Thrust Obsession

Uechij · Post by **Uechij** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:37 am

Originally posted by Shaolin:
Quote: "Or it may miss, in which case one will hit air. This is why we train full power, full extension and use the elasticity of the muscles and ligaments to absorb the energy, which aids in retraction. Using opposing muscle tension to prevent the punch from hyper-extending will only inhibit the free release of energy in the punch."

Actually, you are correct. In a fight you must be prepared for a miss, but that quote was refering the outcome of landing the technique, not missing. Also we do not teach to fully extend in Sanchin kata, which was really what most of Uglyelks post was refering to. Ligiments, tendons, muscles, etc., do not remain youthfully elastic for your entire life no matter how much you train to keep them that way. Once ligiments are damaged, they rarely heal completely. Repeated pulling of techniques over a long period of time will cause damage to the joints for some, but not all. Opposing contractions can be very strong and damaging. Muscle tension in a joint will inhibit much more then the free release of energy as any experienced martial artist or athlete will tell you.

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Uechij:

Actually, you are correct. In a fight you must be prepared for a miss, but that quote was refering the outcome of landing the technique, not missing. Also we do not teach to fully extend in Sanchin kata, which was really what most of Uglyelks post was refering to. Ligiments, tendons, muscles, etc., do not remain youthfully elastic for your entire life no matter how much you train to keep them that way. Once ligiments are damaged, they rarely heal completely. Repeated pulling of techniques over a long period of time will cause damage to the joints for some, but not all. Opposing contractions can be very strong and damaging. Muscle tension in a joint will inhibit much more then the free release of energy as any experienced martial artist or athlete will tell you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean that there were no other consequences to having muscle tension, simply that it's better not to use it in one's punch. The hyper-extension is caused by prolonged contraction of the triceps past the useful duration of the punch, which forces the joint to hyper-extend. If the muscles are 'turned off' when the arm is at max speed the arm/fist is free to fully extend from the MOMENTUM of the punch, this will cause max extension and speed but prevent hyper-extension. A relaxed punch will always fully extend depending on how much power is used.

The energy that is absorbed by the ligaments, tendons etc. in training our punches (Chasing Fists or Chain Punching) has never had any ill effects on the older members of our clan.

Jim

------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 24, 2002).]

Uechij · Post by **Uechij** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:36 am

Shaolin,

Was wondering, if you don't mind, explaining your "chasing fist" technique in detail. I've seen you mention this several times before as well as seen it demonstrated (I think) by Mr. Evan Pantazi in a short video clip posted on another thread. I would be interested in learning more about it, since our systems are closly related. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 12:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Uechij:
Shaolin,

Was wondering, if you don't mind, explaining your "chasing fist" technique in detail. I've seen you mention this several times before as well as seen it demonstrated (I think) by Mr. Evan Pantazi in a short video clip posted on another thread. I would be interested in learning more about it, since our systems are closly related. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure no problem. What in particular would you like to know?

Chasing Fists or Chain Punching is the first exercise taught to students when they start training in Wing Chun. The purpose of the exercise has multiple levels, for example it teaches the correct development of the punch with proper energy, as well as some key Wing Chun concepts, such as occupying the Centerline, hand replacement, hand unity, structural efficiency, and also teaches the student how to flow along the Centerline, which is used later in other techniques.

On a more basic functional level Chasing Fists is a tactic or finishing technique. Chasing fists places both fists on the Centerline as close to the opponent as possible to minimize time-to-target. This also allows for a high number of strikes per second (>5), which in addition to being good for doing damage also help us face. Facing is a big part of Wing Chun; it’s how we control or steal the balance of the enemy and facing his Centerline is a critical part of this process. As in the clip of the grappler trying to take down the Wing Chun man – he must face the Centerline, which is also the center of gravity and issue energy through the use of punches (in this case), in essence filling the Center of gravity so that his opponent cannot get control of him. An example of this: If you push someone standing in front of you on the left side of his chest he will not be pushed away, only turned slightly, whereas if you push him in the Center of his chest he will be pushed away easily. Chasing Fists allows him to do this, in a sense pushing him away by attacking his Center, off balancing him while at the same time delivering damaging blows to him and hopefully incapacitating him.

Here's a gif showing them in more detail (not from my clan):

If you like I can post info on how to do the exercise.

Jim

------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 24, 2002).]

david · Post by **david** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 12:36 pm

Coool. How you got that picture to move.

david

candan · Post by **candan** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 12:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dmsdc:

I don't think I understand how the shoulders can keep an elbow from popping if that elbow is turned all the way out. I just tried what you're talking about. Nakamatsu's methods are not far from what you train with Van. And no matter how hard I pull down on my lats, obliques, and abs & traps on a strike - they don't affect my final elbow position.

My understanding of a sanchin arm thrust is that your arms comes all the way back through sanchin before you rotate anything. And at that point - the only things that should be rotating are things below the elbow. Meaning that the elbow maintains that same position relative to the ground during the entire strike.
Dana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Past injuries to my right arm and shoulder (soft tissue including nerve damage) forced me to train with great care. Striking a heavy bag with full power aggrevates the condition. On a positive note however, I am able to deliver 100% sanchin arm thrust with the shoulders dropped down (not forced or pulled down) If the shoulder remains down the elbow can not hyperextend nor is there any strain sent to the shoulder. Some key points I was taught in order to prevent soft tissue damage or aggrevating existing conditions are:

Visualize the arm being an arrow shaft and the hand the arrow head. The hip, back and shoulder make up the bow as together they produce a slight curve. (guess which Canadian master gave this tid bit?)

Strike slightly downward and to the center

Roll the shoulder forward and down WITHOUT tension

Accellerate the thrust and recoil after "impact" (imagine the recoil of a tank when discharging a shell)

Force the elbow to the ground during the release by visualizing its point is riding on a rail

Visualize the energy or force continuing at the moment of "impact" out of the finger tips like water leaving the end of a hose

Yes , much is visualization and may seem far out but simply it works for myself and some of my fellow students. Using chest protectors I recently put the thrust to the test and yep, it hits hard (I think the problem with heavy bags are they are rooted to the ceiling

)
Posted and there it was...the moving gif. is addictive to watch, I see some Seisan resemblance

[This message has been edited by candan (edited February 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by candan (edited February 24, 2002).]

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:48 pm

uglyelk said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Elbows down on sanchin thrusts, what about,shoken fist, hiraken strikes,seiken strikes doesn't work here.

Uglyelk - I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above. Elbow down works for every strike. Every strike should (in my understanding) have your arm pass through sanchin (on the way out) before it is released. And that's because when you're mixing it up at high speeds you fire from sanchin position. Or as David Elkins is fond of saying "There are no retractions in a real fight".

What your hand is doing (nukite, shoken, hiraken, seiken) makes no difference to your striking form. Even for elbow strikes - but that one is my opinion. Some of my teachers feel that the elbow stiking forms are different than the hand striking forms.

<hr>
Candan said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If the shoulder remains down the elbow can not hyperextend nor is there any strain sent to the shoulder....Force the elbow to the ground during the release by visualizing its point is riding on a rail.

Candan - I can see how the shoulder down can help towards not hyperextending the elbow - but if you're really blasting away I think the second part of your above quote is what's actually keeping your elbow in proper position.

And finally you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

often the elbow strike is delivered totally seperate from the foward momentum and almost all the energy is directed into the floor, many are impressed but this actually only attacks the floor boards.

.

I missed this before, but WELL SAID!!!
Let us spare the floorboards and attack people!!! (in the direction we're striking - hopefully they aren't lying on the floor).

Dana

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by david:
Coool. How you got that picture to move.

david<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Through a couple of back-fist in and we have the Calf. whirlwind.

candan · Post by **candan** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:09 pm

A drill that demonstrates the importance of proper joint positioning (elbow & shoulder)is to push on a heavy object such as moving a piano without leaning forward or pressing your body against it, note the position of your elbows/shoulders when you find the most effective pushing position. Also worth noting the hieght of your hand placement..likely is the area you strike in Sanchin arm thrust.
Dana-I think that you may be correct on the down elbow position being a big contributor in preventing hyperextension
Leo

Uechij · Post by **Uechij** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:22 pm

Orginally posted by Shaolin:

Quote:"If you like I can post info on how to do the exercise."

I would like!

[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 24, 2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:25 am

Uechij, thanks for the response.(I deleted the post as it was disjointed and rambled)But thank you for answering my questions. you have given me much to ponder and work on.(Sorry typo on arm thrust,palm is Not visable, palm is down just not 100% level)

Danna, I can see where you have trouble understanding me. Forgive me but your post
about elbows down had me totaly confused. I thought you were talking about elbows down as the sanchin thrust landed.

When we talk of sanchin thrusts I think of a fluid motion,so the refernce to a static point in the motion just kind of sailed over my head. Sorry to create the confusion,I think I'm on the same page now.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:47 am

Quote:"If you like I can post info on how to do the exercise."

Id be very interested also

keep it coming very informative thanks

Stryke

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Uechij:
Orginally posted by Shaolin:

Quote:"If you like I can post info on how to do the exercise."

I would like!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay here goes:

First get in a Wing Chun, Sanchin or other horse. The Wing Chun horse is similar to the Sanchin but a little different I think – you tell me. To do a Wing Chun horse stand with both feet together - bend at the knees, dropping a few inches, then open into a wide V by moving the toes as far apart as is comfortable by pivoting on the heels. Now to the reverse and move the heels apart by pivoting on the balls of your feet. You should now have the feet about shoulder width apart with toes pointed in. Lastly tuck your butt in by tightening your glutes...now you should be in some variation of a Yee Jee Kim young Ma...’goat grabbing horse stance’.

Now shake out all the tension in your upper body and relax you should be like a rag doll - no dead energy. Once relaxed proceed.

Start the punch. Slowly at first more or less like in the gif, use it for reference. Place both fists on the Centerline one about a fist away from your chest the other extended out on the Centerline. If you’re not sure what or where the Centerline is then imagine you have a laser pointer mounted on your solar plexus shooting straight out in front of you. As you look down you see a straight line that points wherever you face. Now imagine you are fighting. Wherever your opponent moves you must keep the laser dot aimed at the Center of his body e.g. his solar plexus – this is your weapon. But to do this you must face him. This is the line that the continuous punches will help you control through attack.

When doing Chasing Fists it's important that the punches stay on the same vertical line (imagine the laser): The Centerline, and the punch going out rises slightly and always goes out over the one returning...it is said that the fist returning 'drops' to allow room for the outgoing; this is consistent with the idea of relaxing the arms, which is critical to getting this punch right. The metaphor used for the punch in Wing Chun is that it should be like A rock and a string the arm is the string and should be free of tension; the rock is the fist and should be hard as a rock (please give some thought to this). Your punches should be getting full extension if your are doing it right. Also try to keep the elbows in and under the punch as much as possible. The striking area of the fist is the bottom three knuckles with the smallest one leading, the wrist is tilted (or snapped) up and locked on impact if you’re good. Note that when the fist returns to the starting point that the fist can/should drop as well. This is hard to explain but if you can tilt the fist down on the way back then the punch going out will have more room and the two hands in the mid-point can then be closer together; this is important. Also by letting the fist drop on the return one can use the fist for clearing in sparring or fighting. Now try doing the punch like in the gif.

After some practice (you should do at least 1000 punches first to get the feel); have someone stand in front of you and attack him with Chasing Fists (you need not do this at full speed), he should try to ‘block’ the first punch that comes in. When he does this see what happens. If you do try this I would be interested in knowing what your natural reaction was.

If anyone needs more info feel free to ask.

Jim

------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 25, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:28 pm

Interesting posts. I'd like to add a little to the commentary.

Just as some new amplifiers have short circuit and open circuit protection, so too does our body, to some extent. For example, no response at all would likely cause our elbows to constantly hyperextend when doing sanchin thrusts, even with perfectly good form. This happens to beginners all the time. So what changes? It's the development of the stretch reflex in the antagonistic muscles. When the biceps become properly toned and the neuromuscular reflex is enhanced, the biceps will automatically contract just when the arm is about to extend too far. This reflex is actually proportional to the speed of lengthening of the muscle, meaning that faster thrusts will result in a better stretch reflex response. This is a fast, spinal reflex, which means one really doesn't (and shouldn't) think about it at all. One way to see this in action is to do an all out thrust, relax the arm (the biceps will be involuntarily contracted), and note that you have a few extra degrees of extension of the arm left.

******* That being said ************

I can remember some wonderful seminars taught by Sensei Malone at camp. I say wonderful because I never volunteered...

Jimmy always talked about the concept of "time on contact" to make any pressure point or reflex point strikes work. Most of us have heard the concept of cutting a piece of wood with an ax. Basically the concept is that a thrust that hits a person is actually two phase: 1) extending to target with high speed and no load, and 2) penetrating target with little speed and high load. It's kind of like driving down a hill at high speed, suddenly going straight up, and gunning the car in first gear until the car can't go anymore. No matter how fancy your strike, no matter which master taught it to you, you cannot reproduce the real thing without hitting something. All you can do is reproduce the first phase in kata. And with no place to release all that energy derived from the speed of extension, where do you think the energy goes? Note: I think we already discounted the concept of chi projection in open air at camp.

There was an analogy of a pitcher throwing above. At least with the pitcher, he's able to transfer his energy to the small ball. And even then, sometimes they end up with shoulder and elbow injuries because the ball really doesn't present that much of a load.

One final note... I've had a number of long conversations with orthopedists and physical therapists about shoulders and shoulder injuries. To some extent, age brings on some of these problems. Proper training inside and outside the dojo helps, as does proper warming up. It's always a good idea to start supplementing with glucosamine/chondroitin starting around age 40 to keep all the joints happy - particularly the knees. Eating a diet low in animal fats and high in fish fats (love that sashimi!!) also helps.

But one can damage the shoulder with either no load or high load movements - particularly if form is bad. The shoulder is THE most complex joint in the body; if something can go wrong, it will. The most important thing to remember when hitting something is to keep it locked down so the joint doesn't absorb impact any more than it has to. But I'm a bit leary of 100%, whole-body power motions that don't contact anything but air. Be careful!

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:46 pm

david wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Coool. How you got that picture to move.

Here's how he did it, david. Just replace the fancy brackets with square brackets, and the statement executes.

{IMG}http://www.dallaswingtsun.com/punch.gif{/IMG}

Obviously you need to have the original image available on the web to make this work. He's also taking advantage of a technique we imaging people call "cineloop." In other words, any repeating pattern can be made to go on forever if you display a whole cycle and then start it back at the beginning upon completion of the cycle. I used to do this with echo images of the heart so that a cardiologist could look at the heart wall in motion (repeatedly) to diagnose pathology. In the case of the Wing Chun example, I count about 4 (maybe 5) total images, made to repeat endlessly. In the end, it's all in the image sampling and storage software. Somebody obviously has a nice setup.

And yes, we could do this with our own seisan boshiken strikes. Anyone with the right equipment out there??? (I don't work in the echo imaging lab any more).

- Bill