Abusing Uechi-ryu

[Topos]

" Recall that sensei would go into a supermarket wearing a gi, and throw kicks at cans on shelves. Remember? "

I do - early 1960's.

I once went down to visit and was taken aback when he told me over a beer before his making lunch that he would wander around town in his Gi and Black Belt. I told him that one could percipitate a brawl, you might say, with such actions.

He then told of three fellows down town who came up to him to 'test' him; the following is as accurate a recount as I remember it:

"I tickled the balls of the one in front with a toe kick, spun and opened up the check of the one on my left, and hit the third in the ribs. They backed off quickly" said with cheerful glee.

I was saddened, chalking it up to the Karate Images proliferating the early 1960's. Tought that I was probably odd for thinking that this was not in line with Uechi teaching.

[Van Canna]

I was impressed that Ryan was able to actually use his pressure point, fine motor skills training while under extreme stress and while paired up with someone who is not an "average" bad guy.

In my view, Yes and No.

This is where I find agreement with Bill, that UFC matches are different than a street survival situation.

In the street, there is very bad intent, maybe homicidal intent, which is absent in UFC, and the player knows a judge will prevent him from getting maimed or killed.

So his “body alarm reactions” won’t be as extreme as in a real survival situation, where his fine motor goes out the window.

This might well be a reason why Ryan could not make his pressure point attacks work; he might have “fumbled” the attempt. He will probably ask himself that question for the rest of his life.

Something from Siddle might help

If survival training is to evolve into a science, the techniques and systems must be based upon research. The findings on existing motor skill behavior and survival literature validates the concept of simplicity, which is several thousands years old. It stands to reason, that technique and system simplicity should be a foundation of all aspects of training.

[Bruce Siddle]

The fact that Ryan's techniques didn't work doesn't surprise me. . . I would have been more surprised had he made them work against an opponent tough enough to enter a UFC event.

That is the point Stryke brought up, i.e., we don’t have the luxury to choose our opponents in the street, and two or more attackers, such as is the street fight norm today, equal “deadly force” even more so than Ryan’s opponent under a controlled event.

[Van Canna]

So we learn pressure points, and that is fine and I encourage it. But can we be utterly “confident” in their efficiency under extreme body alarm reactions, or would we be better off in some occasions to call in the “heavy artillery,” something legendary practitioners like Rabesa subscribe to?

We should ask him if he would have felt confident in trying to “tap” the punks who attacked him in Chinatown, instead of destroying them, and get back home in one piece.

A confidence that most people would lose in an actual fight. . . causing them to revert to primitive flailing?

The flailing is caused by the brain rejecting the “notion” of fine motor skills to survive, and the flailing is the result by an individual who has not “internalized” gross motor strikes along the path of Uechi mechanics.

Gross motor response can certainly be cultivated and “honed” along the lines of power and directions of Uechi-Ryu. And not to say that our “finer skills” are useless. It is all matter of judicious application.

[Van Canna]

Evan Pantazi has stated on these forums that his Kyusho techniques have been tested on the streets, under more normal and usual conditions and they worked. This information supposedly provided by police officers and other LEO who train with the Kyusho group.

No question about the fact they do work. You know I am a supporter of Pantazi, where many Uechi people are not, and have derided him over the years.

When I attended Mr. Dillman’s seminar, it was refreshing to hear the teachers say that not all the techniques will work all the time, and against all opponents.

As an example: why was it that Roy Bedard could not be knocked out by Pantazi at camp? You know the story George.

Why is it that many of Siddle and Maloney’s ukes at camp felt nothing under some serious manipulation or hitting?

I am more with what Rich said about the Marines: soften the adversary first with ppct, and then take him a different way.

I doubt that Evan or any pressure point believer would recommend training in this art alone. He would probably agree with many of us, that a strong conditioning program along with scenario training of some kind and a realistic "fallback" strategy of simple and effective gross motor techniques is desirable.

There… no disagreement.

[Van Canna]

The martial arts are based on a program of self-defense techniques, repeated until they become part of the individual. The martial arts build confidence in the individual and history is filled with confident people, lacking much physical talent, being able to perform impossible feats.

Maybe so, but we can increase the odds by blending the old with the new, and through a better understanding of the changes our bodies and minds can expect in a violent confrontation, as it will make us more at ease and accepting of the internal chaos.

People can be negatively brainwashed as well. Tell someone that what he/she is doing won't work will plant a seed of destruction within the individual that will result in failure for sure.

The trick is to educate the student to understand when what he is doing may or may not work, so he feels prepared in body and mind, in a deeper understanding of what he may be up against.

For example, at LFI, there was a discussion with a police officer who had killed a perp in a gunfight, and he recalled urinating in his trousers as the engagement went down.

The discussion centered around the fact that if people are not educated in the matters of the “chemical cocktail” such as the urinating, vomiting, shaking of the knees and so on, there is a negative “cowardly” connotation they “affix” to themselves, and need serious debriefing to get over it.

This is serious business.

[Van Canna]

that allow the student to live life to the fullest, without constantly having to look over their shoulders or seeing killers in every stranger.

True enough. And he/she will live more to the fullest with a deeper knowledge of what he is made of as intended by Mother Nature.

I don’t know of many, martial arts students or not, that constantly look over their shoulders and see a killer in every stranger.

The people who act that way are truly affected by “paranoia” which is a medical condition.

I did find this “condition” as a pre-existing condition in emotional injury investigations, where an employee at work claimed that stresses of the employment led to disability and need for treatment.

The only time compensation would be awarded, under the Mass statute, was if the stress of the employment, measured against other conditions, proved to be the predominant cause of the injury.

In some cases, the medical evidence showed this very pre-existing “paranoid” condition to be the predominant cause, and the case would be denied.

And back to the point, we are teaching awareness and not Paranoid behavior or thinking when analyzing the defensive component of martial arts, only one component, albeit a critical one, along with the many other wonderful benefits of study, as you point out.

[Ron Klein]

This is an extremely interesting thread, and very refreshing. I would like to add a comment.

For reasons similar to those in the quote from Bob Campbell (and other comments in this thread) I simply stopped suing and teaching dan kumite in my dojo sometime ago. I use various drills derived from kata and a wide variety of sources-much based on the life experiences of students, martial arts colleagues and what we have learned from victims who attend our self-defense seminars.

We have several dojos in our group who train dan kumite. Students who visit those schools must respect the instructor, students and dojo’s culture and may practice dan kumite. For dan testing some instructors require dan kumite, thus at our tests those students perform dan kumite. I don’t, but rather substitute drills and self defense techniques (going to compliance) instead as a testing requirement for my students.

There is no criticism,of whether a school chooses to teach and train dan kunite or not, but rather a positive atmosphere of exploration based on mutual respect.

[gmattson]

I agree with everything you said in response to my posts...

[Van Canna]

Hi Topos,

Did not think many knew the stories about that guy.

Now think about it. Isn’t a sensei partially responsible for such an “attitude” ? Not to sling mud at George because he did at some point sent him "packing", but because We have to be on the constant look out for stuff like this.

And you are right about the myth BS being perpetuated in those early days. No wonder so many “dorks” on the loose.

"I tickled the balls of the one in front with a toe kick, spun and opened up the check of the one on my left, and hit the third in the ribs. They backed off quickly" said with cheerful glee.

Oh well, one of the “confident” Uechi invincibles.

[Van Canna]

I agree with everything you said in response to my posts...
_________________
GEM

I am pleased because we usually have agreed about these things more than we have disagreed over the years.

It is probably my fault for not writing more clearly.

Best.

[Van Canna]

Hi Ron,

Very refreshing to see your views on this. Believe me there are legions out there that share the same thinking but are afraid to “come forth” for fear of being ostracized as second-class Uechi citizens.

I see Kumites as “training wheels” which at some point need to come off.

Many top senseis have done that, and now this includes you as a very top rated practitioner and teacher, as I know it.

The manner in which you practice makes sense, and it seems to be close to the Jiyu Kobo concept [random, full out attacks] using kata mechanics to deal with them, according to Master Toyama.

Of particular interest and unique, so far, in training methodology, I find your approach as follows

I use various drills derived from kata and a wide variety of sources-much based on the life experiences of students, martial arts colleagues and what we have learned from victims who attend our self-defense seminars.

Why did we not ever think of this?

This is really teaching genius. Maybe more of us would do well to follow your lead. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Topos]

"Now think about it. Isn’t a sensei partially responsible for such an “attitude” ? Not to sling mud at George because he did at some point sent him "packing", but because We have to be on the constant look out for stuff like this. And you are right about the myth BS being perpetuated in those early days. No wonder so many “dorks” on the loose. "

In the particular case we are both aware of the person was antipodal to GEM's (relative) humbleness [grin]). Humorously I thought it to be an example of an Uechi Electra Complex (ok, I am being snide, but I have earned that right..



You are most correct that each student exhibits the imprmatur of his/her teacher - for good or bad. As for the myths I personally did not see much of it from the Sensei. Much was brought into the dojo by the wide eyed students who were seeking the full spectrum of emotional wants. e.g., New Mystical Daddy ==> competitive sybling ==> disillusionment break-up. As a good friend who was a surgeon was wont to say "The ice water enema of reality, when properly applied has saved more lives and careers than mythologies"

It is a privilege to see the dynamic reality that you bring into the subject. It has helped me go up to -3.5 sigma [grin]. Thanks.

[Van Canna]

Topos,

I almost fell off the chair laughing so hard...

For people who are stumped by your reference, here is some interesting reading

http://www.umsl.edu/~mgriffin/psy302/Si ... mplex.html

Later

[david]

Uechi Ryu (or any art) can be "abused" in any number of ways.

The original poster was lamenting on the perceived emphasis of the "jutsu" aspects over the more the spirtual "Do" aspects. But anytime some one lacking honesty and integrity and is manipulative and in the position to influence others, and art can be abused for self aggrandizement and/or exploitation of others.

Just thinking of that Terry what'shisname who is still running around offering students enlightenment.

david

[Van Canna]

Topos,

You are very entertaining.

I thought it to be an example of an Uechi Electra Complex (ok, I am being snide, but I have earned that right..

Well, you are calling it as it was. That guy was a real prize. His workouts consisted of mainly push-ups and other calisthenics, which he would pass off for karate. It was also funny how those guys would pronounce Karate…more like “Ka-raaa-te” to give self importance. But as “tough” as he thought he was, you could not get him to free fight on the floor, guess he was afraid to be sent sliding on his face by one of our “tournament” side kicks..Not the “I fight for real” kicks they bantered about but never put on the line except against cans of beans on the market shelves.

Never tested themselves in the free for all tournaments of the sixties either.

And how about Bob Fulton? The ultimate macrobiotic intellectual. He was fond of saying that a true macrobiotic never need wipe his a** after moving his bowels. Then he would take me to his apartment across the street from the dojo and try to sell me some moldy, smell bread that he was about to throw out.

Don’t know what attracted those freaks to the Mattson academy.

You would find him reading in the dark most times.

One day I arrived at the dojo early in the day, put on my gi and walked in, and there he was in total darkness, practicing sanchin with his beard crusted with drool half way to the floor.

Scared the piss out of me, I thought he was having a stroke or something. But as they say, all is in sanchin; only I didn’t know it yet.

He was another guy you could not get him to free fight on the floor.

Then we had another guy, you might remember his name, that I had met in judo class in another part of town, and whom I sent to GEM’s dojo ahead of me by three months so I could get my money’s worth for prepaid lessons.

So when I finally joined the school, after promising GEM I wouldn’t use karate to defend myself against random attacks by killer soccer fans on the soccer field while playing for an Italian team… This guy was now talking down to me like he was a karate master after three months of training. Meanwhile when he was taking judo with me, in randori matches he always ended up on his ass.

Anyway, something made him believe that after reaching rokyu he was now well prepared to take on the fighters at the first world tournament in Chicago.

He was also the most henpecked husband I had ever met, and the cell phones did not even exist then. So he had to “tear” himself from his wife to come to Chicago with us.

He got his ass kicked in the first round and also sprained his foot.

While he was in Chicago, unfortunately his wife fell down the stairs and was injured.

When we got back he told me he was going to blame George for not preparing him well enough for the tournament, and for his wife’s fall down the stairs.

So he told George off, left him, went to Japan for two weeks to train Shotokan under Nishiyama, came back, sold his small restaurant, opened up a dojo downtown, and wrote a book about Shotokan after his two weeks in Japan. Another of those tough guys afraid to get back in the ring of the sixties.

Gem’s school was the only game in town then and it did attract all the freaks on the loose.

Much was brought into the dojo by the wide-eyed students who were seeking the full spectrum of emotional wants. e.g., New Mystical Daddy ==> competitive sybling ==> disillusionment break-up.

A real weird bunch. And they thought I was the freak, coming from the rough and tumble of soccer and judo and wanting to compete full contact on the floor, while they were doing the “Sanchin drool”

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

As a good friend who was a surgeon was wont to say "The ice water enema of reality, when properly applied has saved more lives and careers than mythologies"

This belongs framed under my Hachidan diploma…LOL

It is a privilege to see the dynamic reality that you bring into the subject. It has helped me go up to -3.5 sigma [grin].

You do me honor, my friend.