None telegraphic M.A.s

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:41 pm

This idea grew partly out of something that Bill said, but also out of a few things that I've seen.
How can you attack, without telegraphing your intention?
I've thought of this from a few possible scenarios...somebody is hustling you, getting ready to hit you, if you don't comply with their demands, you know this is going to happen....so how do you get the first blow in and end the confrontation quickly?
If you have your hands up....like a boxer ( Uechi) you will telegraph. I have thought of bringing the hand up from the hip in a semi circle...just to stun him, or alternatively having the hands loose on the hips like in Shotokan to just punch in a sort of relaxed way........my reasoning is, that to somebody who knows fighting they will watch your shoulders to see when they move, when your shoulder rises they know you are going to throw a punch....the sucker punch they tend to dip right down on the side that they throw the punch. These moves avoid that ( as does a kick to the knee)

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 8:41 pm

youve got it Jorvik .. like shotokan

but I may be biased , honestly theres no need to telegraph , easier said than done though . Honestly its action beats reaction , its over if you can hit and keep hitting .

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 1:20 am

Wing Chun doesn't telegraph as often. His a good site with clips to watch. www.wingchunkwoon.com/ I have a chance to work with this sifu and I'm going to take it.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:12 am

I have a few suggestions...

1) Never chamber unless you are throwing techique 1 + n.

2) Resign yourself to the fact that you are going to telegraph. Learn how to do it really really well (there is an art to this...) and understand how the person will respond ahead of time (there is an art to this...). Then do what you REALLY mean to do on the next technique. This takes practice. Gary Khoury's sparring video teaches this a bit.

3) On the flip side of number 2, learn what it is that makes people respond to a telegraph. Then, find ways not to do it. One good way is to be so close that they cannot see what you are doing. There are other ways...

4) Learn to use all your appendages. Learn to attack the BG from head to toes (literally).

5) Attack the attacker's attack, or the arms/legs that are close to you. This has a wonderful way of taking the starch out of your opponent for a second or two. This is where good irons shirt and kyusho training can help (preferably leaving your chi at home...

).

- Bill

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:13 am

How about also working on striking/blocking out of the most common/casual limb and body positions, so if Mr. BG looms over you while you're lounging on a beach chair, you have a plan.

NM

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:52 pm

Thanks for the responces

My reason for starting this thread was something that happened in training. I was training at my friend's club and there was a drill that he was doing. One guy held the pad ,the other tried to hit it, whenever the first guy saw the punch coming he would move the pad.......it was almost impossible to hit the pad....maybe once every 10 times, and this is reaction, not action...the puncher is instigating the attack

I figured that there must be an easier way to do it.
I recently saw a re run of the film "hardtimes" with Charles Bronson...were he played a streetfighter, I noticed in the fight that instead of jabbing he raked his hand upward in an arc......just started me thinking, that maybe there were techniques that were non telegraphic....I know that crescent kicks are hard to see when done in close, and also knee kicks.....and generally any swinging type of strike done low down, like a groin slap.I was just wondering if anybody else thought along these lines

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:16 pm

jorvik

Somebody who's a master at this is Roy Bedard. He's phenominal. He gives a seminar on the topic. Not sure how easy it is to write about the subject... But I'll invite him over to comment.

- Bill

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:48 pm

One of the drills we do regularly at Quantico involves not telegraphing your intent. We do it only when practicing knife slashes, off the front leg with the strong side forward.

The partner wears a heavy pad on the fore arm and tries to move out of range as soon as he senses a slash coming. As Jorvik stated, it is pretty difficult at first to slash your partners arm, but with practice there is huge improvement.

My give-away is I start to move my hips or push slightly off my back foot as I start to move. Pretty much what you want to do to get your body behind the attack. The secret with the knife is to move your hips etc after you start arm movement. In this case, let the blade do the work instead if driving initially with your torso or lower body and get the first cut.

The Marines who are practicing this movement are really good at it. However, it is not part of the official program, but something being considered for advanced students.

Rich

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:49 pm

One of the reasons that the uppercut, and the uechi eye strikes, the circular bushiken combination, and knee strikes are so effective is that they go from low to high. Low to high seems to be a very difficult angle for most to deal with. The Uechi version of the uppercut is nice because it leaves your fingers forward to grab and do further damage.

The next time you're doing the exercise, try to decide where they're moving the pad to and hit it there. Track it. They should be giving away their intention as well.

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:42 am

Dana, do you also practice the Reiken (sp?) punch as a straight-up -the-middle sort of "Uechi uppercut"?
We do it that way, rather than "backfist" style.
Real hard to block 'cause it's already halfway there (Sanchin position), and no telegraph at all, especially no windup.

NM

david · Post by **david** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:03 am

and within a given distance, the connection will almost be certain. You can minimize telegraphing but it will almost always be there to a certain extent. Hence the use of feigns or combinations. In terms of BG, his job is to close the distance with some kind of distraction or deception. Within a certain range, his action will beat your reaction. Simple.

The best the defender can do is to maintain initial distance to give reaction more time. The second best is to condition an automatic counterattack, angling to deflect a full hit and immediately striking back.

The example of moving the focus mitt really doesn't reflect reality. In real world, the attack will be a full frontal assault with a barage of strikes. If the first misses and is not immediately countered, then the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth strikes will get in. Don't even think of a specific attack, just that you will keep attacking until the other is down. If you have ever had to launch a preemptive (thus defensive) attack, you will know this to be true...

david

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:56 pm

Thanks to everyone for their responces, thinking about it I can see that there is a lot more to this than I initially thought. I think that we all get a bit complacent with the stuff we know and some times are unsure just how effective it will be.....when in fact it would be very effective.
I am thinking here of a knee kick, i.e kicking the knee, kansetsu geri ( I think

) you would probably cripple somebody, and it is very hard to detect.
Rich thanks for sharing your military experience, it's good to know the practises of elite forces......maybe steal something from them for future use

, they only teach this as advanced stuff, and experimental to boot...so I guess that shows how difficult it is

Dana I'll try what you suggest, i.e. tracking the pad.......I did try to move in a circle, so that when he followed me I could make some ground on him. ( one of my favourite tricks is to throw a jab and simultaneously move to the left in a circling motion, if it lands or he blinks then when he looks again I am in a different place) doesn't really work with the pad though.....coz he doesn't blink.
I did actually remember one thing from my first Sensei.....he used to do nukite like a punch and his fist would fly open like a tiger's claws, he used to say to hold your hand like a garden rake ( So your fingers won't bend back the wrong way).........and the other thing was the way Ali used to jab, he would lean in on his left foot and reach over and go almost of balance.....I might try that with the nukite

None telegraphic M.A.s

None telegraphic M.A.s

Action Beats Reaction