Mike:
Thanks for the comments and your heartfelt and honest opinions on rank. Clearly rank is important to you and I am certain there are people who share your views.
I certainly could not say what Kanbun Uechi received, or did not receive, but he was trained by a Chinese person.
The Chinese systems did not have formal ranking systems as we know it (and many still do not). They have relationships most often expressed in family terms and they refer to the generation they are of the style and how long they have trained.
Reading the histories of many Chinese masters there is no reference to their rank only an acknowledgement of the martial arts community of their knowledge and/or fighting skills.
The Dan system is very recent (in martial arts time) and is fully Japanese. It did not exist in Karate until the Okinawans wanted to teach in Japan.
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5282
There was no ranking system in Karate until then. Karate hit Japan about 1922.
It would be very interesting if Kanbun Uechi did receive some formal documentation of rank or teaching certificate (if I take the reference of the term Menkyo correctly) because then the original name of this style, in original written form, would exist today and that may help find the roots of the system. It would also settle many historical questions about his teachers name – the pronunciation etc. because it would have to be signed.
However, since these questions do exist I don’t think there is such a document (George any comments?).
Rank Opinions or Opinions on Rank
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gmattson
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No documents, no rank
Kanbun did not receive any form of rank or certificates from China. Rank sort of evolved on Okinawa. . . Mostly because the teachers thought it was a good idea and primarily because the students wanted it.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
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Ted Dinwiddie
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Mike Keller's post kind of sums it up for me, too. I dreamt of "being a Black Belt" as a small boy with no knowledge of MA training or any real opportunity. Lo, these decades later, I walk into the dojo with my shodan and feel less knowledgeable than then. I see so many weak areas and my thirst to train and learn is insatiable. Alas, my body at 41 yrs is beginning to show me that there are limits.
My little shodan doesn't really mean schit, but I value it far more than my college degree. It was something I wanted and achieved versus did because I was "supposed to". I valued my (now expired) Professional Ski Instructors Association Associate Certification more than my BA, too, for the same reason. Both mean nothing in the "real world" but were harder and more fun to strive for than college ever was.
My little shodan doesn't really mean schit, but I value it far more than my college degree. It was something I wanted and achieved versus did because I was "supposed to". I valued my (now expired) Professional Ski Instructors Association Associate Certification more than my BA, too, for the same reason. Both mean nothing in the "real world" but were harder and more fun to strive for than college ever was.
ted
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
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gmattson
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Its not the rank... its the
1. Acceptance from others?
2. Knowing or believing that I know where I stand within the group?
3. Having a visual symbol of my position/status?
Does the symbol have to be a colored belt?
Whether you like rank or not, we all use some kind of symbol or designation to represent to ourselves and others our position within the groups we wish to associate with.
Most organizations use some form of rank to distinguish the "pecking" order within the group.
If the members are proud of what they are doing, they will respect the symbols. They may substitute symbols, but if you look carefully, you will see them within every dojo, every garage/basement facility; even if no belts are worn.
2. Knowing or believing that I know where I stand within the group?
3. Having a visual symbol of my position/status?
Does the symbol have to be a colored belt?
Whether you like rank or not, we all use some kind of symbol or designation to represent to ourselves and others our position within the groups we wish to associate with.
Most organizations use some form of rank to distinguish the "pecking" order within the group.
If the members are proud of what they are doing, they will respect the symbols. They may substitute symbols, but if you look carefully, you will see them within every dojo, every garage/basement facility; even if no belts are worn.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Out of all the people writing in and voicing opinions, how many of you do not have rank in a martial arts style? How many have students who train just to train with no belt or inclination of ever getting a belt or rank? How many of you have a majority of students who prefer not to test because they don't believe in testing or rank?
How many Uechi people out there have refused your last testing or grading because you see ranks as unimportant?
As Sensei Mattson stated it is about pride.
As Ted stated it is about personal accomplishment in an area you have chosen for yourself not what others have expected you to accomplish.
Maybe sensei Mattson can tell us how many certificates and belts have been returned to him over the years because students no longer believe in the belt or rank recognition system, but are still active, teaching or training or both. I know of 1...
Maybe we should start a topic asking what rank you tested for last and why?
How many Uechi people out there have refused your last testing or grading because you see ranks as unimportant?
As Sensei Mattson stated it is about pride.
As Ted stated it is about personal accomplishment in an area you have chosen for yourself not what others have expected you to accomplish.
Maybe sensei Mattson can tell us how many certificates and belts have been returned to him over the years because students no longer believe in the belt or rank recognition system, but are still active, teaching or training or both. I know of 1...
Maybe we should start a topic asking what rank you tested for last and why?
In my school under my late Sifu there was no rank, no belts and no traditional attire, although we did have a school shirt, normally worn with black sweat pants - and kung-fu shoes were encouraged because they are slippery and hard to grip in. This is much the same as it was under his teacher Yip Man. Bruce, of course, also had no belt.
The workings of 'rank' are only defined in the Si-Hing Si-Dai and Sifu relationships.
(although there is a note in the kuen kuit about the one with 'better hands' being the real senior.)
This is established when you first 'arrive' at the school. Everyone who was there before you is your Si Hing, or older brother - everyone who comes after you is your Si Dai, or younger brother - or sister as the case may be (Si Loy). When two people arrive at the school at the same time - the one who gets through the door first is the Si Hing. Sifu is your teacher.
There is also a distinction I think when you reach the third form. At this time you are considered sort of a junior teacher. When you finish the system with approval you are given two very large polished wood plaques that have the family name burned into them and painted with Chinese characters and the family plum symbol. They are really quite beautiful - Sifu would make these by hand. You may then open a school if desired.
Having also been involved with karate I just can't see karate without belts and rank. These hierarchical conventions just seem appropriate in traditional Japanese budo.
Jim
The workings of 'rank' are only defined in the Si-Hing Si-Dai and Sifu relationships.
(although there is a note in the kuen kuit about the one with 'better hands' being the real senior.)
This is established when you first 'arrive' at the school. Everyone who was there before you is your Si Hing, or older brother - everyone who comes after you is your Si Dai, or younger brother - or sister as the case may be (Si Loy). When two people arrive at the school at the same time - the one who gets through the door first is the Si Hing. Sifu is your teacher.
There is also a distinction I think when you reach the third form. At this time you are considered sort of a junior teacher. When you finish the system with approval you are given two very large polished wood plaques that have the family name burned into them and painted with Chinese characters and the family plum symbol. They are really quite beautiful - Sifu would make these by hand. You may then open a school if desired.
Having also been involved with karate I just can't see karate without belts and rank. These hierarchical conventions just seem appropriate in traditional Japanese budo.
Jim
Last edited by Shaolin on Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Never tested in Uechi in 30 plus years. I know that I'm not in the majority. I've tested in aikido -- only because my not testing became an issue for my some of my dojo mates and the instructors. Wasn't worth it to put up with their questions each time a testing came around. So I tested when I felt like it and not when folks thought I should have.How many Uechi people out there have refused your last testing or grading because you see ranks as unimportant?
For me, the process of training stands on it's own as important/integral. Everything else is more or less extraneous.
david
I'm terrified of my black belt test- but I will do it because of that- but I would venture a little notion that rank and degree- may have subtle differences- 
the testing IS for students- to help self esteem- etc- confidense yeah- but when you reach Dan- That's when the real martial arts journey of training begins.
K
p.s. not testing doesn't determine your skill- though if I understand the rules correctly- if you want to get past Seisan- and go for the other three- you need the "degrees right?-
I really want that black belt- but it's more to show my commitment to others- so I'll have what people call "credentials" THEN they'll HAVE to listen to me cuz/ I'll be-a black belt (*silly whiney nasal voice*) (joking here lol) and to learn the next kata- and on and on-
the testing IS for students- to help self esteem- etc- confidense yeah- but when you reach Dan- That's when the real martial arts journey of training begins.
K
p.s. not testing doesn't determine your skill- though if I understand the rules correctly- if you want to get past Seisan- and go for the other three- you need the "degrees right?-
I really want that black belt- but it's more to show my commitment to others- so I'll have what people call "credentials" THEN they'll HAVE to listen to me cuz/ I'll be-a black belt (*silly whiney nasal voice*) (joking here lol) and to learn the next kata- and on and on-
Kerry,
Don't be terrified of your black belt test and don't pay any attention to what I wrote about throwing good karate away for the duration of training for the test. Those words were not meant for you right now.
If your sensei says you are ready and sponsors you then replace your terrification with confidence in your sensei that he knows what he's doing and self confidence that if he believes in you then you must be doing ok.
The sparring is no worst than regular sparring, it just looks that way.
Good luck.
I was ten years before I even wanted to test for dan although I was told that I was ready after 1.5 years. I would have had no trouble remaining at that rank except I was about to open my first Uechi dojo and was interested in a little more "credibility" for advertising purposes.
Everyone has their own slant on their meanings and purposes, Kerry, and I'm sure if your's is important to you, you'll treasure it. Just make sure someone takes a video.
Don't be terrified of your black belt test and don't pay any attention to what I wrote about throwing good karate away for the duration of training for the test. Those words were not meant for you right now.
If your sensei says you are ready and sponsors you then replace your terrification with confidence in your sensei that he knows what he's doing and self confidence that if he believes in you then you must be doing ok.
The sparring is no worst than regular sparring, it just looks that way.
Good luck.
Don't let anyone kid you. Your journey began on your first class and your dan will be a point of recognition of your achievements by others and by yourself.the testing IS for students- to help self esteem- etc- confidense yeah- but when you reach Dan- That's when the real martial arts journey of training begins.
I was ten years before I even wanted to test for dan although I was told that I was ready after 1.5 years. I would have had no trouble remaining at that rank except I was about to open my first Uechi dojo and was interested in a little more "credibility" for advertising purposes.
Everyone has their own slant on their meanings and purposes, Kerry, and I'm sure if your's is important to you, you'll treasure it. Just make sure someone takes a video.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Rick Wilson
Well this thread drew some good discussion.
I am still caught in the rank issue. Perhaps when I make the change in the next few years from a commercial lease operation to a basement dojo I will be free to make some decisions (or courageous enough to).
Was I proud when I got my Shodan – you bet. I’ve got a picture of Neil Dunnigan Sensei presenting it and the look on my face is undeniable.
If I ever chose to go without rank would I return my certificates? I doubt it. They are part of my history, and besides, the last one is signed by George and I like that.
If I can sum up the reasons people said they liked rank they would be:
Hierarchy.
Symbol of position and status.
Pecking order.
Discipline and order.
Acceptance by others.
Credentials.
Symbol of time and effort.
The attainment of a goal strived for and achieved.
Marking of a significant event or rite of passage.
A tool for teaching large classes.
A tool to segregate tournament categories.
I think that sums it up.
Looking at the above list there is no doubt that rank will achieve those purposes.
As I said before my intent was to gather some thoughts and opinions. My intent was to have this aid my personal reflections on rank.
I believe this post has done that; however, not in favour of the need for a rank. You see no where in that list does anyone say it improved my Uechi Ryu which is really all that is becoming important to me.
Rank does achieve the purposes listed. No dispute.
Rank creates hierarchy and a pecking order (or cult like control in the wrong hands).
Shodan is clearly a goal strived for and hard won (when done properly). No dispute – be proud, I was.
But these all appear to be trappings that have nothing to do with your actual training.
Please don’t misunderstand me, as I said rank achieves these purposes and, if that is what is wanted, then you want a ranking system. Depends on what you are looking for. It is not what I am looking for.
There are a number of things that began my questioning of rank. One was that I have learned more in each previous year that I have had my black belt than in all the years prior.
Now you might think that is because I achieved my black belt but you would be wrong. It was because after I got my Shodan I could begin to let go of all that testing and rank stuff and focus on really learning what I am doing. The more I go along the less, if any, I think about testing.
I have come to think that the focus on the next rank may actually detract from the deeper learning.
I was eager to test for Sandan because the way things were set up they didn’t teach you Sanseirui until you had Sandan and I wanted the entire Uechi picture.
But since they used to teach all the Kata before you got black belt I think the only true requirements are time and if you are ready. Everything else is artificial or just a guideline.
Yes, I also tested for Yondan. Why? Because David Sensei put me up for testing. Because 4th degree sounds better to the uneducated on the phones than 3rd. Because I’m still part of that set up and that is what you do. If you are in a rank set up you test. And, if I am being truly honest, there was still a small part of me that wanted it.
So I tested, but I did nothing special to prepare other than continue doing what I do every day every week. Well yes, I actually did Dan Kumite and Seeisan Bunkai.
After I achieved Yondan I didn’t know anything more about Uechi than I did the day before.
I am not ready to give rank up yet. Honestly, it is because there are still commercial concerns I have be free of. Or may be I need that dose of courage.
I am sure that if and when I make that shift I will lose students.
I thank everyone for their comments. Clearly rank serves an organizational function. It also is a personal goal to be set and achieved.
But my basic rebel nature doesn’t like to be coffined by an artificial pecking order. There are people I respect and I would do so even if they didn't have rank (I know because some of them don’t).
Thank you to all.
I am still caught in the rank issue. Perhaps when I make the change in the next few years from a commercial lease operation to a basement dojo I will be free to make some decisions (or courageous enough to).
Was I proud when I got my Shodan – you bet. I’ve got a picture of Neil Dunnigan Sensei presenting it and the look on my face is undeniable.
If I ever chose to go without rank would I return my certificates? I doubt it. They are part of my history, and besides, the last one is signed by George and I like that.
If I can sum up the reasons people said they liked rank they would be:
Hierarchy.
Symbol of position and status.
Pecking order.
Discipline and order.
Acceptance by others.
Credentials.
Symbol of time and effort.
The attainment of a goal strived for and achieved.
Marking of a significant event or rite of passage.
A tool for teaching large classes.
A tool to segregate tournament categories.
I think that sums it up.
Looking at the above list there is no doubt that rank will achieve those purposes.
As I said before my intent was to gather some thoughts and opinions. My intent was to have this aid my personal reflections on rank.
I believe this post has done that; however, not in favour of the need for a rank. You see no where in that list does anyone say it improved my Uechi Ryu which is really all that is becoming important to me.
Rank does achieve the purposes listed. No dispute.
Rank creates hierarchy and a pecking order (or cult like control in the wrong hands).
Shodan is clearly a goal strived for and hard won (when done properly). No dispute – be proud, I was.
But these all appear to be trappings that have nothing to do with your actual training.
Please don’t misunderstand me, as I said rank achieves these purposes and, if that is what is wanted, then you want a ranking system. Depends on what you are looking for. It is not what I am looking for.
There are a number of things that began my questioning of rank. One was that I have learned more in each previous year that I have had my black belt than in all the years prior.
Now you might think that is because I achieved my black belt but you would be wrong. It was because after I got my Shodan I could begin to let go of all that testing and rank stuff and focus on really learning what I am doing. The more I go along the less, if any, I think about testing.
I have come to think that the focus on the next rank may actually detract from the deeper learning.
I was eager to test for Sandan because the way things were set up they didn’t teach you Sanseirui until you had Sandan and I wanted the entire Uechi picture.
But since they used to teach all the Kata before you got black belt I think the only true requirements are time and if you are ready. Everything else is artificial or just a guideline.
Yes, I also tested for Yondan. Why? Because David Sensei put me up for testing. Because 4th degree sounds better to the uneducated on the phones than 3rd. Because I’m still part of that set up and that is what you do. If you are in a rank set up you test. And, if I am being truly honest, there was still a small part of me that wanted it.
So I tested, but I did nothing special to prepare other than continue doing what I do every day every week. Well yes, I actually did Dan Kumite and Seeisan Bunkai.
After I achieved Yondan I didn’t know anything more about Uechi than I did the day before.
I am not ready to give rank up yet. Honestly, it is because there are still commercial concerns I have be free of. Or may be I need that dose of courage.
I am sure that if and when I make that shift I will lose students.
I thank everyone for their comments. Clearly rank serves an organizational function. It also is a personal goal to be set and achieved.
But my basic rebel nature doesn’t like to be coffined by an artificial pecking order. There are people I respect and I would do so even if they didn't have rank (I know because some of them don’t).
Thank you to all.
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jorvik
RICK
What you have just said reminded me of a Buddhist tale. There was aman who was a very learned Buddhist and also a total vegetarian.
One chap to catch hin out asked him if in the higher realms of understanding in Buddhism there is a distinction between being a vegetarian and eating meat...He replied " No, there isn't"
guy " If there is no distinction, why are you a vegetarian?"
Master" If there is no distinction. Why should you want me to change?"
I just saw a similarity to this thread
What you have just said reminded me of a Buddhist tale. There was aman who was a very learned Buddhist and also a total vegetarian.
One chap to catch hin out asked him if in the higher realms of understanding in Buddhism there is a distinction between being a vegetarian and eating meat...He replied " No, there isn't"
guy " If there is no distinction, why are you a vegetarian?"
Master" If there is no distinction. Why should you want me to change?"
I just saw a similarity to this thread
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Fred Sanford
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:28 am
1) Do you see rank as important?
Not at all.
2) Why (if you care to share)?
I think often it is used to feed ego's rather than truly denote one's skill. If someone is better than me I respect that, I don't need to see a belt around their waist.
3) Did the rank of your instructor influence you choosing his school?
No.
4) Does rank make us more legitimate?
Not to me. If you don't have skill all the rank in the world means nothing.
5) Could an association run without rank?
probably not, depends on what kind of rank you are talking about. Any organization needs clearly defined leaders or you just end up with chaos, but by the same token individual students with or without belt rankings would have minimal impact on the org.
6) Would you train if no ranks were handed out?
been training that way for a couple of years and I like it just fine.
Not at all.
2) Why (if you care to share)?
I think often it is used to feed ego's rather than truly denote one's skill. If someone is better than me I respect that, I don't need to see a belt around their waist.
3) Did the rank of your instructor influence you choosing his school?
No.
4) Does rank make us more legitimate?
Not to me. If you don't have skill all the rank in the world means nothing.
5) Could an association run without rank?
probably not, depends on what kind of rank you are talking about. Any organization needs clearly defined leaders or you just end up with chaos, but by the same token individual students with or without belt rankings would have minimal impact on the org.
6) Would you train if no ranks were handed out?
been training that way for a couple of years and I like it just fine.
