8 years for SUV arson

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8 years for SUV arson

Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:09 pm

More than a few of us feel strongly about things. And then there is that class of folks - many who walk among us - who are a little over the top in their responses.

In case you didn't know, Cal Tech is considered by many to be the top engineering school in the country. (Bostonians would argue for MIT, I'm sure.) But IQ and EQ are two entirely different characteristics of a person's mental function.

BTW, think you are safe in your SUV with all eco-terrorists caught? Guess again. The ambulance-chasing lawyers can be found in large numbers trolling for dollars. 8O

- Bill

Student sentenced to more than 8 years in SUV arsons

LOS ANGELES (AP) — A Caltech physics student convicted of helping to firebomb scores of sport utility vehicles was sentenced to more than eight years in federal prison and ordered to pay $3.5 million in restitution. A federal judge Monday rejected William Jensen Cottrell's plea for leniency.

"There's no way I'd ever be involved in anything like this again," Cottrell said. "I won't ever even jaywalk again."

However, U.S. District Judge Gary Klausner said Cottrell had engaged in domestic terrorism and "we're very, very lucky" that no one was killed in the arson attacks.

Cottrell, 24, was convicted in November of conspiracy to commit arson and seven counts of arson for an August 2003 vandalism spree that damaged and destroyed about 125 SUVs.

Cottrell was acquitted of using a destructive device — Molotov cocktails — in a crime of violence. That was the most serious charge he faced and it carried a sentence of at least 30 years in prison.

Vandals who targeted dealerships and homes in the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles set the vehicles on fire and used spray-paint to deface them with slogans such as "Fat, Lazy Americans," "polluter," "smog machine" and "ELF," an acronym for the Earth Liberation Front, a radical environmental group.

Prosecutors estimated the total damage was about $2.3 million.

Cottrell hung his head as he was sentenced to 100 months in prison.

The judge said he felt sorry for Cottrell, a doctoral candidate in the physics department at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena.

"What a talent to have wasted," Klausner said. "There's only one person to blame for that, and I'm sure Mr. Cottrell understands that it's him."

Defense lawyers argued that Cottrell had agreed with two friends to spray-paint vehicles, but was surprised when they began to hurl Molotov cocktails.

Federal prosecutors have identified former Caltech students Tyler Johnson and Michie Oe as "fugitive co-conspirators" in the case. It is believed that both have fled the country.

Cottrell was arrested in March 2004 after authorities tracked e-mails that Cottrell, using an alias, sent to the Los Angeles Times. He told the newspaper in the e-mails that he was involved in the SUV attacks and affiliated with the Earth Liberation Front.
- USA Today
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Postby Guest » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:23 pm

This idealist negatively impacted the finances of over 100 families...he got a light sentence as far as I'm concerned.

His total disregard for other peoples beliefs and values feelings and safety warrants a harsher punishment as far as I'm concerned.

I hope mister flame experiences gettng raped and a line up of men filling his mouth with unwanted body parts. Maybe then he can reflect about how wrong it is to impose your will or values on others.

Hmm I guess I'm an eye for an eye king of guy. But this smart ass doesn't have a fine vehicle to violate so we have to work with what he has.


As far as I'm concerned hey's not the poor misguided youth he's a warped eco terror monger and deserves a quarter of a century of penal life to rehabilitate and reflect.

If he doesn't learn during his residence in the big house at least he's messing with other charming folks and not exploiting the innocent
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Postby IJ » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:38 am

"His total disregard for other peoples beliefs and values feelings and safety warrants a harsher punishment as far as I'm concerned.

I hope mister flame experiences gettng raped and a line up of men filling his mouth with unwanted body parts. Maybe then he can reflect about how wrong it is to impose your will or values on others."


Whoa. Easy. Vandalism and arson are bad. But our Constitution and our common sense suggests that serial rape is an absurd and cruel response to a crime, especially one in which no one was injured.

Feelings? Beliefs? Values? Please. There's no law against disregarding these in the USA, to my knowledge. Otherwise we'd have jailed the Pope if he crossed our border--he offended my beliefs and feelings, though I never wished him ill for it. One of many offenders, but somehow I've struggled on.

This guy is guilty of property destruction and risking people's safety. That's all. Well, and being stupid--if he was so worried about the inherent waste and air pollution and gas consumption of these poorly designed, wasteful, largely unnecessary machines, molotov cocktails were certainly not the brightest way to counter them.
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Postby Van Canna » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:32 am

Vandals who targeted dealerships and homes in the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles set the vehicles on fire and used spray-paint to deface them with slogans such as "Fat, Lazy Americans," "polluter," "smog machine" and "ELF," an acronym for the Earth Liberation Front, a radical environmental group.


Gained any weight lately? :lol:

Well, I guess my Mini Cooper is safe. 8)
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Postby Guest » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:19 am

IJ wrote:Whoa. Easy. Vandalism and arson are bad. But our Constitution and our common sense suggests that serial rape is an absurd and cruel response to a crime, especially one in which no one was injured.
Ian I'm not advocating the state rapes him. :roll: We both realize that schit happens in prison. When you lock a bunch of bad folks up together they perpetrate their evil on each other. Thats okay with me. Most punishment is not tough enough as far as I'm concerned.

This guy doesn't care about the other members of society. He has sought to impose his will through violence. He was convicted of over 100 bombings. You might like to sugar coat it Ian, but the bottom line is he's a serial bomber. He got off far to lightly. Hey I think there are folks serving longer streaches for smoking drugs.

Don't give me a lecture on your constitution and common sense. As far as I'm concerned if there was any common sense involved in your penal system, prisoners would not want to return to being wards of the state. But many of them eat better and live better inside than they do on the outside. Doesn't make much sense to me, the experience should be distasteful so folks think about getting sent there Your going to talk to me about common sense when folks with a few a few grams of hashish serve longer terms than serial bombers...give your head a shake.

Don't give me the well, no on got hurt crap! I don't care if no one got hurt, the potential was there. People could have been killed in the explosions, fireman could have been injured putting out these fires and citizens yould have been involved in traffic accidents with the reponding equipment.

Blowing things up is against the law. I believe folks should be convicted of breaking the law and not for the results of their actions.

If you go to jail for attempted murder it involves a sentence. That sentence should not be reduced because your inept. If criminal "a" trys to kill someone botches it and only leaves his victim with a head ache he should get the same sentence as criminal "B" who tried to to murder botched it and put his mark in the hospital for a couple of weeks.

The term should reflect the crime and not the result of the crime.

I do believe in the land of the free many citizens could have just shot the guy if they had caught him advancing with an explosive device in his hands. Maybe 25 years of prison life is a light sentence compared to what would have happened if he had been caught in the act.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:36 pm

Cruel and unusual punishment aside... :shocked!:

Cottrell, 24, was convicted in November of conspiracy to commit arson and seven counts of arson for an August 2003 vandalism spree that damaged and destroyed about 125 SUVs.

Cottrell was acquitted of using a destructive device — Molotov cocktails — in a crime of violence. That was the most serious charge he faced and it carried a sentence of at least 30 years in prison.

{snip}

Defense lawyers argued that Cottrell had agreed with two friends to spray-paint vehicles, but was surprised when they began to hurl Molotov cocktails.

Federal prosecutors have identified former Caltech students Tyler Johnson and Michie Oe as "fugitive co-conspirators" in the case. It is believed that both have fled the country.

We may never know the truth of the matter. But by the law, he got convicted of vandalism but not of firebombing. IF all he did was spraypaint vehicles - and the guys who fled the country did the serious damage - then perhaps 8 years was about right.

- Bill

P.S. No risks here for the Mini, Van. Ride on!!! :wink:
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Postby IJ » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:44 pm

Somehow I don't think there's a relevant distinction between calling for the state to rape someone and wishing rape would occur as part of a state sentance. I think there's one good thing to do about rape/torture and that's to speak out against it and stop it. It does nothing for me to say that you didn't run him over with a train, you just tied him to the tracks and hoped a train was coming. If this were a woman, convicted of the same, would you seriously have written, and I quote: "I hope [ms] flame experiences gettng raped and a line up of men filling [her] mouth with unwanted body parts"?

"Hey I think there are folks serving longer streaches for smoking drugs."

I bet. But drug policy in this country is insane and provides no sound basis for comparison. At least there's no advocacy for torture in it.

As for punitive prison in general, my dad just retired from a long career in the state prison system of Maryland. And he can tell you the political and public taste for punishment here is an exception. They're reasons for it, but I've seen no good evidence "deterrence" helps anyone. For death oto work, people would have to think, oh, if I got caught in state A that'd be ok since it's only life, but I won't kill in state B because it's death. And I don't see that happening. Other countries, particularly european ones, have rehabilitation models. Are their societies different and more homogenous? Yeah. But prison is part punishment and, if its cruel / only punishment, part training ground for future offenses. Shortsighted if you ask me.

"The term should reflect the crime and not the result of the crime."

Here we're agreed. But I'm willing to take it farther than you are. Never mind how bad is the headache, I think shooting to kill is the same as killing. But try convincing the US justice system.
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:15 pm

Here's another idealist that just might end up living in the house with all the bad men. So what do you think? Is promoting murder a hate crime? In my country if he advocated killing people because they were jews or blacks etc. he would be locked away. But he's targeting medical profesionals, students and trappers.....not a race so he's done no wrong and walks amoung us. .....until he kills

I'm sick of terrorists and those who advocate terror. Seems to me country's are invaded for these activities, yet we allow our own citizens to do the same and look the other way. WTF.

Anti-sealing group denounces director's comments


(CBC) - The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is dissociating itself from comments by one of its directors who condoned assassination as a means of protecting animal life.

Founder Paul Watson -- who earlier this week supported Dr. Jerry Vlasak's position on the society's board of directors -- issued a statement Thursday, saying the society does not condone violence against sealers.

"We are a non-violent organization," Watson said in an interview with CBC News. "We certainly don't advocate threats against anybody."




Vlasak was barred from entering the United Kingdom after he told a 2003 conference in the United States that he supports assassination of animal researchers as a means of stopping animal-based research.

"If these vivisectors were being targeted for assassination, and call it political assassination or what have you ... strictly from a fear and intimidation factor, that would be an effective tactic," Vlasak said at the time.

In an interview this week with the CBC, Vlasak did not back down from those remarks, and he said he also supported violence against sealers.



"Are these people comparable to people that chop up animals in laboratories just to further their academic careers? Yeah, I think they're all abhorrent in a certain way," he said.


"The comments made by Dr. Vlasak do not represent the policy of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society," the society said in its statement Thursday. "The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society disassociates itself from these views."

Elizabeth May, the executive director of the Sierra Club of Canada, said Wednesday she would quit an advisory post with the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society if Vlasak did not resign.

After that statement, Watson said May was free to resign, and he said he would not "condemn" Vlasak.

In an interview with the CBC on Thursday, however, Watson said he now has more information. He said his board would meet imminently to discuss whether to ask for Vlasak's resignation.

Meanwhile, Vlasak -- who did not back down from any of his previous comments about violence -- has blasted CBC's coverage of his views.

He said his comments were not comprehensively reported by CBC, and that he was not speaking on behalf of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

"What an unethical breach of journalistic integrity," he wrote in an e- mail message, adding that he had repeatedly described the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society as a non-violent organization.

"I didn't expect much from a Newfie, but you have hit a new low for one-sided reporting," Vlasak wrote.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:15 am

Oh my... Pickle-brained Vlasak and Wacko Watson hold a special place in my heart.

I love it when these "anti-vivisectionists" spout off such ridiculous crap. Their own insanity undermines them much better than I ever could.

There's an old saying - Better to keep your mouth shut and make them think you ignorant rather than speak and remove all possible doubt. :lol:

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Postby IJ » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:13 pm

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... y_s_finger

Working on the assumption this serial sue-er falsified her claim...

Our SUV arsonist got over 8 for 2.3 million in damage to SUVs... this waste of carbon is going to get a max of 7 million for attempted theft of millions (in her planned lawsuit) plus losses of many millions more to the Wendy's franchise due to bad publicity. Sooooo irritating that lazy people with nothing to offer society end up draining so much from it. She should work off her debt (under supervision) until it's paid, in my mind.

Hey I wonder if any of her lawyers checked out her ligitation history and thought twice about helping her pursue previous claims?
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:33 pm

Ian wrote:Hey I wonder if any of her lawyers checked out her ligitation history and thought twice about helping her pursue previous claims?

Silly boy... Since when are you going to find "ethical behavior" in this pack of pond scum? Furthermore, since when would any lawyer politican pass legislation that would make attorneys financially responsible for the consequences of their unethical behavior?

It's all about Sutton's law, Ian. The deck isn't stacked in favor of either the plaintiff or the defendant. It's all about how much money the trial attorney can get. With that in mind, there's a way to fix all that. But it isn't going to happen.

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Punishing the Mentally Ill, Yet Again

Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:13 pm

Greetings Gents,

Sorry to make it late the the party. This case has made the headlines on the left coast as well, where we got a little more background on the case.

The articles out here indicate that this gentleman is indeed somewhat messed up in the head......He was said to be suffering from a form of autism known as aspergers syndrome.

Not that that should stop him from getting gang raped.

I think the old saying goes, "Boys will be boys" which I guess exonerates us from doing anything to stop any despicable act that we really agree with, like Gang rape.

Who can logically argue that the worst criminal can be reformed? And since letting 'em rape each other ad nauseum is on some level, I guess, subconsciously desireable , there seems to be significant support of that methodology.

Has criminal justice evolved at all in the last 100 years? Is there any nation that incarceates more people than we do? Did soviet russia incarcerate as many people as we do? What about Apartheid era south Africa, did they inprison as many people as we do? (not per capita or in absolute numbers).

Lock em up. punish em to no end. Dont bother give en em health care and/or education, and be real surprised that recidivism rates are sky high.

Here in Cali where get tough on criminals is big business (25 years to life for misdemeanor, so called, "third strikes"-we have had guys get 25 years sentences for a stolen video tape), gov schwarzennegro decided to take on the prison union to reform the prisons cuz God knows those prisons werent reforming nobody. thank God Gov Arnold is taking on this problem cuz we al know that he wont be accused of being a "girlie man" on crime if more humane approaches are chosen.

I wonder sometimes.........I wonder why rape is bad, but humor about rape is acceptable.


http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting".

By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody (the rhythmic and intonational aspect of language). Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:57 pm

Good to see you, Akil. I missed you in my 2 trips to San Diego. Too bad... We had brother Ian, Paul Haydu, and Jerry MacDonald there on both occasions.

I am familiar with Asperger's Syndrome. It can really be a problem. One very dear friend of mine had a daughter with AS who would inappropriatelyn introduce herself to people, try to introduce her mom to strangers, etc., etc. I worried about her. But the sweet thing of it all is she came up and hugged me first time I finally met her. 8) PC or no PC, it felt good! And of course I meant well.

As for some of your statements, well... I want you to be careful here. I'm going to call you on a few things not because I believe you ARE wrong, but because I believe you have no reason to believe your statement is factual or relevant.
Akil wrote:Has criminal justice evolved at all in the last 100 years? Is there any nation that incarceates more people than we do?

Of course this is a rhetorical question and I don't have the answer. But I will say that it is improper to compare the U.S. to any other nation.

First, we are probably the most diverse nation on the planet. Diversity creates issues.

Second, we are a brain drain at times (and that is good), but we also attract the rejects and whackos from other countries. You didn't up and leave Old Europe if there wasn't something odd going on at home. Those making it likely decided that the going was good. So we selectively got a lot of adventurers, thrill seekers, rejects, oddballs, etc., etc. Sometimes that's good, and it's likely been a key element of our national success. But it also means that we're going to be harboring some bad guys now and then.

Third, this is the land of opportunity, and not the land of entitlement. There are those who make it, and those who don't. Competition creates success, but it also means some losers are going to do some bad things. Their choice...and not my problem so long as they understand there are consequences to bad choices.

And finally... Good luck on "reforming" those who weren't born with a full deck. That's all well and good if you can do it. Unfortunately you don't have a lot of science on your side here.

But understand that I want tax money first to go to those who make the right choices. Let's improve education and support job growth. The losers come last, and that's the way it should be. And I will not shed too many tears for them.

Akil wrote:Lock em up. punish em to no end. Dont bother give en em health care and/or education, and be real surprised that recidivism rates are sky high.

Oh puulleeeze! :roll: The incarcerated get better (free) health care and (free) meals than the working poor in our nation. I know... The Virginia Blue Cross and Blue Shield plan that I used to work for provided for their care. I used to keep track of how much was spent and what was done. If you only knew...

Many think they have it TOO good. And I wouldn't argue with them.

- Bill
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:44 pm

But Bill they are just victims of their environments, it's not their fault, they shouldn't be punished they should be saved :roll:

You don't mind more being spent on housing these unfortunate souls than the average American earns in a year do you? :silly:

So what do we have right now 2 million plus "products of society" being boarded at the moment? And they broke the law to get housed, and by all accounts, many continue to do so by carrying illegal weapons, doing drugs, and raping or beating their fellow prisoners.

Glad your tax burden is helping to help these poor souls.

Probably the only thing that is a deterrent to them robbing folks when they get out is everyone’s wallet is so light from paying for their stay it’s hardly worth their efforts.

I hope mister flame experiences getting raped and a line up of men filling his mouth with unwanted body parts. Maybe then he can reflect about how wrong it is to impose your will or values on others.

Hmm I guess I'm an eye for an eye king of guy. But this smart ass doesn't have a fine vehicle to violate so we have to work with what he has.
When I wrote this I knew there would be the backlash from the PC crowd. I also new that Ian would rise up as the defender of men’s right to say no. :roll:

The fact that I acknowledge that prison rape is a fact of life and suggest that if it's going to go on it might serve to stiffen (no pun intended) Cottrell’s sentence, Cottrell's eight years might be harder time. (That’s not a pun either) I suggested strongly that this guy needs a sentence to reflect the crime he has committed.

Now I could have said:

“I’m saying that even though I see his sentence as light for the crimes he has committed. I hope the unpleasant experience of a visit to prison will cause him to reflect and that he discovers some remorse for his action and compassion for his victims and he returns to us as a contributing member of society!”

I just choose to say it a little more graphically. :lol:

The response from the PC wing...your advocating state sanctioned rape. That’s BS folks, I'm advocating tough time and sentences that match the crime. Thought that was what this thread was about.

I mention prison rape and I'm cast as the bad guy, promoter of sin. Cut me some slack, you all know it's a fact of prison life. So where is your indignation, the protest the lobby to end prison rape? Huh? Ohh it's only bad if we talk about it. Just keep it in the closet and it will go away huh. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. Don't waste your time running at me over prison rape,I'm not doing it. You don't like it do something about it. :splat:

Prison is a terrible place to have to go. Prisoners get gang raped and prisoners get beaten by groups of prisoners. Prisoners get shanked by prisoners. If you go to prison there are very good chances of bad things will happen to you. If you go to prison there is also a chance you may never return.

It’s these kinds of horrors that keep the average Joe on the straight and narrow. Now we have a smart ass idealist who was never going to get caught going to live in the big house. Maybe the horror of it all will be his cure.



I wonder why rape is bad, but humor about rape is acceptable.
who's joking about rape Akil? I don't think what has been said is funny, do you?

I joked once about turning dead bodies into oil, you called me a racist. Now I'm talking crime and punishment and you think I'm joking. You have a most unusual sense of ha-ha.

Turns out it was as I suspected http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=13743
We can turn dead folks into oil…well that will sure cut costs next time you have an invasion! :multi: :lol:

The science of waste management it's a wonderfull thing! :wink:
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Postby IJ » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:10 pm

Almost not worth replying to, but I can't resist.

First, not everyone who writes in to speak out against prison rape is writing from some padded chair in the library of an ivy league college (lest anyone get that impression). At this moment, I am actually writing from my lunch break during a clinic day at... a san diego jail, one of two I work out of.

Second, it's preposterous that all you meant was that you wanted prison to be a deterrent. People who want that say things like this: "I hope being deprived of his freedom and hopefully being asked to work off his debt to society in jail is hard enough that he thinks twice about such a crime in the future." They don't write graphically about rape.

Third, rejoicing that someone might get gang raped (and who knows, later die a miserable death later) is not "acknowledging" prison rape. That sounds like this: "prisoners have a real chance of getting raped in jail." That's even an indifferent statement, of course. Most people wouldn't make light of the problem or would denounce it.

Fourth, regarding state sanctioned rape, no one's implied that you asked the STATE to rape the convict. BUT if the state knowingly puts people in a situation where rape is a known problem and does nothing about it, that is state sanctioned rape. As it turns out, the state has to provide medical care to inmates--hence, I'm working at jail today. And yesterday. NOT providing routine care is a form of punishment we don't permit. NOT providing relief from rape clearly falls under the same heading. Do nothing, dont care--> pay the price in lawsuits. I would support prisoners who faced this aspect of their sentance if the state were not trying to keep them safe in such an endeavor. You don't do this, particularly in a nation that affects judeo christian values. There's a lot of tough on crime like this from people who posit themselves as having a direct line to jesus (NB: not addressing anyone in particular), and its a sad joke that he'd be truly appalled at such conditions.

Fifth, its nonsensical to imply that someone is a hypocrite to speak out against an injustice without having some kind of active political campaign against it. Reread the last two sentances in the above paragraph for more on real hypocrisy.

Sixth, the death-sentance, or prison rape, or whatever, as deterrent concepts are overrated. People spend half their time complaining about prisoners being coddled, the other half on how jails are nothing more but training grounds for more crime. Abuse people and they stay or become abusers. Reap what you sow. Ask me, prison should be very strict, hard work, little freedom, some time to reflect AND at all times be respectful / humane to the inmates to maintain some chance of rehabilitating them. They must also have SOME chance of learning while in jail to give them SOME chance of earning meaningful employ on release. Otherwise, it's like keeping a maneating tiger captive a year and expecting it'll revert to hunting waterbuffalo on release. Just asking for trouble.

THIS recommendation I'm basing on my father's just ended >30 year career in prison education and the highest attendance at international prison education conferences he was aware of.
--Ian
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