conditioning

[hoshin]

hey Joe.
i just wanted to ask you to clarify you comments on conditioning/ pounding.
did you mean that there is not much of a physical difference between those who do and those who don't do conditioning?
i would agree that if someone "babys" the conditioning it is virtualy useless. you wont see ( or feel) any difference in your body.
however if done correctly you do actually get results that are mentally measurable.
i agree that people may lose sight of the why....
if for no other reason it will allow you to increase the intensity of your sparing and training. over time you will be able to train with full force punches and kicks to specific body parts and also not hesitate to use weapons like shin to shin kicks. i feel it just opens up a whole new world on training.
i trained in the martial arts for 10 years before starting in uechi we did no conditioning. then i started in a uechi school which focused heavily on conditioning. more then most uechi schools. so from my prespective of having done both methods, i will never train without it again.

steve

[MikeK]

May be a dumb question, but what the heck are you all talking about when you say "conditioning"?

[Mills75]

I must say I do believe that Shushiwa was incredibly strong but In all honesty I have a hard time accepting that he could hold the weight of two adults on the fingertips of his outstretched arms. I feel that this may have been a case of a story being handed down for so long that it became somewhat exaggerated as it went through the years.

Who knows for certain maybe he did do that ! I just feel it possibly could be exaggrated although I'm sure he was incredibly strong. In one Of Gushi Sensei's tapes it talks about people having fingers so strong they could penetrate into an enemies flesh and they could tear the bark off trees and all these kinds of things but most as it says and as I believe were certainly exaggerated a bit.

But want to make clear that I'm in no way doubting Shushiwa's ability and strength. Just this one account I feel may have been blown up a bit. One guy in the beginning tells another he holds two heavy buckets of rocks and then the next says two kids and the next one who tells the story says he shot lightning from his eyebrows and held up two elephants lol..You get the idea! But who knows ! I do believe he was one incredible master that was one of the very best though for certain.

It's like that commercial that's been on television recently where all the kids are eating at the lunch table at school. The one kid sitting next to the main character named Johnny starts whispering to the other kids down the line that Johnny got an Oreo cakester and by the time it reaches the other end of the lunch room the last kid stands up and yells...lol...WHAT JOHNNY GOT HIS FIRST CHEST HAIR LOL..

[Joseph G Bellone]

Just to clarify, when I used the term conditioning I was thinking of these attributes:

Strength - the extent to which muscles can exert force by contracting against resistance (e.g. holding or restraining an object or person)
Power - the ability to exert maximum muscular contraction instantly in an explosive burst of movements. The two components of power are strength and speed. (e.g. jumping or a sprint start)
Agility - the ability to perform a series of explosive power movements in rapid succession in opposing directions (e.g. ZigZag running or cutting movements)
Balance - the ability to control the body's position, either stationary (e.g. a handstand) or while moving (e.g. a gymnastics stunt)
Flexibility - the ability to achieve an extended range of motion without being impeded by excess tissue, i.e. fat or muscle (e.g. executing a leg split)
Local Muscle Endurance - a single muscle's ability to perform sustained work (e.g. rowing or cycling)
Cardiovascular Endurance - the heart's ability to deliver blood to working muscles and their ability to use it (e.g. running long distances)
Strength Endurance - a muscle's ability to perform a maximum contraction time after time (e.g. continuous explosive rebounding through an entire basketball game)
Co-ordination- the ability to integrate the above listed components so that effective movements are achieved.

Pounding is defined by me as Kotikite exercises done in traditional Uechi-ryu.

I believe that "pounding" has its place in the training of the art. I agree with Hoshin that it can have great benefit from a mental confidence factor.

However -

I do believe that "pounding" and getting hit in a sparring situation are two very different things.

If you are sparring and have to resort to "tightening up" as you would do during Kotikite, you probably need to work on one of the other components of how I define conditioning, i.e. movement.

How much pounding? It depends. It's another tool in the workshed for people to use.

The real question to me is what do you want to get out of your pounding?

Good training,
Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com

[Chris McKaskell]

Interesting - thanks for clarifying that - I wasn't following...

Most of the people I work with use the word 'conditioning' when refering to multitude of excercises (not just kotikitae) used to toughen one's body.

Not just pounding -- rubbing and resistance too -- which also help develop sensitivity as well as toughening.

Other people I work with use the word 'conditioning' to refer to cardio/strength/endurance/flexibiltiy training. With them I use the same excercises, but refer to them as 'toughening' drills.

Words and context - crucial to understanding one another!

Obviously, toughening/conditioning training can be pretty controversial in some circles - nevertheless, I use it and ultimately find it improves all aspects of my humble little practice.

[Dana Sheets]

Hey Jeff,
They didn't say how much the two people weighed! Remember that in 19th century southern China most of the men would have weighed ~120-140lbs or less given that the average height was somewhere between 5'3" and 5'5" and most people were eating little meat.

---------------
I view conditioning as everything mentioned. I think Joe provided a wonderful explanation of the various attributes a good fighter needs. Personally if I didn't do regular hand, foot, and body pounding I have no idea how I'd survive regular training. My understanding of this kind of conditioning is that it is whole body, just like any other kind.

[hoshin]

i would agree with Joe that standing in a sanchin stance letting someone punch and kick you as you flex the muscles is far different then getting hit during sparing or in real life. for this reason i do more then that.
level one would be like i discribed standing in sanchin while someone hits you or you do kotekitai arm pounding.
level two would be moving, as in a sparing situation and having your partner target the areas you are working on. having that round kick hit your thigh HARD during mid step with the foot still in the air. you have to learn to flex and release the contration of the muscle very quickly.
level three dont flex. over time i found if i flexed the arm muscles tight during arm pounding i could not work with newer students. they just couldnt do it. so i started working on leaving the muscles relaxed. it was a new idea for me and found it very benificial for me as well.
i would still like to hear from the medical people out there about resting to rebuild or not.
steve

[Dana Sheets]

from crossfit.com

GENERAL PHYSICAL SKILLS
If your goal is optimum physical competence
then all the general physical
skills must be considered:
1. Cardiovascular/respiratory endurance
- The ability of body systems to
gather, process, and deliver oxygen.
2. Stamina - The ability of body systems
to process, deliver, store, and
utilize energy.
3. Strength - The ability of a muscular
unit, or combination of muscular units,
to apply force.
4. Flexibility - the ability to maximize
the range of motion at a given joint.
5. Power - The ability of a muscular
unit, or combination of muscular units,
to apply maximum force in minimum
time.
6. Speed - The ability to minimize the
time cycle of a repeated movement.
7. Coordination - The ability to combine
several distinct movement patterns
into a singular distinct movement.
8. Agility - The ability to minimize
transition time from one movement
pattern to another.
9. Balance - The ability to control the
placement of the bodies center of
gravity in relation to its support base.
10. Accuracy - The ability to control
movement in a given direction or at a
given intensity.
(Ed. - Thanks to Jim Crawley
and Bruce Evans of Dynamax,
www.medicineballs.com\)

[CARLOS SENSEI]

Hi Dana , Hi to all:
a good illustration of conditioning in the Dojo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDxzGrmJfpQ

[Joseph G Bellone]

Carlos,

Thanks for sharing the video. What was interesting and very important was that there was a combination of exercises, both weighted and body weight, along with the traditional pounding exercises.

Also, what was extremely important was the intensity of the exercise and the effort being exerted along with it.

Thank you for sharing.

Best regards,
Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com

[CARLOS SENSEI]

http://uechiryukenyukai.free.fr/

video to complete this sale
go to page sensei Takeshi Takayasu. this link.
for who knows how to see, there is much to learn there.
happy to take the clip

[robb buckland]

".......They didn't say how much the two people weighed! Remember that in 19th century southern China most of the men would have weighed ~120-140lbs or less given that the average height was somewhere between 5'3" and 5'5" and most people were eating little meat........"

Oyama knocked out (sickly baby) bulls with one strike....

With regard to conditioning .........when I spar with 'kickboxers' they usually complain because I dont wear shin pads (they are nice to have though if your a little to overzealous with your conditioning early in the class and still have to "put your rounds in" before you leave.)Makes it so ya can play again the next day !!