Prearranged work – do we need it?

[Rick Wilson]

Prearranged work – do we need it?


I think there needs to be some air cleared on prearranged work.

I think isolated comments in response to particular statements, or heated comments intended to address certain issues, are being taken as a total opinion.

Is prearranged work required?

I do not think there are many who would say no.

Katas are solo prearranged work. I believe in Kata. I believe this prearranged work allows you to look deeply into your Martial Art.

But this isn’t about Kata is it? This is about prearranged two (or more) person work.

Is prearranged partner work required? Absolutely.

I can see the raised eyebrows. Rick Wilson who has expressed some pretty negative views about Yakusoto Kumites said YES!

Prearranged work is there to take the principles from Kata and express them in application.

You can tell a brand new student to get off the line of attack all you want, but their first response to a punch may well be to watch it hit them.

You need a means by which to demonstrate how these principles are applied.

My school works on Kata – prearranged work.
My school has reactive kumites – prearranged work.
My school has body conditioning drills – prearranged work (check out Van’s forum.)

So it is pretty hard to claim not to support prearranged work.

So why are there some posters to these forums who question the Kumites? And since I am one of them how the heck do I do both.

Well, let me describe something to you that should elaborate some of what I mean.

I had a friend visiting a Uechi/Shohei Ryu school in town (he and the Sensei were friends).

The Sensei was teaching the Okikukai Kyu/Dan Kumite. (This is NOT a comment on those Kumites.)

The Sensei of the school was trying to teach a new student the one where the aggressor steps in with a reverse punch and the respondent steps off line, performs a Wauke then a snap side kick.

Well this student was brand new and in my mind brought some good skills with him.

You see when he punched he led with his weapon and followed it with his body. He drove right in and nailed the Sensei in the chest.

This upset the Sensei and he instructed the student he must step first THEN punch.

The student came in again the same way he had and AGAIN nailed the Sensei in the chest.

The Sensei, very upset now, made it perfectly clear that the student was doing it WRONG, and they were to step in FIRST then punch.

This time the student stepped in before punching. This gave the Sensei time to step off line and then perform a perfect and invincible Wauke ripping the young man over before he delivered the snap side kick.

So what is the problem here?

Well the Sensei has not learned the purpose of the Kumite. The Sensei has altered the way the Kumite is performed so that it will work even when he performs it wrong.

The training had gone off line and making a poor technique work was more important than reality.

Of course when the student finally attacked the “right” way the Sensei got to look really cool.

1) Teaching a Kumite without understanding the principles being taught often ends up with the principles being lost and the training false.

2) The Kumites should stay honest and not be altered to allow a bad move work.

This is why we often question the manner Kumites are being taught and if the people teaching them understand the principles the Kumites are meant to pass on.

If you know what you are teaching with the Kumites then the training will be valuable.

Okay, next point.

In the above example we see another reason Kumites can get questioned. When you do a drill over and over again you can become very good at it. You can start to look very good doing it. This gives a person comfort and confidence in how they can handle an attack.

What gets questioned on these forums often is if this is a false sense of confidence AND “looking good” has become the primary purpose of the training for some.

Another example:

I was at a school and the Sensei had invited a guest instructor in. The guest instructor was running us through a number of drills (some prearranged and some not).

These were all new to us and we looked like a bunch of klutzes doing them at the start.

Much later on when watching a video of the training I noticed that the Sensei of the school was doing different things with his partner (one of the guest’s students).

What the Sensei was doing was trying to find the drill HE did that was as closest to what was being shown as possible and THAT is what they did.

And guess what? HE looked good doing it. (Didn't learn anythign new though.)

3) Doing prearranged work too much may create a false sense of security in your abilities.

4) Doing prearranged work can build a desire to simply look good over function.

So to interject at this point if you do honest prearranged work and impromptu work you can balance this all out. That is why the tape George is doing up contains both my Kumites and NLD.

Okay, so if you train Kumites honestly and they are taught with an understanding of the principles and they are balanced with impromptu work then where is the harm?

No where.

In fact prearranged work is required to pass on the principles.

However, there are schools that only do the set prearranged work: Kyu Kumite, Dan Kumite (or Kyu/Dan Kumite) the two Kanshiwa Bunakai and Seisan Bunaki. So, yes there are those who question if this is enough to train a person to protect themselves.

Okay a final point.

I do not teach my prearranged work to the point of memorization. This is my personal approach. Even my Kumites have built into them some freedom of application.

This is my personal approach to training and it does not need to be shared by anyone.

So where is my beef? (Well, all still in Alberta – oops, sorry that should be for another forum. )

I do not teach Kyu Kumite, because it holds little value for me.

I also have issues with Dan Kumite.

For all those who love it and know the principles you wish to teach – go for it. I have no issues with you, but I don’t know what those principles are. (And I have asked numerous times on these forums for someone to write them up.)

My issue is one of time. There is a lot of material to teach.

I have a great deal of material to teach and I rotate it through my school on a continual basis. My students learn the principles and can apply them.

I know, get to the point. If my students want to test for Dan rank under the IUKF (and I don’t care to be under anything else), then they must be very proficient at performing Dan Kumite on the test. They must “look good” doing it.

To look good and be proficient they must put in the work and that takes time.

But, Dan Kumite does not fit what I teach in my school. I have tried over the past few weeks to try and adapt it to something that fits my school but it just isn’t working for me. While I am sure it could be debated the basis for Dan Kumite was to try and teach the sparring style of the time, and it just doesn't do anything for me.

It just does not fit what I do. I dislike it. I dislike teaching it. I resent the time I have to give to it so that my students will be able to test for Dan rank.

As I said this last one is a very personal issue. For those who love to do Dan Kumite there is no issue.

But this has become an issue for me and my school.

This has placed me in a very awkward position. I either have to decide to give up a great deal of time to this drill, or give up rank in my school, or give up the IUKF. (Which just doesn’t support George’s efforts for Uechi Ryu.) Sorry to throw this one out there but hey….

I think if you look at most of the comments questioning Kumites you will find they question:

1) The training methods of the Kumties.
2) The manner in which the Kumites are now performed.
3) The over training (reliance on) Kumites to teach self protection.
4) The false senses the Kumites may raise in some.
5) When looking good doing the Kumites becomes more important than their effectiveness.
6) The principles taught in Kumites.
7) The limitations of the Kumites.
8. The time to devote to drills we feel are not important to OUR training.

But, we do actually support effective prearranged drills.

The questions we raise are intended to either improve the Kumites, or the training.

The questions we raise are to enter into discussions and debate and perhaps someone will post information that may affect our opinions.

You are free to disagree.

You are free to enter the debate and discussions.

[Guest]

I've waffled on mentioning the K word for some time. Every time I try to discuss these drills I get accused of being negative. Apparently my language is inappropriate. Funny I can be called a racist, a vigilante, told I'm naive or of inferior genetic stock, and the language police are in the donut shop. But the moment a disparaging word is used in connection with the sacred K drills and they are on the job.

GEM said something on these forums , it was in regards to these drills...."God man they are only drills!" And on that we can both agree. So if they are just drills why do folks rise up in indignation when I express my displeasure with them? Why are they enshrined in the Dan test? Is it to demonstrate sparring skills, self defense skills or just the skill of doing the drill?

Rick I know you have a problem investing so much training time on this. Your comments to me at the end of class said it all. I know you are torn by this, I am too. Your dojo has so many high quality brown belts, they deserve a chance to test for Shodan. I'm willing to work this material for their sake. We have no choice. I too kind of resent the drills. I feel they are a step backwards for those training them.

Case in point…..here are some conversation from class last night.
.
"you have to be in right stance", why? "It doesn't work if you in left stance"

"your supposed to slide back and off line" I can't just close? "No!" Why not? "You will be to close to kick" Can't I just drop in the knee? "No you have to kick."

""Like this? No not a sliding step, you have to change stance going in and go back to the original stance going out.

The conversations were all about making the drills work, the drills require a great deal consent to look good. Everyone was concentrating on performing a scripted attack and response………yet their own fluid response would have been more effective.
These people have spend a lot of time and effort developing responses and now they have to turn that off and perform something less fluid something that’s about taking turns instead of filling holes and finishing.

Are these drills performed at a Dan test with a familiar training partner or do you do them with a stranger?

I felt like we were toning down our Uechi to make this drill work. I felt like everything was too far away……I hated it.

I look forward to the day everyone tests and we can put this stuff back on the shelf.
Laird

[gmattson]

Stated in a calm manner and making perfect sense.

As a Kyu/Dan kumite "believer", how can I support everything you said? Simple... Most seniors I know, believe the same things.

We dislike seeing the drills performed by advanced students, in the way you described. The problem, as I see it, is that some teachers don't see these drills as anything but white belt level training. . . which they perform in the same way, for all ranks! Therein, in my estimation, lies the problem.

Rick... You mentioned the difficulty you have trying to perform dan and kyu kumite "accurately".

Let me take you through a virtual kyu kumite set, which we work with at the "Hut":

1st level: White belt level: Slow and with the purpose of learning the basics contained in the kumite. (BTW, although we use "lunge" punches, they are performed with the student leading with the punch... Not his nose!) The "receiving" student takes one step back and one step to the side, while deflecting second punch and counterattacking. Nothing spectacular... But it is the student's first taste of combat.

2nd level: Green belt: Same punches, but fired rapidly, with no hesitation. "Receiver" learns to respond to attacks with whatever part of the circle block, necessary to deflect the attack. This is a most important part of the student's training. . . learning that the 'wauke' is not a perfect 360 degree circle, but in application may be a simple small wrist arc move. (What works is what is needed) They also learn to let their body move with the 'flinch' of a surprise attack, not fight it. (Here is where the imagination and teaching skills of the teacher comes into play.)

3rd level: Brown belt: Punches are delivered full force with speed that cannot be done using 'lunge' punches. Attackers throw two punches with one step. (essentially throwing two 'reverse' punches in the forward movement of a single step.) (Difficult to explain, but simple if you get out of the drill mode and let the punches fly... Attacker moves his body leading with the punch in a very 'realistic' manner.

4th level: Black belt: 'Receiver' and attacker confront one another, attacker talking to partner, threatening to attack, etc. while the 'receiver' hold arms up telling attacker to 'back off' etc. Without warning, attacker throws attack sequence.

Still another level is where attacker can throw either punch first.

We don't expect to see 'pretty' applications, but do expect 'receiver' to deflect the initial 'surprise' attack and 'control' the attacker with the second move.

These variations of kyu kumite allow me to work with different levels of students, in a relatively safe manner. (At green belt level we encourage students to wear chest protection, head gear and gloves)

And I would like to add my usual disclaimer: These are my understandings and I would expect to see other interpretations of kyu kumite that are even better!

Dan Kumite: I don't teach Dan Kumite with the same emphasis as kyu kumite. I use DK as a timing/speed drill only. I have students perform the drill softly and as fast as possible. There is no emphasis on 'correct' stances or posture in the full speed application.... only the trading of lightning-like punches and kicks. Once students get out of the mechanical performance of DK, they (in my estimation) get a lot of timing and distancing experience from it.

Teachers who attempt to use DK as a power fighting - in-your-face distance exercise frustrate their students with unrealistic and unworkable exchanges of techniques.

IUKF expects to see creative and workable applications within their dan candidates' DK. There is nothing as frustrating to the board as seeing black belt candidates performing DK like very strong white belts!

IUKF considers an advanced two person drill to be essential to the testing of a candidate for black belt. However, a Chapter might elect to allow their candidates to perform a drill of their choice. Currently, in New England, we require DK candidates to work with a partner of their choice and expect to see a prearranged drill that makes sense. We don't look to critique technical minutia during the performance. Again. . . that is done at the white belt - green belt level.

In my estimation, teachers misunderstand the nature of passing information/techniques from generation to generation. Our job is not to produce clones of the sensei. We use the kata to create a comfortable and workable set of basic tools which can be used for complex applications that are as unique as the individual performing them.

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting stuff!

Like you, Rick, there are things I like and things I don't like about prearranged kumite. Like you, I have an end in mind, and am using whatever tooks I can use to get to that end.

The truth is, Rick, that we have problems with the vast majority of mere mortals that practice our system. Like prime time TV, it is programmed to the lowest common denominator. The truth is that I drag my students kicking and screaming (literally) through spontaneous stuff, with very little learning going on for a long time. At some point, we need a common prearranged template to work with that we all can agree on. Why? Because we want to see if students have the basics of kata work down vis-a-vis working with a partner.

If everything is spontaneous, you never will force students to work with the kata techniques. Each person does a handful of things that work well in the confines of the sterile dojo, and few are challenged to try the more difficult expressions of the simple Uechi principles expressed in the kata. Tell me the truth on this... If we didn't have sukuiage uke in Kyu Kumite number 4(frankly most don't come close to doing this right...), would anyone ever practice applications of "hawk chases sparrow?" Would they ever "get" that applications (first the kick scoop, then the raising of the knee) can have different intra-body timing than in the generic expressions of movement in kata? Same for the shoken sukuiage uke in dan kumite. Who the heck is going to use that sanseiryu technique in freeform work in class if you don't force someone to do it? Same with the unique applications of the wauke that some call the "cross block," which allow folks to catch kicks and spin a partner. These techniques, my friend, differentiate Uechi from the generic muck most folks practice in the sterile dojo.

You nailed part of the problem, Rick. Most practitioners don't do the things right, and most teachers don't teach it right. Problem is, we can say that about any material we would have people do - regardless of the value. A small number of teachers have the experience and understanding to get the most out of good stuff. To the rest, it's casting pearls to swine. But does that mean we should give up?

Do I think there are better drills to be had? Absolutely. Have I been choreographing myself? Absolutely. Have I been avoiding typical prearranged attacks like the lunge punches that few ever do in real fights? Absolutely.

But what next?

I think you and we should keep challenging each other and the students in our dojo laboratories, Rick. There's nothing sacred about Kyu and Dan Kumite; they are recent creations. If we can come up with better material, then great.

Another thing... Is this supposed to be spontaneous? No. Get over it. Don't make yakusoku kumite something it was NEVER intended to be. Look... most don't know how to do the blocks and the stepping correctly. If we throw sponteneity into the exercise, the instructor can never work on the basics of these kata movements - against a live partner - with a student. If we don't have students do what amounts to "compusories" (using parlance from figure skating and gymnastics), we never will be able to evaluate a students depth of understanding of basic concepts - WITH a partner. Do you mean we can't just step in and do such-and-such? Absolutely. Don't like it? Then make up your own yakusoku kumite where you do that. Then teach it and see if it "sticks" in the Uechi community. And good luck on that... We're lucky we have something.

Don't give up on this; we can make it better.

On the creative teaching side, I've taken to adding variety to the movements. For black belts now, I now often use sections of a prearranged kumite as a tool to introduce new concepts. For example, I train plyometric footwork that allows someone immediately to spring back at an opponent (after diagonal sidestepping) with the full neuromuscular energy triggered by the dynamic stretch reflex. You can take Kyu Kumite number 1 as a way to show someone how to blow right back and through the opponent after receiving the momentum and delivering it back. (I believe the chi-sters like to call this jing). With a classroom full of advanced kyu ranks and some dans, everyone can pick up pretty quickly without me having to waste time getting them just to do the basic scenario. That makes it easier to cut to the chase and work on the principle du jour that I'm trying to deliver.

I see George is doing something very similar with the flinch response... The yakusoku kumite becomes a means to an end to teach this.

Another thing I do is vary the choreography with my black belts. Rick disparages the idea of everything being predictable and prearranged, and the false sense of confidence people get. How true! I love to mess up my black belts by creating little variations and circular ditties off the prearranged theme, and then making the dans do it. A few pick it up pretty quickly; the vast majority struggle. Fascinating! It's like classical vs. jazz music. Some can play that Beethoven piece perfectly, but break into a cold sweat at the thought of doing variations on the musical theme in a semi-spontaneous fashion. But this is often what jazz musicians do. They'll take a muscial theme like "These are a few of my favorite things" and play with it. Some can do it; most struggle.

And you know what? These types of exercises make everyone appreciate the genius of being able to do the theme or principle - CORRECTLY - and then break spontaneous with it. Sorry, I don't know of a better way to show it or do it. The peanut gallery can throw stones all day long, but I don't see a lot better stuff replacing it. The students are left STILL doing excellent white belt fighting, in spite of the hyperbole about their stable of champion street killers. Yea, right...

Rick, I don't put you in that category. I see you experimenting, exploring, and possibly being a part of the next educational breakthrough. Keep it up, guy!

- Bill

[benzocaine]

Bill,

I have to get back out to Richmond. Your fervor for and understanding of Uechi Ryu is inspiring! I wish I lived closer.

-Ben-

[Rick Wilson]

Well, back for more.

Whenever you have a discussion there are always two sides represented or else it is not a discussion, it is a lecture.

I would not want anyone to misunderstand a dispute on these forums for something personal.

This is not true, they are merely disagreements.

George Sensei is often left alone supporting the “traditional” (couldn’t resist ) Kumites so often, when we question the Kumites, it can get confused as questioning or even attacking George. This is far from the truth. My views and opinions are in no way personal.

These are George’s forums and while we may disagree on Kumites, I get to post my views on his forums. George is more than willing to support other approaches to Uechi Ryu by putting out videos right from HIS web site that cover ground grappling, Qigong and even material from non Uechika.

So while I clearly see little or no value in the current Kumites, and George is just as clearly adamant with the opposite views. I appreciate the voice given to all views on these forums.

You have to think about that. George is a ninth Dan Uechika and responsible for bringing Uechi Ryu to North America. I am some Canadian nobody, but he allows me a voice on his forums. That is pretty special.

I may disagree but I also appreciated the opportunity to disagree.

And so I gave away the thrust of this current post.

As you can see from my initial post I have no issue with there being prearranged work.

So my issues must be with the exiting Kumites themselves.

By the way, those who support the existing Kumites please join in. George Sensei should not have to do all the work himself

And, again, if someone says hey I do them just because I enjoy doing them, then really there is no discussion. Do enjoy, do have fun, no one has the right to tell anyone any differently.

However, these discussion forums also serve the purpose of improving our training. And that is a different discussion when it comes to Kumites.

George Sensei clearly enjoys Kyu and Dan Kumite. His efforts to add intensity to Kyu Kumite also shows he wants that training to go well beyond the white belt level.

A friend of mine, Dave Chow, had been working almost identical drills a few years ago with the intent to raise the intensity level of Kyu Kumite. I had him present this material at one of my camps. It certainly did raise the intensity level and everyone was pumped and had a good time.

So clearly that adds a certain something to the training of Kyu Kumite.

But I always come back to the drill itself and the movements themselves.

For instance George Sensei trains Dan Kumite for timing/speed. I can see the drill being performed with great speed and intensity and that has always been fun. But I am not so clear on the timing part because I see the timing as incorrect for survival.

In addition I think my view of Dan Kumite was summed up in George Sensei’s comment: “Teachers who attempt to use DK as a power fighting - in-your-face distance exercise frustrate their students with unrealistic and unworkable exchanges of techniques.”

I guess this is where I step back and say I totally agree that Dan Kumtie has unrealistic and unworkable moves and does not address the hallmark approach of Uechi Ryu as an in-your-face fighting style, SO WHY DO IT.

I know George did not mean what he said as I have interpreted it, but the reason it cannot be taught as a strong in-your-face fighting is because it DOES consist of unrealistic and unworkable movements.

So why not create drills with realistic and workable moves that reflect an in-your-face fighting style? Could THESE drills not also be used for timing/speed. Would that not be even better?

Okay so I’ll get off Dan Kumite’s back for a moment.

In my school we have a number of drills that try to build within the student certain instinctual skills.

NLD trains a person to see and fill the holes of their opponent. It teaches a person to try and close their own holes.

My students are reaching a point where they naturally strike to openings. There is no longer a lot of thought involved they just HIT.

My Kumites are designed so that the follow up are not rigid or preset. There are recommendations so that a student can learn, but the student is also free to follow up differently based on how the aggressor ends up and different sizes of aggressor. The follow ups must meet some guidelines: effective, efficient, have a natural flow and must be logical.

The effect this has on a Kumite means it may not end the same each time. Particularly when you crank up the level by telling the aggressor that after the first prearranged attack they can try to win.

Okay so where is all this heading? Well, in a Kumite that is prearranged from start to finish my students are seeing holes and openings BUT they must shut down the instinctive responses I have tried to train into them. They must shut down the skills they need to survive.

So drills like Dan Kumite (surprise ) do not work for my students because they must learn to shut down and choke off the skills they need to defend themselves. The very skills I am trying hard to teach them.

Okay, okay so I snuck back to Dan Kumite, hey the discussion wasn’t prearranged you should have been prepared for anything.

Now George Sensei has opened a door a little crack for my other personal issue by saying there is some leeway for Chapters to go different directions, and I will have to look at that through the appropriate channels. That is certainly an open minded approach from the IUKF that isn’t always there in organizations.

I must close by repeating the question: Why not create drills with realistic and workable moves?

Why would we train a drill that does not at least have these two things?

And worse yet why call it a prearranged fight?

[gmattson]

to boxing....

For instance George Sensei trains Dan Kumite for timing/speed. I can see the drill being performed with great speed and intensity and that has always been fun. But I am not so clear on the timing part because I see the timing as incorrect for survival.

Whats with this fascination for jumping rope like a girl? Whats that got to do with fighting?

And those stupid speed bag drills. Weeeelllll

And how about those guys who pound on the heavy bag? That bag can't punch back and hell... it doesn't move anything like Mike Tyson... And I wonder how those pussies would make out if that heavy bag was Mike Tyson!

Lets get back to the way "Tiger" Longarms created boxing... no gloves, no sissy jump ropes, funny little bags hanging from the ceiling and boy.... would he ever laugh at the though of punching a fat bag filled with rags... that can't move.

Lets get back to the realities of boxing!

[david]

George sensei,

I've never read such a provocative use of words by you...

OT-- Is the Xmas party still on? I would love to make, depending on kids' schedules, etc. Haven't seen anyone in quite awhile and should catch up.

david

[Deep Sea]

George, you forgot Tae Boxing, the REAL martial art.

I do all the Uechi-ryu basic drills with lower-ranking students, all the time, and the way I learned them in the sequence I learned them in from the 70s when they were considered all-important. For more advanced classes, depending upon the theme for the week or the makeup of the class, I will either drastically abbreiate them or skip them altogether and replace much of that time-slot with stretching.

For GEM's Saturday morning class at the Hut, although comprised by mainly senior students of many years, I believe Junbi Undo and Hojo Undos are absolutely essential. One of a number of reasons comes to mind: George is teaching teachers.

So for me anyways, to use as a tool or not is a flexible decision that changes according to both need and demand. I just don't like to throw away tools that are useful.

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

Allow me to play devil's advocate so I can advance the understanding of your thinking.

George Sensei trains Dan Kumite for timing/speed. I can see the drill being performed with great speed and intensity and that has always been fun. But I am not so clear on the timing part because I see the timing as incorrect for survival.

I don't get this, Rick! Is the problem the exercise or is the problem your execution of the exercise?

I often bring up the issue of "strawman arguments" in discussions. Several on these webpages are masters at it, and one must wear a wide-brimmed hat and high boots to keep from being buried in their flying straw. To my point, you see lots of people "leading with their noses" and doing punches in a metranome-like fashion when attacking. Fine... But just because they ****** at their kumite doesn't mean the kumite are bad. It just means they ******. Give them a newfangled exercise and these permanent white belts will stink the place up with them too! So don't show me a bunch of hackers doing poopie kumite and then walk Mike Tyson into the room and say we should be ashamed for thinking of doing the kumite.

Get to the specifics of what you mean on this timing thing, Rick. What is wrong? What would be the right way? What is it about these specific yakusoku kumite that prevents one from practicing "correct timing?"

In addition I think my view of Dan Kumite was summed up in George Sensei’s comment: “Teachers who attempt to use DK as a power fighting - in-your-face distance exercise frustrate their students with unrealistic and unworkable exchanges of techniques.”

I guess this is where I step back and say I totally agree that Dan Kumtie has unrealistic and unworkable moves and does not address the hallmark approach of Uechi Ryu as an in-your-face fighting style, SO WHY DO IT.

Have you seen the WKF-style fighting that half the world loves to do? About 5 years ago I felt like a lone wolf on the pages arguing with Gary Khoury that this venue was nice but... Me against the young glamor boy and his buddies. Rick, this venue is NOT in-your-face fighting. People spend most of their time at great distances and come in long enough to score a point. Is this unrealistic fighting? In many ways yes, but in many ways no. SOME fights are like that. SOME aspects of this exercise are transferable to "real street fighting." And it's fun for a young buck to take his skills and go up against folks from other styles.

Have you seen some of my discussions with Joey about the MMA fighting? I come out again as the lone wolf against "the new kid in town" and more hangers-on who want to be on his side. Are protracted battles on the ground realistic in most fights? Not if the average fight involves being against more than one person! Sure, watch me spend 2 minutes grappling on the ground to get an elbow lock with your buddy patiently waiting to take his turn against you. Not going to happen! But are SOME fights like this? Absolutely. Can you take SOME aspects of this venue and bring them into real fights? Absolutely.

BTW, no disrespect meant to Gary and Joe. I yank their chains BECAUSE they are competitors and know how to take it. And I am the first to go work with them face-to-face and humbly gather what I can from their experiences. Action does more to express your heart than words. 'Nuff said.

it DOES consist of unrealistic and unworkable movements

Be specific here, Rick. Exactly which moves do you consider unrealistic? Lunge punches? Yup, I hate them. But what are you going to teach a while belt to do to prime the partner pump? This lunge punch is a common currency in martial art partner training. It *****, but it's something. What new tool could we instead use?

Personally when I choreograph partner exercises, I prefer using sliding steps and reverse punches, or some common fighting equivalent. It drives the traditonalists nuts (at first) learning to punch like that. Must be all the classroom learning they have to unlearn. But it soon results in a very different partner exercise. Very interesting!

What's your beef, Rick? Be specific.

In my school we have a number of drills that try to build within the student certain instinctual skills.

NLD trains a person to see and fill the holes of their opponent. It teaches a person to try and close their own holes.

My students are reaching a point where they naturally strike to openings. There is no longer a lot of thought involved they just HIT.

Where's the DVD? Hmm??? Make it and I'll buy it.

My Kumites are designed so that the follow up are not rigid or preset. There are recommendations so that a student can learn, but the student is also free to follow up differently based on how the aggressor ends up and different sizes of aggressor. The follow ups must meet some guidelines: effective, efficient, have a natural flow and must be logical.

I've seen kumite like this; they are not new! You should come up with a nice package of them and do a DVD - as I said before.

Need help?

Okay so where is all this heading? Well, in a Kumite that is prearranged from start to finish my students are seeing holes and openings BUT they must shut down the instinctive responses I have tried to train into them. They must shut down the skills they need to survive.

Bull$h!t! This isn't the fault of the exercise; this is YOUR problem.

I do this all the time, Rick. This is what separates the white belt practitioners and teachers from the black belt practitioners of prearranged kumite.

Mind you now, you have to work up to this. Most don't For crying out loud, every day I wonder what kind of minds people have, or what level of effort they put into this stuff. Giving them a new exercise doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get more out of it if they put the same half-a$$ed effort into it too just so they can pass their tests and teacher can collect their money. But I digress...

Once a person has the thing down so it's totally second nature, well THEN the fun begins. Why aren't your students OCCASIONALLY going for some of these openings they see, Rick? If these openings are there, then perhaps the practitioners aren't doing their kumite correctly.

Yes, this can get out of control. One must remember the scenario and intent you are attempting to practice. Changing the scenario gets off subject. Is this a problem for you?

But as an example, I'm forever pegging people in the face when they attempt to do their roundhouse blocks (using both arms) too close to me. Why occupy both your arms on my leg and leave your face that close to my hands? I can't resist. I remember ticking George off one day when he saw me swatting someone in the face with my fist; I was ruining the point of his teaching session. But hey, you can't accuse me of not plugging holes when I see them! And there is no excuse for you not doing the same; I do it all the time. George does it too! He bops people in the nose when they first step and then punch. Good for him!

And you know what happens when people do this? Their fighting improves! They learn - one sequence at a time - not to leave those holes when they attack and when they block. This is the whole point of yakusoku kumite, damnit! It's not what you do, it's HOW you do it! Soon the practitioners start looking like...UECHI fighters. Imagine that!

Mostly distance Uechi fighters, yes. But you know what? Uechi Ryu works in all ranges; don't ever forget that. We just happen to be a style where - in contrast to others - we do REALLY well up close in bad-breath range. And that happens to be a common fighting distance.

I must close by repeating the question: Why not create drills with realistic and workable moves?

What's stopping you, Rick? You have a camera. I now have a camera and computer to download and make the DVDs. Wanna work together back-and-forth until we come up with something new? Worst thing that could happen is that everyone ignores the exercise, and say they hate it!

- Bill

[gmattson]

Talked with Pat Saunders yesterday and she said the party will be held. Quite a few teachers and students live near Stow and will be there.

Brockton is being 'hammered' right now (9:30AM) and so far, not a snow plow in sight. But by this evening, the snow should be over and the roads cleared.

Hope to see everyone tonight at the Stow Christmas party.

[Deep Sea]

I'll try to get there tonight, GEM, but this little, soon-to-be-replaced SUV [Super, Undefeated, and Vicious] Rogue Hawg is one Hog-tied pig-in-a-blanket right now. Was holding off winter storage until after the Polar-bear run tomorrow, but instead, for last evening's event, purchased enough canvas yesterday that could supply Old Ironsides with enough material for a new main sail.

[Guest]

or what level of effort they put into this stuff. Giving them a new exercise doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get more out of it if they put the same half-a$$ed effort into it too just so they can pass their tests and teacher can collect their money.

Bill I'll be honest your Pissing me off! I'm on record as not big on these drills. But your statement suggests, I , my dojo mates, and my Sensei are looking for the easy path. Your suggestion that Sensei Wilson Runs a McDojo is an insult to all of us.

Laird

[Bill Glasheen]

Laird

Sigh....

Rick wrote:

Whenever you have a discussion there are always two sides represented or else it is not a discussion, it is a lecture.

I would not want anyone to misunderstand a dispute on these forums for something personal.

This is not true, they are merely disagreements.

George Sensei is often left alone supporting the “traditional” (couldn’t resist ) Kumites so often, when we question the Kumites, it can get confused as questioning or even attacking George. This is far from the truth. My views and opinions are in no way personal.

...

By the way, those who support the existing Kumites please join in. George Sensei should not have to do all the work himself

I responded.

Allow me to play devil's advocate so I can advance the understanding of your thinking.

And so there you have it. My comments that followed were nothing more than that - an effort to stimulate discussion so we all could understand just what it is people like and do not like about the specific yakusoku kumite in question - kyu and dan kumite. It was an effort to turn a lecture into a discussion - as requested.

Perhaps, Laird, you do not understand the fine art of debate. In a debate competition, you often are asked to take a side on a subject that you don't necessarily support. In a court of law, a lawyer is asked to defend someone that (s)he doesn't necessarily believe is innocent. Your job is to make the best argument possible and convince the audience or "the jury" of the cause or case. The best debators can regularly take the other side and convince others through thoughtful and logical discourse. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in a little passion in the process.

If I was going to take a side in this discussion - as I and others were invited to do - then I'm not going to pull punches. And you know what? The comments I made are justified - regardless of whether or not I actually like or dislike Kyu and Dan kumite. I and others have seen some pretty $hitty kumite performances over the years at dan tests. How can anyone honestly knock something that they put no effort into? It's unconscionable. On the flip side, I've seen some brilliant performances come from dojos such as Steve Perry's, and I haven't seen anyone knocking the fighting ability of members from his dojo.

Rick is both my friend and someone I respect a great deal. I can understand how you might not have read the line of discussion carefully enough to have figured out this was debate for the sake of understanding. But for Christ's sake, I was virtually agreeing with him in the beginning until he asked others to speak up for the other side.

Rick, I don't put you in that category. I see you experimenting, exploring, and possibly being a part of the next educational breakthrough. Keep it up, guy!

Does this sound like an individual I would disparage in this discussion?

I sincerely regret this misunderstanding. I am deeply saddened.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

Well, things certainly have lived up here haven’t they?

I said posting on these forums was like conditioning. The weird thing about when I do the advanced drills is when I hit and the stop attack hurts I hit harder, so guess what?

George:

Well, yes you make some good points that not all drills have to be directly related to fighting. They simply have to build the foundation skills to be used.

This is an absolutely valid point.

Perhaps this is my misunderstanding of the purpose for these Kumites.

You see they have always been presented as “Prearranged Fighting”; therefore that is, in my mind, what they should represent.

If, they are drills to simply provide or work some other skills to be used later in fighting, well then this is a different topic.


Hey Bill glad somebody its trying to give George a hand. Good for you!

“Allow me to play devil's advocate so I can advance the understanding of your thinking.”

Ah Bill we always know when the devil’s advocate phrase comes out there will be a small personal dig quickly to follow. Just kidding.

“I don't get this, Rick! Is the problem the exercise or is the problem your execution of the exercise?”

“But just because they ****** at their kumite doesn't mean the kumite are bad.”

You know there have been a couple of these comments that aim at my skill doing the Kumite Dances.

Well, I did Kyu Kumite on every test right to brown belt and passed.

I was working on Dan Kumite for my Shodan but two weeks before I tested we changed over to the OKIKUKIA Kyu/Dan Kumite, and shock Bill I passed.

The comments on my Nidan test was that it was almost technically perfect, so I guess my performance of the Kumite Dance passed mustard there as well.

For my Yondan Test David Mott Sensei thought my Dan Kumite was good enough and I will take his word for that.

So to imply that my dislike for the Kumites have something to do with not being able to perform them, all this by the way without ever having see me do the Kumite Dance is well, just a little bizarre in my mind. Perhaps we think they ****** because they do?

I hope my testing history has at least alleviated some of your concerns Bill. I can do them Bill I really can .

“Get to the specifics of what you mean on this timing thing, Rick. What is wrong? What would be the right way? What is it about these specific yakusoku kumite that prevents one from practicing "correct timing?"

Gee I thought the many postings I have made on this forum have covered much of this but how about a couple of quick points:

Timing: My turn your turn I wait until you are done. (Right way: my turn until you take it away.)

Timing: Block THEN counter. (Right way: STRIKE while avoiding using the “block” to deflect and control.)

Timing: I move but do not follow up. (Right Way: Always follow up.)

That is just a place to start.


”Have you seen the WKF-style fighting that half the world loves to do? About 5 years ago I felt like a lone wolf on the pages arguing with Gary Khoury that this venue was nice but... Me against the young glamor boy and his buddies.”

Interesting and confusing why this is in here particularly, because I have posted on your forum that the WKF training is not for me either because it is not what I consider to be up close and personal Uechi. So I guess I missed your point.

“Have you seen some of my discussions with Joey about the MMA fighting? I come out again as the lone wolf against "the new kid in town" and more hangers-on who want to be on his side. Are protracted battles on the ground realistic in most fights?”

Again not sure what MMA has to do with the Kumite discussions. You’re not trying to hijack my thread are you Bill?

But since you brought it up I have also expressed that I do not believe the ground is where you want to be in a real fight. I have also quoted Tony Blauer that while in a NHB match they are really fighting it is NOT a real fight.

Just as with the WKF guys I respect the hard work and the guts to step up but …. Ah the Kumites?


“Be specific here, Rick. Exactly which moves do you consider unrealistic? Lunge punches?”

Well before I get to the example you handed me on a sliver platter let’s look at Dan Kumite number three (some have already altered this move to try and correct the fault so forgive me if this isn’t how you do it):

Rather than my aggressor and respondent terminology I will use attacker and defender because in Dan Kumite that is what they are. For the background on these terms look up my other posts, and that reflects the mindset behind the drills as well as well as the difference in my thinking to the one behind this drill.

Attacker: From left Sanchin steps in with a right reverse punch (and of course stops although not much has been done to stop him – sorry snippy remark.)

Defender: From a left stance steps off to the left with their left foot into a right Sanchin. Then they throw a right front kick.

Attacker: Get this, they step back and to the right with their right foot and down block the kick with their RIGHT hand. Obviously the defender is not kicking to penetrate or the unrealistic flaw would be clear because they actually try to avoid this kick by moving more into the line of attack. Again they do nothing else. I have a friend Dave Chow whose front kick “points” out this flaw in a hurry. OOOW those spiky toes he has.

Defender: Throws a left roundhouse kick. (More on this when I get to Bill’s example of the Dan Kumite flaws.)

Attacker: Uechi Cross blocks the kick, does nothing else and disengages.

Disengages! If I have to explain the flaw here well, I give up.


“Where's the DVD? Hmm??? Make it and I'll buy it.”

“I've seen kumite like this; they are not new! You should come up with a nice package of them and do a DVD - as I said before.”

As I have said before I do not think anything is discovered in MA just rediscovered. So I never claimed it to be new, just better.

As you well know, the video for both my Kumites and NLD is coming out shortly. THANKS FOR THE PLUG.

“Okay so where is all this heading? Well, in a Kumite that is prearranged from start to finish my students are seeing holes and openings BUT they must shut down the instinctive responses I have tried to train into them. They must shut down the skills they need to survive.

Bull$h!t! This isn't the fault of the exercise; this is YOUR problem.

I do this all the time, Rick. This is what separates the white belt practitioners and teachers from the black belt practitioners of prearranged kumite.”

Well Bull$hit right back at you, Bill. You are right everyone has tried to play with the Kumites to imbibe them with something worthwhile. This is not new either.

But when you do it on a test you have to have the dance steps right or you don’t pass; to do that you must work the dance steps.

Simple question is Dan Kumite representative of how we are to do Uechi? If not why not?

“Mind you now, you have to work up to this. Most don't For crying out loud, every day I wonder what kind of minds people have, or what level of effort they put into this stuff. Giving them a new exercise doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get more out of it if they put the same half-a$$ed effort into it too just so they can pass their tests and teacher can collect their money. But I digress...”

Work up to it? Wonder what minds we have to give new exercises but HEY BILL I thought they weren’t new. Ha ha just poking you.

I have put a lot of time in on the “traditional” Kumites, Bill. I have tried very hard to find the value in them.

I have asked repeatedly for someone to walk me through Dan Kumite pointing out the principles taught in each part of each move.

Bill, you have a copy of my Kumite tape and you know I can tell you each principle for each individual part of each and every move.

Hey everyone is free to attack, shred, and criticize the principles I talk about on the video all they want, but at least I know what I am teaching. (And feedback is always helpful.) I hope the people who see it feel free to comment. Well, actually I hope they all buy a copy then criticize it.

I don’t claim them to be the “be all end all”, but I think they represent the basic white belt principles of my school.

So, someone, please take a shot at Dan Kumite. Take each move and go through what principle is being worked.

As for some advanced stuff we do go to Van site and read on the advanced body conditioning. These are clearly prearranged work and can be broadened into Kumites when follow ups and exchanges are added but they are not prearranged. These are just a few of the drills we do.

The responses they generate many interesting approaches, but of course you have to work at them for years and years to understand them and if you don’t you are doing them wrong. Just kidding, that’s just the devil without the advocate? Sorry.

“Once a person has the thing down so it's totally second nature, well THEN the fun begins. Why aren't your students OCCASIONALLY going for some of these openings they see, Rick? If these openings are there, then perhaps the practitioners aren't doing their kumite correctly.”

Again WE must be doing them wrong – sheees do you have web cam set up for my dojo?

If there are openings? I guarantee there are always openings.

Go for them occasionally, hey why train part time?

It would not the be occasional taking of an opening that would bother me but the ones they missed.

I guess I just disagree entirely. A prearranged drill says punch here at this target now. Is that target open? Who cares if it is open? Learn to throw punch there anyway.

“But as an example, I'm forever pegging people in the face when they attempt to do their roundhouse blocks (using both arms) too close to me.”

Excellent example of the fault in a prearranged drill.

If they are too close for a roundhouse why are they not throwing a knee?

Because the dance step did not call for it.

This happens in either number three or number five when the partner does not provide that extra (realistic?) distance need for the other partner to kick.

So really, Bill it would be the person being kicked who did the Kumites wrong. (There is that devil again.) Or rather didn’t do it wrong so the dance steps would work. (oops and again. )

And of course we now have taught our students the wrong distance for kicking.

“Mostly distance Uechi fighters, yes. But you know what? Uechi Ryu works in all ranges; don't ever forget that. We just happen to be a style where - in contrast to others - we do REALLY well up close in bad-breath range. And that happens to be a common fighting distance.”

Don’t remember saying Uechi didn’t work at all ranges?

Is this how you would apply UECHI at these ranges? I don't think so.

And of course are we not the style that fights in a phone booth? And which Kumite, Kyu or Dan, would that one be?

“What's stopping you, Rick? You have a camera. I now have a camera and computer to download and make the DVDs. Wanna work together back-and-forth until we come up with something new? Worst thing that could happen is that everyone ignores the exercise, and say they hate it! ”

Well I have started with the tape George is kindly coming out with and I hope to follow it with others on the other drills we work.

Thanks for the kind offer of help Bill, but I actually have plenty of help up this way. Appreciated, but I find distance collaborating too hard.


Ah, don’t you love when things heat up on a thread?

Isn’t this so much better than everyone either agreeing or staying silent?

Good mental exercise and I love when we all get snippy. (Sorry I’ve come to like the new TV show Joan of Arcadia where God presented himself to her as snippy because that is what she understood.)

Okay, next up for some fun.

I love it.