Abusing Uechi-ryu

DZ1050 · Post by **DZ1050** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:37 am

I've really been disturbed by individuals who misrepresent our style to one another and the public. It seems as though Uechi-ryu has been reduced, by some, to the lowest levels of human interest, namely violence, and perversion. I'm a strong believer in the traditional teachings of mind/body intergration via active meditation-kata. The goal is to achieve a balanced approach to oneself, others and the world. Yes, one result of intensive training is the ability to defend against an attack. However, this is not by any means, the ultimate purpose of Uechi-ryu. At some level of depravity one becomes preoccupied with how to kill human beings. This is against nature and a hinderance to spiritual development. People who fall into this trap have lost "the way." Driven by paranoia and anger they see demons behind every bush. They hide their fear behind delusions of personal power- they are weak. A long time ago, I discovered most dan rated people win confrontations by beating the opponant mentally, without them ever knowing it! No fight, no blame. Walking this path of peace is possible when we take ourselves out of the equation and live in the moment.

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:54 am

Normally I just ignore those I believe to be mere flamers but I am feeling playful tonight and since my computer has acted up I am intent to post on this where normally I would not take the time.

Interesting how many first posts are bashing ones. This was pointed out on another forum. Kind of lets you know what you are dealing with right up front.

I would be more impressed, and give this poster more credibility, had they any foundation of well presented and well thought out posts. Instead they jump all over some people who post. We have seen this before.

Since I have a thread on Intensity on another forum I have taken the targets of this post to include myself.

Also interesting that this post would not take into consideration the totality of many of the posts of the people who look strongly at reality and intensity in their training. If they had they may have found a balance is indeed what most seek.

“It seems as though Uechi-Ryu has been reduced, by some, to the lowest levels of human interest, namely violence, and perversion.”

Interesting how those who prepare for violence, rather than mislead their students, are now somehow linked to “perversion.” I have been involved these forums for many years and would love this unnamed individual to quote the “perversions.”

Perversions, such a nice word it immediately elicits distaste and visions of terrible atrocities. A word used with deliberate intent but no quotes or foundation. No debate.

I personally will state that those instructors who teach self defence while creating Black belts who cannot defend themselves are to me perverse.

“Yes, one result of intensive training is the ability to defend against an attack. However, this is not by any means, the ultimate purpose of Uechi-ryu.”

Once again what I consider a lack of complete reading is displayed. Those promoting being able to defend yourself with your Uechi are often clear that this is primary before you can accomplish all the rest. Without being able to perform the martial part of our art you might as well do Yoga or only Qigong.

It is my opinion that failing to handle the first and primary purpose of a martial art will actually prevent the rest of the development from truly happening beyond self delusion.

I have heard before the downplaying of self protection in martial arts. I once again ask them to read the history of ANY martial art and show me where self protection was not the first purpose. Failing to learn that properly is failing to learn your art. This includes Uechi Ryu.

“At some level of depravity one becomes preoccupied with how to kill human beings. This is against nature and a hinderance to spiritual development.”

Again having read these forums for some time it would be interesting to see which posts this individual has misread. A quote would be helpful.

“Driven by paranoia and anger they see demons behind every bush. They hide their fear behind delusions of personal power- they are weak.”

The difference between appropriate vigilance and paranoia has been explained many times on these forums over and over and over again.

“Delusions of personal power etc”? Ah, truly what I consider to be a pure flamer comment. No foundation or substance to back this insult just nasty name tossing.

Since I believe I have the poster pegged pretty well, I expect the response to be very self righteous and pretentious.

Done playing. Done with DZ1050, unless they actually post something of substance.

My apologises, Bill, I know I am rushing to judgement again.

DZ1050 · Post by **DZ1050** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:33 am

Rick, My name is David Zelbovitz, Shodan Cert. #1050, Uechi-ryu, 1976. I first started studying Uechi in 1966. Harry Brawley, Justin Testa, Bob Cambell and GEM were my instructors. This is not my first post, my Id/password had run out(DMS1050). I'm a licensed psychologist and have been working in this field 25 years. My post is based on a drift I've noticed over the years that pertain to some. If the shoe fits, wear it. I believe in self defence and am a member of the NRA, my daughter is in the USMC. If my observations are inaccurate, dismiss them, but I don't think I'm alone in this. Over the years, as it appears to me, the emphasis is on the Yang aspect of the art. I'll respond with specifics in a later post. Thanks for taking time to express your views.DZ1050

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:09 am

David:

You just gained a good deal of credibility with me by saying who you are. Flamers just don't do that.

What did you post under before? Perhaps by reading your previous posts I can get some context for your comments.

Where I went off line on your comments was the accusation of some of us being perverts etc.

I also like to know what posts people are forming their opinions on.

For instance, I am constantly surprised when people say Van’s forum is fixated on self protection. I mean that is the entire purpose of his forum.

Anyway, you have moved out of the flamer category and I look forward to your next post, and hopefully a good debate over the specifics.

Thanks,

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:25 pm

Hmm... Uechi under top instructors, NRA, USMC - Sounds like a good background to me!

Regarding the 'yang' component, it is tempered by the concept of the force continuum - use only enough force to stop the threat.

Rich

Halford · Post by **Halford** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:14 am

EVERY YIN! When we get through yining and yanging,we fail to see the full symbol of such,but then the small details are often well worth noting and when we overlook some of these things, it can be disastrous. I read the initial post in this topic and didn't get the impressions that others received and perhaps that is because I am not identified with Uechi-ryu in the full sense of identification that ordinary/contemporary people miscontrue in many ways. But I could see that in that posting there was hope for some responses from others obviously. If no one had responded then the topic would have died presumeably and I have posted many topics on other forums and had zero responses but some readings of such. Rick is right in stating that some persons want to ignite a controversy or make a topic glow in the night.

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:21 am

I'm not really qualified to reply to the original post, because there is both truth and fallacy exposed, in my limited experience.
I agree totally that there is a great emphasis on both defending the destructive potential of Uechi Ryu, and exposing its wannabe posers. A balance.
I see Karate self defense skills as a "last resort" option which have been tested, verified, and if you like, "certified" by seniors who have observed your skill.

I also believe that a lot of hidden tolerance, patience, compassion and good judgment in the face of aggression exists in our membership, but this is little-discussed.
It's like "the big one that got away"...who wants to discuss the fight that never happened?

So, I think that a lot of the "destructive-Uechi" talk that comes out is just a response to the people who say "we're all kidding ourselves" about self defense, and all the "we're kidding ourselves" stories are a wake-up call to the posers.

I guess as always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

NM

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:33 am

Is always difficult when these issues arise , styles and arts mean so different things to many people , what you consider the art is not what others perceive it as , your way might be as big a misrepresentation to them as theres is to you .

having said that i dont like to see any art bastardised , but its all perspective .

At the end of the day its the individual that should be judged , and this is what we should educate the public in , the person is responsible for themselves , this is budo .

While we keep selling an art as a path to enlightenment , a spiritual growth tool , a passive self defence method , a quasi religion , then we give give people the oppurtunity to set a bad example for the art .

when we start explaining its just a tool and its up to the individual what there actions and benifits they take from it are , then they no longer harm the style .

I have a gun sitting in front of me , my decision to pick it up and commit mass murder makes me a killer , or my decision to use it to hunt for food makes me a hunter , or using it to protect my family makes me a protector ? , the gun itself makes me nothing . Its how I use it

we need to realise what the martial arts are ... a tool , nothing more , nothing less

david · Post by **david** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:45 am

of our style. I suspect -- know -- that this is different for the varied practitioners of Uechi-ryu. And, indeed, may vary for the same individual over time.

I started at Mattson Academy in 1970-71, under Bob Campbell, as a young teen, and have seen numerous folks over the years reflect and think of their practice in different ways. I think it is a mistake to think that there is ONE way. The differences are what they are.

Being a psychologist, I am assume that you believe your role is to help folks find the "right" path, away from "depravity." As someone who has worked in the community/human services field, I likewise believe in providing the support/assistance for folks to find/create their way in this world. The biggest challenge for me is know myself and my motivations. Secondly, to try to understand or at least be aware that the motivations of others may not be the same as mine. Thirdly, to reconcile and work with these differences if I can. But, this last challenge is not always successfully met and we part our ways, hopefully, in a peaceful agreement to our disagreement in perspectives.

And what of the "yin and yang" in our (martial art) Uechi Ryu practice? I think this is best expressed by the Japanese notion of the "Sword that takes life" and the "Sword that gives life." Both swords are capable of ending life but the motivations for wielding each are quite different. It is imperative for those of us who want to wield the sword (through out practice) to understand our motives, our beliefs, and then to practice mindfully and with determination to wield that sword capably. This requires a steadfast honesty to oneself of what's own capabilities - emotionally and physically. These is where many fall short on side or another...

Personally, if I were to subscribe to any "spiritual" persuasion, it would be Buddism. Most folks would recognize the "pacificist" tendencies of practicing Buddhists. The notion is that in anything we do, we create a ripple effect -- karma. To avoid negative karma, calls for "right thinking" and "right action." At the highest level, the practitioner right thinking and action decrease "karmic" affects (over lifetimes) to achieve "nirvana" -- the "cessation of the (karmic) flame." Folks at this level would be rather die themselves than to kill a bug. This is a very high level of spiritual achievement/understanding. At the same time, within Buddhist teaching and tales, there is an acceptance that the "right" action of an individual, at his/her given stage of spiritual development, may be that of taking of someone's life to save the life (or lives) of others. (The letters of Takuan Soho in the book, The Unfettered Mind, are an example). While this action will result in additional karma (and rebirths), it is still the "rightest" action available to that person. The sword that gives life is wielded and used, though there be a price to the individual for that action.

A comparable (Hindu) tale is of Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna the prince was tired of war and death and ready to give up. Krishna (God) came down and spoke to him, basically to help him understand, that in this life he had a duty and a destiny to fulful. And, so, Arjuna did in the end. Perhaps comparable is Jesus crashing into the temple of the moneylenders. On the surface of it, his actions seemed very much imbued with violence.

Speaking for myself, I know I have had to use violence more than most folks (in what I think were justifiable situations). Likewise, I think I have intervened and diffused more situations that had great potential for violence. For better or worse, I wield a sword that I know I am capable of using. I have thought deeply about that sword. In my actual (dojo) practice, I don't even think of such things. I am simply letting myself be in the moment of my actions on the practice floor.

david

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:01 pm

Great post, David.

Halford · Post by **Halford** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:37 am

The mind some say should be kept sharp, like a razor,ready to cut through ignorance. If dust gathers on the sword,what then? To keep the sword clean we have to polish it,wipe off the dust, but where does the dust go? The dust will return no matter how much we wipe it. It is an endless task to keep the sword sharpened, oiled, and polished! It is a task that ends with one's death unless one bequeathes the task to another who is willing to assume it. If the mind is like a sword, then how can we keep the mind polished, dusted, and oiled?

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:13 am

Halford: Also a great post, and one to ponder.

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:56 pm

David Z. As a psychologist myself I have also thought long and hard about the "ultimate aim" of the art we teach and practice (I am a renshi/rokkudan with GEM sensei). My view is perhaps closest to David M's, stated above. Like Rick W, I say we cannot ignore that martial arts techniques were developed to be effective, even deadly, in fighting. A large part of our practice is aimed at honing just these skills. But to what purpose and use do we put them? That is the question. For true self defense (true in the sense that we do the hard and ongoing personal work necessary to know when physical force, and nothing less, is required)? Or for bullying and other forms of self-reassurance at the expense of someone else? I have not met many bullies in my thirty seven years in the Uechi world. I wish I could say there never were any at all, but I can't. But the vast majority of students and teachers I have known, including the ones you named as your personal teachers, neither promote nor practice karate as a means of misusing personal power. Let's get psychological; in my experience a substantial percentage of students find our way to the martial arts for several purposes, among them the wish to correct for an inner sense of vulnerability. Where that sense originates would be the subject of each individual's personal analysis, of course. But a martial art devoid of recognition that we are trying to promote personal strength and diminish personal weakness is hardly a martial art at all. I am solidly with Rick W's comment on this.(There is nothing wrong with yoga or flower arrangement, but noone would call them martial arts.)Like you, I see the potential for martial arts practice to enhance the 'higher angels of our being', so to speak... but why ignore or even downplay the more primitive and instinctual if it is part of being a whole person? Integrate it, control it, use it to enhance the inner fire that enlivens our practice and our day to day lives... just don't misuse it. (Remember the ad for Hai Karate aftershave; "Be careful how you use it!")

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:34 pm

Paul:

Yet another great comment.

This thread is really bringing them out.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:58 pm

Paul,

Very good. As you say, there have been a few along the way, but for the most part, our system especially, draws some of the finest people I have ever met. Abuse, whatever definition we can agree on, is the last thing that even comes to mind.

Also Abuse, brings its own kind of "retribution" so any abusive behavior, is a form of suicide in the long run.