Women Fighting/Eye Contact

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:31 pm

It's a big subject

.eye contact and moving away when sparring are not the same thing. When you "stare somebody down" as you see in professional boxing matches it is a lot more than most karate folks could take.it's a kinda dominance thing.and it is something you need to learn...if you can do it well then you can stop somebody dead in their tracks.............with sparring IMHO you need to do light and continuos sparring, and you need to know that when you spar against a blackbelt or senior grade that you are not going to get your head handed to you on a plate. It takes time to "learn" how to fight.
I've told the tale many times of the black belt that I knocked out

.some folks don't like me telling it, maybe it reflects badly on them

.but I was sparring with this guy and he kept sticking nukite fingers in my eyes, I told him to stop.then I threw a kick real light and he did a takedown and I carried on sparring and he sneered at me "When I throw you you stay down"

....now remember I have this little white belt on and he's got an extra long black belt with all little red stripes on it......then more fingers to the eyes.............I said stop that.and another sneer......soI chinned him and he went down like a bag of scheitt

.nowyou should never be in a situation like that, certainly as a white belt......and in my first karate club that would never have been tolerated in fact the very same thing happened.high grade Jap started abusing lower grades...and got a head butt for his troubles ( not by me though

.by my teacher

)

unless you bring folks on real slow and let them gain confidence in a friendly environment then they will never be ready to step up a grade and use equipment sparr full contact or be empowered enough to train on their own with weights and train the moves and the katas on their own

one of the very real problems with martial arts and some instructors is that they are trying to strengthen their own ego and make themselves bigger, rather than just teaching....I've been fortunate I've trained with some really firt class folks who put my instruction first

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:49 pm

It's a big subject Smile .eye contact and moving away when sparring are not the same thing. When you "stare somebody down" as you see in professional boxing matches it is a lot more than most karate folks could take.it's a kinda dominance thing.and it is something you need to learn...if you can do it well then you can stop somebody dead in their tracks............

Ive always thought that kind of useless actually. I mean yes, show no fear.

But watch Arlovski(i so spelled that wrong) and GSP, and often they will stare at their opponents chest. They arn't aiming for the chest or focussed on it, their looking at that point so they can see all of their opponents weapons.
Rick can do the same thing but with looking between the eyes.

Staring someone down is great when you know their prey. It can re-enforce your ego when you see someone showing fear.

But against a predator? Nah.

I tried this schit with Randy/Laird a few times, i found i got everything turned around on me psychologically. They had superior mindset so i guess they had the advantage in those terms.

I don't think you need eye contact to fight. Really, you dont always have to look at someones eyes.

Now shying away? Yeah thats not good.

Not committing? Yeah thats not good.

But thats different.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:26 am

I dont do the eye contact thing conciously , most of the time I dont focus and take in the general , usuually if directed I`m looking at the throat area .

not interested in a staring contest , there are folks that`ll steal your soul if you play that game .

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:45 am

Stryke wrote:I dont do the eye contact thing conciously , most of the time I dont focus and take in the general , usuually if directed I`m looking at the throat area .

not interested in a staring contest , there are folks that`ll steal your soul if you play that game .

You mean guys like him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMqo5nMCM0

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:44 am

Nah I was thinking more real world , but I`m sure he means it .

it`s the intent that the eyes gives away , it`s not about the eyes it`s the intent .

and yup thats going to be red rag to a bull with folks like Laird and Randy , they smell intent and respond in kind .

kind of goal were discussing here .

I always find a smile works wonders on the agressive screwed up face staring whackos , a calm face or one unimpressed can work wonders(depending on goals) , but thats another topic , And just personal experience .

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:00 pm

It's one of those things that you really need to know

....and mainly for the real world.....I wouldn't try it on Mike Tyson, but if it's never been done to you then you won't realise just how overpowering it can be....my teacher called it Kiai of the eyes.....and he could do it so well.that after he had done it you really found it hard to look at him again....in a real fight I wouldn't focus too much on anything.I'd try and go periferal.....but a real fight isn't a mma match or a boxing match and a lot of things besides physical skill are used

Norm Abrahamson · Post by **Norm Abrahamson** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:55 pm

I appreciate all the replies and good ideas. The problem with eye contact wasn't that they weren't looking the other fighter in the eye, they weren't looking at them at all. They turned away from the fighter so they could only see them using peripheral vision.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:12 pm

Well INMHO the girls need a lot more time light sparring, maybe just moving around throwing light kicks and punches at the guys without them responding.then slowly let the guys respond lightly

.......I don't think that this is just a female problem.....it's a bit like training a dog

......in my first karate school there were girls there that you hated to sparr with.........because they went straight for the privates or the eyes.....no hesitation.and they weren't gentle

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:12 am

jorvik wrote:Well INMHO the girls need a lot more time light sparring, maybe just moving around throwing light kicks and punches at the guys without them responding.then slowly let the guys respond lightly .......I don't think that this is just a female problem.....it's a bit like training a dog ......in my first karate school there were girls there that you hated to sparr with.........because they went straight for the privates or the eyes.....no hesitation.and they weren't gentle

Ive never sparred with female karateka other then a few in my class(who are NOT prey)

, but ive also sparred with TKD chicks more then once.

They seem to go all out. Which is good.

HOWEVER: It became painfully obvious that they were used to sparring with guys that held back on them. The moment i cranked up a bit, they became very very tentative.

I'm a big fan of starting light then going harder afterward to build someone up and progress them. Obviously you wont go all out one someone when they first join.

But if you go light all the time and coddle ANYONE(both men and woman) then they may get used to be coddled. At some point, you have to put more pressure on, whether man or woman.

I think it's a disservice to give a false sense of confidence, that can easily be stripped away when some more friction is added.

Chris McKaskell · Post by **Chris McKaskell** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:42 pm

What about trying light sparring blindfolded? You know, like 'eyes closed sticky hands' but with feet and full movement as well. Maybe the issue is partly visual so by removing that stimulus it might free them up to and help to slowly train them to face the threat full on.

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:04 pm

it`s the intent that the eyes gives away , it`s not about the eyes it`s the intent .

BINGO!!!! and intent = mindset. Where is Van in all of this conversation!!!??? He can tell you all about that!

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:08 pm

Quote
"HOWEVER: It became painfully obvious that they were used to sparring with guys that held back on them. The moment i cranked up a bit, they became very very tentative.
I'm a big fan of starting light then going harder afterward to build someone up and progress them. Obviously you wont go all out one someone when they first join.

But if you go light all the time and coddle ANYONE(both men and woman) then they may get used to be coddled. At some point, you have to put more pressure on, whether man or woman.

Well I don't really understand where you are comimg from here

.....................sparring isn't fighting it is learning to fight, or rather learning an aspect of fighting

.learning to move...it is just one of many training methods and is no better than heavy bags or hook and jab pads or general fitness. Going light is the only option to some folks............many women would be horrified at the thought of having to fight full contact..............with or without equipment. So light sparring is the only real option for them, and it is a good option because it teaches them to focus on targets, and it also teaches them control and they can be corrected if they do bad techniques.............aside from that full contact or light sparring there aren't any sensible options.

I think it's a disservice to give a false sense of confidence, that can easily be stripped away when some more friction is added."
absolutely agree here...the upermost thing that I have found is fitness if you ain't got that then you've got squat.and the specific fitness that comes from hitting bags and pads and light sparring takes some time to get

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:56 pm

Im not saying full contact, just hard contact. there is a difference.

Even MMA fighters don't go all out full contact every class when sparring.

They either go light or go hard.

On sparring in general: If you slowly turn up the dial in sparring, it's a great way of doing mindset.

Of coarse, scenareo drills are great, hell we do them in WKS.

But first you need to be able to commit to what your doing int he drill and you should know how to follow up with strikes/grapples.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm

just a little bit more than your opponent can handle , and continually ramp it up .

I can spar with chldren and full contact MMA guys , and everything in between .

but of course this takes skill and control , and a respect/realisation that your not going to get snotty and knock someone out if you cant handle it , and a secure enough ego to say whoa back down I`m not comfortable .

but if your not training mentally your comfort levels , and how to handle violence , your really not doing MA

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:21 am

Stryke wrote:just a little bit more than your opponent can handle , and continually ramp it up .

I can spar with chldren and full contact MMA guys , and everything in between .

but of course this takes skill and control , and a respect/realisation that your not going to get snotty and knock someone out if you cant handle it , and a secure enough ego to say whoa back down I`m not comfortable .

but if your not training mentally your comfort levels , and how to handle violence , your really not doing MA

Ignoring everything i wrote and read this.