false fighting??????????????

[Guest]

A statement of the fact there are rules. Which makes for a better training environment than a fight to the death with all these skilled fighters equipped with killer Uechi and pointy weapons.

But how do these folks train?
And how do they feel about the sparring componet of the test?

I know some been their done that credible folks who no longer spar,and I know folks who can't fight the tide in the bathtub, who don't spar cause it ain't real.

So how do these karateka train and why do they continue to diss those who test themselves? I'm always interested in another path .

Laird

[Stryke]

Hey Laird Im with ya , I know sparring the wrong way can become hit faster punch faster and no more ..... Ive had the been there done that mentality , and then done the this is application this is destroying your opponent .... these days Im back into sparring and its doing application and destroying the opponent against the hit harder and punch faster guys ....

there is no other way than testing yourself somehow , rules are an unfortunate neccessity

[2Green]

Sparring:
You know how I feel about it..not dissin' it or those who do it.
Just saying it's a different thing, that's all.
It's not fighting, and I know YOU know that.
That's why I said 'false-fighting"...people don't spar when they're REALLY fighting, I realize you know that too.
As I pointed out also, I AM going to have to learn it, and I will approach it for what it is.
I don't expect I'll ever be much good at it, nor do I have any desire to be.

NM

[Guest]

Sparring:
You know how I feel about it..not dissin' it or those who do it.

Actually neil I have no idea how you feel about it. I have read many post from you over the years in which you appear to view any martial sport in low requard.

It's not fighting, and I know YOU know that.

Do I? What is a fight? It does not have to be to the death or have weapons involved to be a fight. I consider a fight someone attempting to dominate me through force. My attempting to prevent physical domination through physical means is what I define as fighting back.Fighting back in a land of structured rules, but if you don't pay attention someone may end up swallowing their own bloody snot or swallowing their front teeth.These false fights are of course just games with rules and fighters rarely die, but it's still a growing experience.

That's why I said 'false-fighting"...people don't spar when they're REALLY fighting, I realize you know that too.

I see and people don't ever box when they are really fighting, they just fight. . Yes real fights tend to be ugly affairs, but ones response to physical domination is tempered by ones perception of the threat. Call me an A-hole, but I've toyed with people who were in over their heads. All it took to shut them down was a few shots and lots of embarasment. They claimed they had been in a fight I thought I was sparring with a timid white belt.

As I pointed out also, I AM going to have to learn it, and I will approach it for what it is.

How can you know what it is if you haven't been their done that yet? I'd recommend you approach this training with the same open mind you have brought to the dojo for the rest of your training.Instead of shutting it down explore it and see what you can discover. Their is a huge amount to learn about your Uechi in this exercise.

I don't expect I'll ever be much good at it, nor do I have any desire to be

Don't quit before you start. That's just out of character for you!

And remember some fine Uechi Seniors like Canna, Maloney,etc............(the list is lengthy)....all put considerable energy into tournament sparring. I'd suggest they all feel they took lots away from the experience.

Just food for thought.

and protect your head at all times

Laird

[TSDguy]

"I can't use my Death Touch."

Use lots of different rules! Even in the same match, go round 1 with full speed, no contact, anything at all goes. Round 2 with slow motion full contact anything at all goes. Round 3 with full speed full contact, no lethal techniques. etc. etc.

"Real fights aren't a duel."

If you get whooped by one guy, you'll get whooped twice as fast by two with weapons.

Things you learn:

1)Your techniques don't work. I once shattered a guys ribs with a side kick at an open tourney. He then proceeded to kick my ass and win the match, then forfeit the toureny after he'd had his fill. Another guy got a few fused (!) ribs broken by my back kick and shrugged it off as though I'd slapped him across the face. A classmate had his arm snapped trying to block a kick and then fought his opponent into overtime. Two classmates have had their ribs broken while wearing chest gaurds and went on to win their divisions anyway. Some people don't go down unless they feel like it; get used to it.

2)People are hard to hit. If you can't land a sloppy, full speed, don't-care-where-it-lands jab (and you 100% can't if you haven't tested this out) how can you land a carefully controlled and targeted pressure point strike? Huh-uh. Doesn't happen.

3)Your head/solar plexus/groin/____ is completley open and you can't see that even looking in a mirror because you don't know what people can do to you.

Ok, I'm done I promise. My sincere apologies for assualting all your non-sparrers.

[2Green]

No apologies necessary! We're offering our personal opinions in a gentlemanly way, even if we disagree--I think that's exactly how it should be.
I must go back a bit for Laird and clarify--sorry, I thought my opinions were known, from previous posting...

1: I believe that sparring, as I have observed it, and attempted somewhat, is a related but separate skill from self defense.
My reasons are: I have never sparred or seen sparring in a real fight. (definition: real fight = an UNPLANNED attack/defense situation between two NON-CONSENTING individuals.)

2: I believe that sparring is related to the sport aspect of Karate, and that Karate was not conceived to be a sport; I will use Kanbun Uechi's intent in this example.
Since I have no interest in Karate as a sport, TO ME, the sparring aspect goes out with that.

3: I have observed that when the sparring starts, the Uechi Ryu stops. It looks like kick-boxing to me.
I realize of course that there are levels of sparring...I would be very interested to see a sparring match where any non-Uechi technique resulted in instant disqualification!

4: As TSDguy pointed out, sure, you can get hurt. I know of TKD matches where people got carried out on a stretcher. Fighters can get hurt and still win too.
The referees are standing by.
The stretchers are standing by.
The public is watching.
Rules are in force.
It's a game of "I'll kick your ass": which to me is the antithesis of the Karate ideal, which is to use violence only for personal protection when no other option exists, and then to use whatever you need, unbounded by the HABITS of rules fighting.

I can't think of a worse situation than to be stuck in a ring, wearing padded gloves and boots and shin pads and a full-face helmet and whatever else, facing an opponent who is similarly attired, and hearing "...go ahead..try your Uechi Ryu now!!"
I really don't know what the hell I would do.

However, the time a drunken a$$hole rushed the stage and tried to yank our singer down onto the dance floor, I knew exactly what to do, and did it.
I've had a fair amount of real-life experience with confrontations, and NEVER did it resemble what I see in a sparring match, so if I'm learning "self defense", why would I want to do that?

Despite the above, please understand that I realize the importance of sports and how martial arts are a part of it, and I DO admire great boxers, wrestlers, etc. for their skill in the ring, and I DO NOT feel afraid to test my abilities.
When the test comes (and it has) I'll be in jeans and sneakers, not a Gi.
People can pursue Karate for a lot of different reasons, and competition is one of them, and a legitimate one for those people...I'm just not one of them, but I RESPECT them!
I have discovered that I am a minority...I have no problem with that.
Hope this clarifies my feelings...I am open to opinions of others, and I would love to hear for example, some rebuttal on "how sparring helped my self defense" or something like that.

NM

[Guest]

I believe that sparring, as I have observed it, and attempted somewhat, is a related but separate skill from self defense.

I agree, just like prearranged kumite's, and bunkai.....they teach skills you can use but they are not the holly grail.

My reasons are: I have never sparred or seen sparring in a real fight. (definition: real fight = an UNPLANNED attack/defense situation between two NON-CONSENTING individuals.)

and your definition for sparring is? Their are many different schools of though that range from no touch point fights with areas off the body off limits to 3 minutes full contact to knock down tournaments. You can make it as real as you wish.

2: I believe that sparring is related to the sport aspect of Karate, and that Karate was not conceived to be a sport; I will use Kanbun Uechi's intent in this example.
Since I have no interest in Karate as a sport, TO ME, the sparring aspect goes out with that.

but Kanbuns guys sparred all the time. They had a Japanese name for it but it as your basic free fighting until someone said I quit.

3: I have observed that when the sparring starts, the Uechi Ryu stops. It looks like kickboxing to me

so what's wrong with kickboxing?
.

I realize of course that there are levels of sparring...I would be very interested to see a sparring match where any non-Uechi technique resulted in instant disqualification!

that's the last thing I'd like to see. I wouldn't want to limit cross training of or interpretation. What ever works! Remember fights aren't pretty so they will not look like dojo drills.

It's a game of "I'll kick your ass": which to me is the antithesis of the Karate ideal, which is to use violence only for personal protection when no other option exists, and then to use whatever you need, unbounded by the HABITS of rules fighting

The beauty of the game is you have an opportunity to suffer some of the wheat from the chaff. You find out what is just fluff and discard it. But most important you get to test some of your skills in a venue that is not prearranged and that can get the knees knocking.

I can't think of a worse situation than to be stuck in a ring, wearing padded gloves and boots and shin pads and a full-face helmet and whatever else, facing an opponent who is similarly attired, and hearing "...go ahead..try your Uechi Ryu now!!"

I can't think of a better reality check.. If you can not find your uechi in this controlled setting how will you use it when the raging bull comes straight down the middle and dumps you on your butt?

I really don't know what the hell I would do.

Then maybe you should play the game and find out.

I've had a fair amount of real-life experience with confrontations, and NEVER did it resemble what I see in a sparring match, so if I'm learning "self defense", why would I want to do that?

I guess if you have all the skills and answers there's probably no reason to explore any new methods of testing your skills learning to take a shot or learning how to pick your range. My last fight didn't resemble any uechi I'd seen. It wasn't pretty but it was effective. My opponent never got a shot in. And some might claim it was not uechi.Sigh…..When I walk away and the bone head doesn't I call it uechi.The purity police might argue the point…..who cares…..Effective is good in my book.

Despite the above, please understand that I realize the importance of sports and how martial arts are a part of it, and I DO admire great boxers, wrestlers, etc. for their skill in the ring, and I DO NOT feel afraid to test my abilities.
When the test comes (and it has) I'll be in jeans and sneakers, not a Gi.
People can pursue Karate for a lot of different reasons, and competition is one of them, and a legitimate one for those people...I'm just not one of them, but I RESPECT them!

I don't advocate daily sparring for completion Neil, but rather for the skills you may acquire while exploring your uechi in a non arranged format.

I would love to hear for example, some rebuttal on "how sparring helped my self defense" or something like that.

I'm beat but I'll attempt to cover that tomorrow. I'm not dissing your path, just trying to encourage you to take a second look at sparring…….besides it's fun hitting your friends.


Laird

[2Green]

Thanks...I'm beat too... hey! are we sparring?!
NM

[Guest]

[Stryke]

Quote

I would love to hear for example, some rebuttal on "how sparring helped my self defense" or something like that.


** heh who would of figured id be drawn to this one

Im faster , have better footwork , have better control of the chemical cocktail , am stronger , more determined , more used to taking a knock and overcoming , am used to a wider variety of attacks rather than just the same dojo style stuff , am used to fighting extremely varied skill levels , can perceive attacks and am generally more intuitive physically through the experiences of sparring , and learnt that there are no odds that cant be overcome , and the unlikely/can and will happen .

theres a start for ya , good thread guys

[david]

and do so against a number of opponents and in different settings.

Stryke pointed out the benefits well. More important, I think sparring/competition provides a medium to hone and develop your warrior spirit. I've seen enough tough talking, strong looking, great kata performers simply fold under the pressure of a well timed onslaught of true fighter hiding under a less than stellar kata performance. You can talk about "rules" but it all comes down to pitting one's will against that of another. If you can't do it that setting, you are less likely to be able to do so when there are no rules.

There was a time in my life when sparring and real fighting went hand in hand. There is no doubt in my mind that the sparring kept me tuned physically and mentally to take down the bigger guys on the streets who underestimated my willingness and preparation to do what it takes to put them on the pavement. This preparation comes from taking the hurt in sparring and competition and continuing no matter what until the bell rings for the end. Win or lose, you cut the spirit lose and let it soar no matter what is happening to the body. Your spirit learns to keep going even when the body is screaming to quit. In my mind, there is no other exercise in dojo practice that come close to testing the spirit as in sparring against another who is doing the same.

Ultimately, in my mind, it is when the experienced streetfighter welcomes your presence next to them when the going gets tough that validates one's training and fighting ability more than any adulation, praise, rank or whatever one gets in the dojo.

I don't down other folks practices and what they want out of dojo training. These are valid (and more applicable to me these days). But I believe the practitioner who believes he can be a better "real fighter" without first pitting his skills and will in a ring against an opponent looking to dominate him/her, albeit with rules, is engaged in varying degrees of delusion. Sorry, if this offends, but it is based simply on what I have seen and experienced.

david

[Mary Chant]

Let me first preface my comments with the ackowledgement that I am only a san kyu (in another style no less). I studied Uechi in the early 80s and owe it a great deal; it has positively impacted many areas of my life.

I don't rely on sparring as a realistic fight reenactment. But sparring does help me work on the following things:

1. Desensitizing myself to the stress I feel before the "conflict"
2. Adapting technique to a more realistic setting than the air
3. How to adapt when my "finishing" technique does nothing but elicit a smirk from my opponent
4. How to maintain control when I start to get p----d off after not getting my technique in or after getting pasted. It helps me work on not getting sloppy from anger.
5. How to read openings when there appear to be none.
6. My footwork, which needs a lot of help.
7. How to get hit and not fold

I have been physically attacked twice in my life, and am confident that my training (at that point I had only had Uechi ryu training) was key to my success. What part kata, what part sparring, what part other conditioning, I don't know. But I do believe that the sparring experience played a big part.

One of the best things that ever happened to me in sparring was the first time I got pasted. Why? Because I survived it and I never had to worry about it happening for the first time again. I think this may be especially important for women, because it is a foreign concept to how most of us are socialized (unless, God forbid, there is abuse). To learn how to take the hit and keep going can alter your entire mindset for when you find yourself in a dangerous situation. I am not comparing sparring to an real life attack--don't get me wrong, and I am certainly not advocating false bravado or cockiness, but to engage in the physical confrontation of sparring in a safe environment can help overcome at least in part one of the hurdles we face in real life.

There are a lot of other things I do to protect myself, a big one being visualization. Probably at least once a day I go through a mental exercise, either at work, out to eat, at the store, wherever, and run through the following questions:
1. How would I respond if that man came after me right now (nothing personal, guys)? He could be behind me, front, to the side, whatever
2. What are my escapes?"
3. What are his vulnerabilities?
4. What if my ankle was sprained, right arm was broken, etc........?
4. What space constraints do I have in my response?
Things like that.

Do sparring, kata, conditioning and visualization make me feel invulnerable? No way. Do I feel I have a better shot at survival than before I worked on these areas? You bet.

Again, as you read these, remember I'm only a san kyu. It's just that sometimes I have so much gratitude for the opportunity to study and what I have been given, and so much excitement for the art, that I just can't keep my thoughts to myself.

Mary Chant

[f.Channell]

I must say I'm fortunate to have trained with some of Uechi's greatest tournament fighters.
Van Canna, Bobby Campbell, Bob Bethaney and Jimmy Maloney.
It's young guns such as Gary Khoury, Joey Pomfret, Fedele Cacia and others.
Our Okinawan counterparts and seniors Kiyohide Shinjo (9 time fighting champion of Okinawa) Narahiro Shinjo (5 time champion) Maemiya (3 time champion).
If you doubt for one second that a much higher level of instinct, timing, determination and speed don't come with tournament sparring then you should seek out one of these guys and see for yourself.
And why doesn't speed hurt, the faster it is the more "sting" it has.
Mary,
Don't apologize for being a Sankyu in Uechi, I know how many of my students drop out well before that for a multitude of excuses. And your post shows all the right reasons to spar. I only question why you don't live near any Uechi Dojo's, I would move !!
Off to summer camp with me!!
F.

[Guest]

Some excellent responses! Most benifits have been covered, Yes Fred the cream of the crop seem to to all have tested themselves in the ring. BTW when you face a stranger and it's just him and you and you test yourselves.......that's respect! You probably will leave that ring with a deeper understanding and respect for that individual.

Reading

An all important skill you just don't experience unless you face an opponent in an unscripted attack. Prearranged work dealing with known attacks from predetermined angles just don't set you up to win against the sucker punch. The more you spar with different people and styles the more likely your reading will improve. It's a time and mileage thing like most of what we do.

Pre-empting

As your reading skills improve, time and mileage tells you that it is indeed better to give than receive. The more you spar the better you will get at skills like slipping. sliding over and under strikes, stepping around attacks and delivering your own counter attack.

Choosing your range

Sparring teaches one to fight at unfamilar ranges. Initially a more skilled opponent may force you to fight at a range that your just not comfortable with. Pain is an excellent teacher and through time and mileage you will learn how to enter and exit various ranges. Over time you will learn not to allow your opponent to dictate the range of the fight , you will force them to fight at a range of your choosing. Don't kick with a kicker, box with a boxer and don't go toe to toe with a slugger. Take these people to a zone were you can dominate, a range that takes away their strength. These skills are learned sparring.

Finish the fight

Unlike a controlled kumite drill the uncopoerative sparring partner may not stop after one punch. Infact they normaly land their own shot in response to your strike. If you engage in timed rounds you will quickly learn that your opponent is tough resilent and capable. If you don't dominate they will get back into the fight landing their own strikes. Remember IT"S BETTER TO GIVE THAN RECEIVE! Sparring will teach you to keep on giving.The opponents habit of striking back is great for teaching you to hit hard, removing low percentage fluffy shots from your arsenal that leave you in harms way.


Create an Oppourtunity

Kata teaches us the style, Bunaki's let us experiment/explore some appplications. But sparring teaches us how to create the openings to land those applications with greater sucess.

Sparring allows you to learn how the body reacts to strikes. Over time you learn to set up the finish with a combination of strikes. If the first strike brings the hands up to the head the 2nd may go to the body. If the low kick drops the hands the 2nd strike might be a palm to the chin or an elbow to the jaw.

You learn how to work up and down on the body and you learn to pass through the ranges.

A palm to the face may bring the the guard up,(it better )A second straight shot normally brings it up higher and further in front. A hiraken may just go right around that pre possitioned defense when it's delivered with a sliding step. Target the ear, neck or jaw hinge.

We karateka are masters of the feint but most of us never do. We train out kata with this one shot one kill mindset, and so we should! We are excellent at faking it, a powerfull kata, you can see and believe every kill shot.Yet we don't learn to fake an attack until we spar. The dip of a shoulder, the lift of an elbow and then capitalise on your oponents response. The flinch response is excellent for opening up targets in a fight. Fake to the head or groin and strike the opening. No fakes in our kata or bunkai.

I have learned to bait my opponents while sparing leaving them an opening that they just can't pass up. When they go for it the planned counter is delivered.

Pain

We humans are tougher than the average karate class credits us. I've read advanced folk talking of how it 's all over when you bust your hand in a fight. Hell I've broken mine over a half dozen times and it's not stoped me from finishing once. The dump looks after the pain and the swelling helps you out too. Fight injuries are not discovered until the fight is over in many cases.I remember Paul going 8 more rounds in Ottawa with a broken hand. Remember Ali fighting 13 rounds with a broken jaw. You can do it........but if you never have been hit before you might just go turtle.

Sparring allows you to experience what is like to take a shot. It lets you learn how to take something off a shot by going with it.

Position of Disadvantage

So you never saw that coming and now your playing catch up. You got rocked your on your heels and the attack is coming. You have to go from retreat to attack. (Better to give remember)

You learn how to play catch up sparing, you realize that some times you have no balance or stance but you just have to weather it. Movement is king and unless you have spent some time doing bullet man drills , NLD drills your going to to be an fish out of water cause you will not be in your stance.In a sparring match one experiencves this frequently and develops the skills to cope.

Few of these skills are developed without squaring of and playing. Besides it's fun!!!!!!

Laird

I honestly believe this exercise is the best way to develop the spirit the mindset to prevail.

[jorvik]

I agree with both arguments I have always loved to spar, Hate to say it but I've always had a problem with Kata ...............I've never had that with sparring, I've always loved it, and I learned a lot from different people, I stole a lot of ideas and incorporated them into what I did. Buut a lot of the stuff that I did in sparring wouldn't work on the street. I've said in the past that I love to kick ( was never very good at it.....and now have a titanium hip, which makes me even worse)..and a lot of what I used to score with was based on that.....sucker kicks to the head, or better still throw a punch so they move back then catch them with a kick to the head. I think that is the problem, you tend to use flashy stuff, tend to think in a certain style of timing, using multiple attacks, combinations etc.....when really for a streetfight, you shouldn't.....it can be over in two punches, it should be something like kick, punch, footsweep, finnisher like a gun going off.....grab hair punch kidneys........sounds like streetfighter Tai Chi