that - the drug companies can't make money off it so they won't put money into it. All the clinical studies that I found are 12 week studies though. We do not know what the long term consequences are yet.

Why do you think that 12 weeks is not enough time to see clinical changes in the structure of the cartilage matrix?

In the mean time, it works for me. If it means just a few more years not wearing those stinky neoprene knee wraps, I'll take it. F*** aging - I'm in denial!

[Susie Harrison]

I have to say this in defense of JD - the web site he mentioned in his post (http://www.quackwatch.com)is a good one for reputable information concerning health products. Granted, their article on glucosamine is a couple of years old, but in general, the information they put out is good. As a professional, I will often refer to the site as a source of information.

[Bill Glasheen]

I agree, Susie. I was a bit harsh. The site is very well done - especially considering all the other trash that is out on the internet. They actually had references in their posts, and dated their articles.

It's really difficult to keep sites like these up to date.

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 01-18-99).]

[Bill Glasheen]

I am not senile, and quit rearranging the furniture!

[Lori]

Now, now children,

First of all - WELCOME Susie! Nice to have another woman join us in the midst of these testosterone laden forums...

Now, as to supplements - I know I am opening myself up to serious rebuke from our beloved Doctor X, but I want to respond to the above posts on echinacea from a homeopathic [GASP! You are really in for it! - J.D.'s Ed.] standpoint.

I've been studying homeopathy for about 6 years now - and have been using the remedies in the dojo for injuries (even Tony may be a believer after a little incident last Saturday involving a bat and his foot...) and also with great success with family - I know that homeopathy has saved me hundreds of dollars in medical bills - and - lest you think I am a complete skeptic as to "conventional" medicine (although I am close!) I do temper my reliance on "alternative" medicine with visits to a "regular" doctor or specialist when needed as guided by common sense - and Red Cross training as a first responder and certified instructor in most of the Red Cross courses on community first aid and safety. So don't lump me into the "Lotus-eaters" category just yet!

First off - please note that homeopathy is a 200 year old science - pioneered in large part by Dr. Samuel Hahneman who was intrigued by the fact that quinine (a poison) when administered in small doses to a sick person (with malaria) would have a curative effect - while larger doses to a well person would have a harmful effect. He surmised, (and subsequently demonstrated with hundreds of provings - involving double blind studies) that minute doses of other substances, often toxic ones, would have similar results. For example, a substance that can cause skin irritation such as poison ivy - when administered in minute doses, often helps alleviate similar skin problems. Similarly, Apis mellifica, derived from bees, works very well on bee stings and other insect bites that produce angry welts - it has even been used successfully by persons with severe allergies to bee stings - no epinephrine needed! But LEARN about it before you try it!

OK - enough about that - I've only scratched the surface with classes and seminars (and lots of reading and study) for the last six years - and I am still a beginner! Homeopathy is very involved - that is why brief references in articles by those who have not spent any length of time studying the intricacies of the science can not be taken as gospel. Kind of like a non-martial artist watching a single tape of a sanchin and trying to explain it with any understanding at all to another non-martial artist.

That being said I also wish to say that homeopathy is NOT herbs! Although some remedies are derived from herbs, the method is completely different - small, potentized doses in homeopathy are used to treat symptoms that larger doses would cause. This is where my main point comes in... (Finally! I hear your editor now J.D.-san)

When using things like Echinacea and Goldenseal for colds and flus - you must use caution. Aside from side effects - (yes, all herbs have side effects - homeopathy does not - too lengthy to go into here) just consider the quinine example above... minute doses help a sick person, but larger doses can hurt a well person. Taking echinacea when a cold is coming on - or when already sick, can be very effective, but when taken over long periods of time when well, your body will build up a tolerance to it and you may eventually produce the very symptoms you are seeking to avoid! If anyone is interested, I can point you in the direction of resources that show studies to this effect. There are many homeopathy sites on the web as well. Similar results have been shown with those "memory enhancing" herbs and also "stress reducing" herbal remedies. When taken as a preventative, over extended periods of time, you may find that you will pay a price eventually.

I am NOT a doctor, nor do I play one on tv, but I have learned the above from reputable homeopathic practitioners, many of them with medical degrees as well as internationally recognized homeopathic certifications. (Homeopathy is very well accepted in Europe and other countries...draw your own conclusions on that one!)

So, above all use common sense. Become an educated consumer - It's YOUR body! Don't buy the latest "herb du jour" without investigating potential side effects thoroughly. Get a primer on alternative medicine and learn a little before you condemn. Don't follow a fad or a single study - results, like statistics can be presented so as to skew the apparent implications according to the wishes of the presenter.

Just like getting a second opinion in conventional medicine, you should do the same with alternative treatments by researching and considering different views. Conventional doctors are not God (though some think they are)(but none on these forums of course!) and you do not have to take their statements as gospel. They make guesses just like we do - "informed opinions" - inform yourself before making judgments or accepting invasive treatment.

Don't accept blindly opinions on alternative treatments. Learn about them yourself, question, and experiment - but CAREFULLY!



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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu